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Tom
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   Posted 2/22/2009 4:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The Call to Personhood: A Christian Theory of the Individual in Social Relationships (Cambridge University Press, 1990), by Alistair I. McFadyen.

I’m just getting into it, but in the intro he says he’s going to argue that personhood is both dialogical (formed through social interaction, address and response) and dialectical (never coming to rest in a final unity, if only because one is never removed from the relation). I see his point on personhood being dialectical, but it’s going to be a challenge to describe the infinite fullness of the triune God in terms of God’s being the plenitude of personal being (aseity and all that). You don’t want to say God is ‘personally speaking’ “never at rest in a final unity.” I’ll see where McFadyen goes with this.

From my point of view, God as a trinity of persons IS at rest and God’s unity IS final in terms of God’s unsurpassable intensity of aesthetic experience. Loving relationality per se is unsurpassably intense and actual in God. There’s no ‘unrealized potential’ here, that is with respect to what constitutes the ‘kind’ of being God is. But given the kind of being God is, with Greg I like to argue that ‘creativity’ is an essential or intrinsic attribute of God. So alongside the unchanging actuality of God’s experience of Godself as the plenitude of personal being you have an unending, infinite display of diversity of expressive form. So there’s constant change as well—the joyful and creative ‘dance’ of love (my whole kaleidoscope analogy). What this actually might look like for God from the inside I haven’t the slightest notion. But positing ‘that’ it is so is helpful to me (in spite of the problems involved with God’s being eternally temporal).

It’s in THIS sense that I could appropriate McFadyen’s “dialectical” view of personhood, not as “never being at rest in final unity,” but “a creative rest which is ever expressive.” That’s not to say God “becomes” God or that he “achieves” his being and identity through time in the historical process of emanation and return. No Hegel here. For God time is not the vehicle of becoming it is for us. Rather, it is the mode of Being’s expressive form. One need not be said to “achieve” one’s being and identity when one expresses one’s self—though that may be the case on occasion with us presently. One may “possess” one’s being, “rest” even in one’s being and identity through creative expression.

Anyhow, back to McFadyen. How OUR personhood, fulfilled in Christ in the eschaton, may remain forever “dialectical” (never coming to rest in a final unity) as McFadyen says, is another challenge. I can agree with Greg of Nyssa that human persons continue forever to progress into the infinity of God, discovering more and more of God, never settling into a static set of truths about God or having to relive the same particularities of past experiences with God—but forever learning and living in the newness of divine creativity itself. This might be similar to McFadyen’s “dialectical” view of personhood, but I don’t like not calling fulfilled human existence in Christ “never coming to rest.” On the contrary, we are at rest (satisfied, satiated); we are just forever satiated by the unending diversity of our experience of God. That’s closer to what I want to say.

A poor analogy. It would be like going to a wine tasting conference with an infinite number of different wines, no two the same. Each taste ‘perfectly’ satiates and satisfies. It lacks nothing in terms of its aesthetic pleasure. The intensity of experience is constant (thus we are at rest). But no two tastes are the same (thus we are forever on the move). Every wine is a new and surprising taste which equally satisfies.

Thus, part of the satisfaction which defines human experience is a particular anticipation of the future: the perfect anticipation of rest.

T

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 2/22/2009 7:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
thanks.


(o)

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Corey
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   Posted 2/22/2009 8:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
T: How OUR personhood, fulfilled in Christ in the eschaton, may remain forever “dialectical” (never coming to rest in a final unity) as McFadyen says, is another challenge.

C: I think you're expressing very similiar intuitions to SK here. The Concept of Irony. It is something of an offense to the mind that it could be true that we can be both at "rest in the power which establishes" us and also remain an "infinite qualitative difference" from God. Like you describe of Gregory of Nyssa, I hold the picture from C.S. Lewis of continually pressing "further in, higher up". We have perfect satiation as we live by faith, but entailed in this faith is that there forever remains something more; even in the eschaton we will by faith have the assurance of things yet unseen, and the task of pursuing it. There's both rest and task.

But I would want to add that I don't care for this language: "the perfect anticipation of rest." I would rather assert that rest is available now, yet ironically entails task. That is, unless you mean by this something like, the anticipation that each future moment will also hold perfect satisfaction and rest, even as this present one does.

Post Edited (Corey) : 2/22/2009 7:22:18 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 2/22/2009 8:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I meant Rest's perfect anticipation, i.e., it's not rest which we are anticipating, but rather that we're at rest and yet are able to anticipate. Being at rest in/with what is and where we are doesn't rule out anticipating. We're perfectly at rest and satiated and yet anticipate.

Clear as mud?

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 2/22/2009 8:12:15 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 2/22/2009 9:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like the SK similarity!

T
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Corey
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   Posted 2/22/2009 9:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
T: "the perfect anticipation of rest."

C: Ahhh.. got it. As opposed to, "the anticipation of perfect rest."
I think we're on the same page.


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 2/22/2009 5:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
:-)


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/23/2009 6:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Speaking of held "dialectics"...

Check this out, Tom.

I think we could find common ground on this one. Fowler speaks directly about "dialectic."  Don't forget to check the charts too.  Some of the article...
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Dialectic

This study will attempt to illustrate in the graphic form of a chart, the necessary balance and tension that must be maintained if we are to have a Biblical and theological tenable teaching of “union with Christ.” The format we will employ to seek this balanced understanding will be the context of dialectic. Our first order of business will be to differentiate dialectic from other forms of divided thinking.

