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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/16/2009 8:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | Corey:
So yes, Satan was a self. He wasn't a "negative third" ... the drunk along for the ride in the back of the wagon. No, he was in the driver's seat, but intentionally driving the wrong way, and without the epistemic distance that might leave room for "forgive him, for he knows not what he does." His defiance was maximal.
And yes, the overall self, the whole package (with emphasis on the particular Actuality that is uniquely his, and Possibility thus entailed), that would endure the flames of judgment would likely be the "least self". Eternally, he will not have -- both qualitatively and quantitatively -- the sort of stories of faith to offer up in his worship of God. He won't be able to "cast crowns" as, say, the 24 elders do.
This is my mental picture here. I like the idea, Corey, using "crowns" to symbolize the quality and quantity of beautiful experience given to God and Creation via the responsible "faith actions" of created beings.
It would be like this:
Mother Teresa: 12 well-jewelled crowns
Tom: 10 average-jewelled crowns
Dwayne: 4 average-jewelled crowns (Man, could've done better...oh well. )
Hitler: 1 partial jewelled crown
Satan: 1 jewel (He did do good stuff before he fell, right?)
All of the people will have their crowns (linked to their "stories of faith" for this life in their retained, tranformed ego) and will cast those down before God forever. As far as THOSE crowns go, things are eternally set. This is NOT to say that more crowns cannot be gotten because everyone will have an ETERNITY with God to do an INFINITE amount of "works of Love." However, what happened pre-Judgement is what happened and that stays on the record, as it were.
With this, these things...
1) ALL the crowns are cast before God, whose Eternal Glory and Infinite Splendor eclipses all of the jewels of all of the crowns of all of the people. And everyone knows that. God is the ultimate equalizer.
2) Like Edwards talked about, the empathetic joy that exists in each heart makes the whole "who has more or less crowns than me" totally irrevelant to any ways that people will think, because of their "perfect happiness" in God.
3) Everyone's intensity of beautiful experience of loving relationality with the Trinity makes everyone totally satified in God, which means that the "crowns" are RELATIVELY MEANINGLESS to everyone anyway. Through one's contingent expressive ability may change and expand, one's complete aesthetic satisfaction in God DOES NOT change, as it is always "full" and abiding.
So, plugging all this in,
I see Satan who, at the beginning of the End, doesn't have any "crowns to cast" before God concerning pre-Consummation existence, and lacking that much "self". However, I also see 1) an eternal possibility for Satan to get more crowns that he currently has (which is true for everyone) and 2) Satan, even without any crown, being totally satisfied in God by God's loving Presence in his very life.
Can you see this, too, Corey?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life." | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/16/2009 8:16 AM (GMT -6) | | D: This is my thought: Any time that we make any decision without 1) directly and immediately involving God's Holy Spirit's Presence and previous working and 2) grounding every motive in and checking every motive for unconditional loving service for God, neighbor, and self, that decision will, to that degree, be the "wrong" decision.
T: Don’t wanna get off onto pacifism way over here. But more to the point, let me ask it this way while I got you here:
Can you imagine any situation in which our choosing to employ violence would be consistent with both your (1) and (2)?
My personal belief is that the Person of Jesus did nothing without (1) and (2). Thus, I have to believe that the Jesus, by His Holy Spirit, was involved in...
1)Jesus cursing the fig tree and it dying,
2) Jesus using force to remove the money changers from the temple,
3) The Spirit blinding Simon Magus
and
4) the Spirit killing Ananias and Sapphira.
So I at least have to be open to divine "force-unto-violence" being demonstrated in such manners.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/16/2009 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | D: I see Satan who, at the beginning of the End, doesn't have any "crowns to cast" before God concerning pre-Consummation existence, and lacking that much "self". However, I also see 1) an eternal possibility for Satan to get more crowns that he currently has (which is true for everyone) and 2) Satan, even without any crown, being totally satisfied in God by God's loving Presence in his very life.
C: I still speculate that "crowns" are something special to this life, as the sort of trials of faith that one must endure here aren't available there. Actually, this goes a long way in my own inner working out of the problem of evil. God in his grace those that would accept it a chance for something special and eternally enduring; correspondingly those that wasted these opportunities eternally miss out.
