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Tom
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   Posted 2/17/2009 12:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror [or “through a glass dimly”]; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Three parts:

Our present condition: vv. 8-9, and 11-12a. The phrases “in part,” “imperfect,” and “seeing through a glass darkly” describe our present life. If you wanted a good biblical example of ‘epistemic distance’ this is it. We know ‘in part’. We know enough (and don’t know enough) for this present life.

Our future state: vv. 10b, 12b. The phrases “imperfection disappears,” “putting childish ways behind me,” “seeing face to face,” and “knowing fully as I am fully known” all describe out future state.

The coming of perfection. Whatever this is, it marks the transition from our present condition to our future state. When ‘the perfect’ comes, we’ll mature out of (the analogy of v. 11) our present “imperfect, childish ways” characterized by “partial” and “dark” (or “obscure,” the Greek of “darkly” or “poor reflection” of v. 12 is literally “in an enigma”) knowledge. We will “then” (making it future, subsequent to the “coming of the perfect”) “know fully, even as we are fully known” which is “seeing face to face.”

-----------------

Anybody see anything interesting here?

I thought it was interesting that in v. 8 Paul says “knowledge” will pass away I (presumably with the coming of ‘the perfect’). But at the same he says that when the perfect comes “I shall know….” Well, if you “shall know fully,” it’s not the case that “knowledge” per se passes away. A certain ‘kind’ of knowing passes away. And as he explains it, it becomes clear. What passes is mediated knowledge. We see “di’ estropon,” or “through a glass/mirror.” But then…what? Face to face. Not through a better glass/mirror, even a very clear one. Rather, face to face. Nothing standing in between. Unmediated. In other words, when Paul says “knowledge will pass away” he’s saying “we won’t use maps anymore.” And when he says we’ll nevertheless “know as we’re known” he means our knowledge (of God) will be experiential and direct. We’ll live IN THE TERRITORY of God without need of MAPS. This may be the ultimate fulfillment of the new covenant that Jeremiah foresaw: “They shall teach no more every man his neighbour, saying, ‘Know the Lord’, for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them.”

I’ve said a lot about the difference between maps and territories, how the map isn’t the territory though it can help mediate knowledge about the territory. It communicates truthfully (as far as maps go) about the territory. But it isn’t itself the territory. The day will come when our experience of God will not be partial or depend upon maps or mediation. We’ll know “as we’re known” and that, it seems to me, means “directly, unmediated and transparent presence.”

The other question is what Paul has in mind by “estropou” (glass/mirror). Corinth was famous for its fine mirrors. Ancient mirrors were polished metal. Not glass at all I don’t think. That might suggest that here we’re not looking “through a glass” to some object on the other side, so to speak. We’re looking “at ourselves” and seeing a poor “reflection.” Of whom? Of ourselves. 

Something tells me D will prefer this reading. ;o) But against it, and for the idea that the mirror is not a means of self-reflection of viewing some “other” is a) the use of “dia” as opposed to “en” before “estropou.” The former, followed by a genitive, shows instrumentality or agency. In James 1 (the only other time this word for mirror/glass is used) you clearly have one looking “into a mirror” (an seeing one’s self). There “en” is used. Here “dia” is used, which is why you have some translations that translate it as “through a glass” rather than “into a mirror.” In the first you’re vision of others (and presumably God) is obscured through epistemic distance. In the latter you’re vision of yourself is obscured through the same.

In favor of “through a glass” is the fact that when perfection arrives we see “face to face” and come to know “even as we are known,” which make best sense as interpersonal, relational knowing. It would seem strange to interpret “face to face” as seeing my own face without the aid of mediation. (Though again, something tells me D will argue FOR this!) And clearly “being known” presumes a knower other than myself, presumably this knower just IS the other whose face we see directly. And lastly, the whole direction of the passages, being “love,” wouldn’t end will if in the end its fulfilled in my coming to “know myself just as fully as God knows me.” That would seem to undermine the relational character (I/Thou) of love at the very point it’s needed.

The last question is, doesn’t the promise of knowing God “as fully as God knows me” offer too much? I mean, come on. My knowledge of God will equal (in depth, cf. “fully”) God’s knowledge of me? I don’t think so.

T

 

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One Love
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   Posted 2/17/2009 4:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
“They shall teach no more every man his neighbour, saying, ‘Know the Lord’, for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them.”

What is the Agency of this "knowledge of God" that all will possess? The Holy Spirit of Christ-the-Logos, the Self-Knowledge of God, yes?
 
Clarifying.  The ONLY way that we can perceive anything of God (even though God permeates all things!) is through our spiritual openness to God empowered  by the Holy Spirit.  Only the Spirit knows God...and can reveal God as He will...though human "hearts" can make themselves more or less conducive to receiving the Wisdom of God through union with God's Spirit.
 
The Spirit will poured out on "all flesh", I think...


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/17/2009 3:36:02 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/17/2009 4:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
The last question is, doesn’t the promise of knowing God “as fully as God knows me” offer too much? I mean, come on. My knowledge of God will equal (in depth, cf. “fully”) God’s knowledge of me? I don’t think so.