I'm linking crowns to "works of Love". There will be some "crowns" that can only be procured in this life, where "faith, hope, and love" all still inhere. When only "love" remains, there are STILL crowns to get, just not the "trials of faith" variation from this life. Basically, Satan, Hitler, and every other evil being will have an eternity to do "works of Love" and be more and more "personalized" from those works.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 2/16/2009 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | We're able to say so much MORE in the end when you're in the conversation Corey. Dang.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/16/2009 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
D: What does objectively "missing out" on something really mean when one doesn't FEEL or BELIEVE that they are "missing out" on anything, because they are completely satisfied?
C: Really, I hold these to be independent topics. They can "miss out" without be "less satisfied". Those aren't necessary entailed in each other.
I understand what you are saying. I'm talking more existentially. Some people would say that the "losses" ain't really losses if they are not meaningfully linked to the felt intensity of their beautiful experience with God. But you are not saying that, right?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 2/16/2009 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Some people would say that the "losses" ain't really losses if they are not meaningfully linked to the felt intensity of their beautiful experience with God.
T: Sounds like you're talking about me. Ha!
Mad love ya'll.
Don't know what I'd do out here in this desert without this site.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/16/2009 9:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Just had a flashback thought. I remember back in Waco at Greater Mt. Olive Baptist Church back in the late 80s, I once heard someone say something like this...I think it was one of the deacons...anyways...
Lookie here, I don't care if I'm the LAST person to get into heaven, and I'm a beggar when I get there...no mansions, no crowns, nothin. I don't care who has more than me when we get there. Just as long as I get in so I can see Jesus and be with him forever. That's all I want.
I've remembered that ALL this time. THAT'S the sensibility I'm talking about. Where the rewards simply don't matter.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 2/16/2009 10:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I know what you're saying, D. It's along the line of "willing one thing" and you know I'm all over that. But it may be an unnecessary over-correction to say, "the rewards simply don't matter." The point of the rewards, as I see it, it to have more to employ in my worship of my "one thing". The rewards aren't the goal, but neither should they be diminished in importance in regards to our next life.
I don't think it diminishes the importance of the rewards/losses to say, like you seem to be saying, that "gaining" or "missing out" in such a way is relatively independent of one's felt intensity of their beautiful experience with God, and the "satisfaction" that comes from such. The rewards/losses (not the goal) are ACTUAL and have influence on the contingent expressive ability of the created being...but have NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on one's being satisfied in God (the goal) Just like you said...
D: What does objectively "missing out" on something really mean when one doesn't FEEL or BELIEVE that they are "missing out" on anything, because they are completely satisfied?
C: Really, I hold these to be independent topics. They can "miss out" without be "less satisfied". Those aren't necessary entailed in each other.
and...
I do think whether or not one is "satisfied" eternally is an independent topic from rewards. I don't believe that those that weren't faithful in this life will eternally be "unsatisfied" or something like that. No. Lacking a positive does not entail incurring a negative.
I wonder what Tom thinks about this...hmmm... 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life." Post Edited (One Love) : 2/16/2009 9:32:44 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/16/2009 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | A thought.
Maybe this is what can leave some people more open to annihilationism than to EUR.
I think people would have a better time of thinking of Satan (and other evil persons) as annihilated after all the evil he's done...rather then thinking of Satan being eternally beautified and satisfied in the enjoyment of God's Presence...like the Apostle Paul, Mother Teresa, and other saints.
I mean, if Satan gets the "same prize" as everyone else, when all is said and done, then what fun is that? What (get this) JUSTICE is that? Annihilationism's the way to go. Satan (and other evil people) doesn't get the prize of eternal life and enjoyment of God, and this forms the important line of distinction of the "haves" and "have-nots"
Heh. I think this goes better with human sensibilities of punitive justice.
Whatcha think?
Hmmm...brainblast...
I just had a thought about the Prodigal Son from the standpoint of punitive justice. I could easily see the Elder Brother's perspective from that standpoint. How in the world would it be "just" for the Prodigal to be restored to full status and full enjoyment of rights as a son, giving him JUST AS MUCH stuff as the Elder Brother, who had always been toiling and working for his Father. Heck, even the Prodigal HIMSELF thought in those terms, wanting to be merely a servant and not a Son because of his actions. I pretty much think that IF the Prodigal had come back and been accepted as a servant (on the Prodigal's terms), that would have been just fine for the Elder Brother. Some type of enduring punishment is in order that will ever distinguish the Prodigal's status from the Elder Brother's. Just fine with him indeed.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life." Post Edited (One Love) : 2/16/2009 11:31:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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