A created person cannot have more of God than the Holy Spirit of Christ-the-Logos. And that Holy Spirit (a gift to us that we CANNOT "possess", but only "receive" ) is the very Loving Self-Knowledge of the One Triune God. So, when we are fully "one with the Lord in spirit", our knowledge of God comes from God Himself. The very means of God's Self-Knowledge is given to the created person!  Can such a thing be?   Well, it seems to fit perfectly with God's promises of giving his Spirit to his people. And the whole "interpersonal, relational knowing" thing. You would agree that God the Holy Spirit is the very "interpersonal, relational self-knowledge" of the One Triune God, right?  That the ONLY we we can know God at all is by the personal revelatory action of God the Holy Spirit within us, and not by our own human means alone.  

"offer too much?"


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/17/2009 3:59:44 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/17/2009 4:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
In favor of “through a glass” is the fact that when perfection arrives we see “face to face” and come to know “even as we are known,” which make best sense as interpersonal, relational knowing. It would seem strange to interpret “face to face” as seeing my own face without the aid of mediation. (Though again, something tells me D will argue FOR this!) And clearly “being known” presumes a knower other than myself, presumably this knower just IS the other whose face we see directly. And lastly, the whole direction of the passages, being “love,” wouldn’t end will if in the end its fulfilled in my coming to “know myself just as fully as God knows me.” That would seem to undermine the relational character (I/Thou) of love at the very point it’s needed.

What I would argue for is this: The Holy Spirit is the Agency by which the human person can truly "know himself" in God...and this Agency is also directly involved with God's Self-Knowledge. The Holy Spirit is the Uncreated Knower who knows the created knower, and in so intensely "knowing" transforms the created knower according to the Uncreated Knower's knowledge of Self and the created knower.  In human existence, in faith in the God-Human Christ, full knowledge of God and self are empowered by the same source: the Holy Spirit of Christ-the-Logos.

Remember, we are not fully mature beings (or fully human, even) to the extent that we are NOT in the Spirit of Christ.

Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Said by the human person ever "living in Christ's Spirit"

Make sense?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/17/2009 3:58:26 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/17/2009 5:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
More thoughts...

We come "face-to-face" with God the Father (who IS Love) THROUGH Christ-the-Logos, Jesus IN the Holy Spirit, the depths of God's Love. The Knower and known are "unified" in God's Love.

Jesus, God's Word, is "God's Loving Face" towards Creation...even as the same Eternal Son is always "face-to-face" with the Father in the same Spirit of Love.

As we look into "God's Face" and the Spirit of Love, we live. As turn away from God's Face and the Spirit of Love, we die.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

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Tom
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   Posted 2/19/2009 6:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If we cannot and do not know (experience, apprehend, comprehend, understand) God's "essence" (and I take it that you still hold to this EO principle), then it's just not the case that we come to know God "as fully as we are known," for God DOES know our essences. Thus, there is a depth or dimension to God's knowledge of us that can never be reciprocated by us in our knowing God, and the incarnation doesn't change this. Personally I don't have a problem with this. I don't look to parallel in my experience EVERY possible thing that can be said of Christ. This leaves me having to qualify Paul's language ("know fully even as I'm known" ) as positing a reciprocal and equally full apprehension of the other between us and God in some respects, but not in others. But we make such qualifications all the time, so that's nothing new. What I can't do is say that we come to know/apprehend God as fully as God knows us IN ALL RESPECTS--including the apprehending of the divine essence.

Tom
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One Love
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   Posted 2/19/2009 10:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
If we cannot and do not know (experience, apprehend, comprehend, understand) God's "essence" (and I take it that you still hold to this EO principle), then it's just not the case that we come to know God "as fully as we are known," for God DOES know our essences. Thus, there is a depth or dimension to God's knowledge of us that can never be reciprocated by us in our knowing God, and the incarnation doesn't change this. Personally I don't have a problem with this. I don't look to parallel in my experience EVERY possible thing that can be said of Christ. This leaves me having to qualify Paul's language ("know fully even as I'm known" ) as positing a reciprocal and equally full apprehension of the other between us and God in some respects, but not in others. But we make such qualifications all the time, so that's nothing new. What I can't do is say that we come to know/apprehend God as fully as God knows us IN ALL RESPECTS--including the apprehending of the divine essence.

It seems that all you are saying is that human nature cannot "merge" with divinity, which would happen if created reality could "know" divine essence from the inside. This is fine by me. As I see it, the same can be said with Jesus. The humanity in Jesus did NOT turn into divinity, but it was deified. There is a hypostatic UNION of human and divine natures in Jesus (which REMAIN ontologically distinct within Christ's Person). At any rate, my point is that ANY genuine relational knowledge of God that we do receive in it's "fullness" about God is ONLY possible by the work of the Holy Spirit of Christ. Without the aid of the Holy Spirit, the human spirit would be locked into the created order's perceptions only.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

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Tom
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   Posted 2/19/2009 11:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: At any rate, my point is that ANY genuine relational knowledge of God that we do receive in it's "fullness" about God is ONLY possible by the work of the Holy Spirit of Christ. Without the aid of the Holy Spirit, the human spirit would be locked into the created order's perceptions only.

T: For sure!
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