A dichotomy is a division of elements into two parts. Etymologically the word means, “to cut in two.” A dichotomy is a bifurcation of elements, separated and distinguished. The constitution of man is often explained as a dichotomy of body and soul, or alternatively as a trichotomy of body, soul, and spirit. Man, however, is not “cut in two” or “cut in three,” but is a functional whole with physical, psychological and spiritual function.

Dualism in its most generic meaning simply refers to two elements or substances. As a classic philosophical concept it refers to two opposing principles or powers, often regarded as being equal and counterbalanced. One power is identified with good, and the other with evil. The yin-yang dualism of oriental philosophy is an example where good and evil are equally balanced. The Platonic dualism of spirit and matter presented a constant conflict of good and evil: spirit being identified with good, and matter with evil. One approach to avoiding the conflict was to give in to the evil of physical matter, and indulge oneself in hedonism and Epicureanism. Another approach was to avoid the evil of the material by denial in asceticism and monasticism. Neither approach solved the dualism.

Sometimes opposites are cast as antinomies, meaning “against the law” of reason. When opposing principles or tenets form an unreasonable and irresolvable contradiction this is an antinomy.

A paradox is very similar to an antinomy. It involves opposing truths that do not have an apparent logical solution. They are juxtaposed alongside of each other in order to note their distinction.

Dialectic is a process of thought where a concept is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite. Opposite tenets are held in tensioned balance, creating a logical dialogue of how they relate to each other. This is not necessarily the Socratic method of thesis and antithesis seeking a logical synthesis. Rather, it involves living with the contradictory opposites and finding completeness and totality only in the counterbalance of the two, allowing a dynamic interchange and interplay of two concepts to challenge and balance each other. The Western mind, steeped as it is in the linear cause and effect of Aristotelian logic has a difficult time with dialectic. Western thought wants to get everything figured out, systematized, organized, categorized, and boxed up in the absoluteness of an airtight system with no loose ends. The Eastern mind, on the other hand, seems more able to maintain opposites in tension, perhaps because there has often been a dualistic base to their thinking.

By way of personal testimony, I can admit that I was a product of my Western world, even to the extent of being a religious fundamentalist with absolutist thinking of right and wrong, good and evil, orthodoxy and heresy. I came to understand philosophical dialectic through the writings of the Danish author, Soren Kierkegaard. Theological dialectic was learned through the writings of the Swiss theologian, Karl Barth. The writings of the French sociologist, Jacques Ellul, provided me with sociological dialectic. In personal and spiritual matters the writings of the British missionary, Norman Grubb, provided a perspective of spiritual dialectic. Together these mentors have taught me to view everything in terms of dialectic – to see the other side of everything, in the Bible, in theology, in sociology, and in spiritual matters.

There is such polarity and one-sidedness in Christian thinking today. Calvinism is set against Arminianism, and they both need to see the dialectic of divine sovereignty balanced with human responsibility. In eschatological matters preterism is on the far side of futurism, and they both need to see the dialectic of the “already” and the “not yet.” Dispensationalism battles against Covenant Theology, and they both need to recognize the dialectic of continuity and discontinuity. Creationism opposes scientism, and they both need to find balance in the dialectic of the supernatural alongside of the natural. The Biblicists and the charismatics need to see the dialectic of objectivity and subjectivity. The polarized extremes can only find common ground in an understanding of dialectic.

Having already noted the dialectic of objective and subjective interpretations of “union with Christ,” we shall proceed to consider the dialectic of union and distinction within the subjective understanding of “union with Christ.” This is not to deny or deprecate the objective interpretations of “union with Christ,” but our intent is to emphasize the subjective “union with Christ.” Within this graphic formatting of subjective union we shall observe the sequence of the “union of being” and the “union of doing”. These can also be referred to as “ontological union” and “operational union,” and can also be seen in the tension of dialectic.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/23/2009 5:04:32 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/25/2009 8:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
I can agree with Greg of Nyssa that human persons continue forever to progress into the infinity of God, discovering more and more of God, never settling into a static set of truths about God or having to relive the same particularities of past experiences with God—but forever learning and living in the newness of divine creativity itself. This might be similar to McFadyen’s “dialectical” view of personhood, but I don’t like not calling fulfilled human existence in Christ “never coming to rest.” On the contrary, we are at rest (satisfied, satiated); we are just forever satiated by the unending diversity of our experience of God. That’s closer to what I want to say.

A thought. I don't think that we are satiated by the "unending diversity" of our experience of God. We are satisfied by our filial relationship to the Father in Christ-the-Logos by the Holy Spirit...and ONLY that.

This is an important point to. One of the things that Hartshorne was saying was that aesthetic satisfaction was necessarily related to experience of diversity...such that only infinite diversity would satisfy God. Greg SPECIFICALLY argued against this. Greg said that the UNSURPASSALBLE DEPTH and INTENSITY of beautiful experience from the trinitarian loving self-relationality is what provided God with the primodial divine satisfaction, not experience of maximal, unending diversity.

None of this is to say that we will not experience undending diversity in the infinity of God in the eschaton. I do believe that. I'm just saying that this is NOT what "satifies" our souls for rest. Only the unsurpassable depth and intensity of "abiding in God's Love" as Children of "Abba" in Christ by the Spirit does this.

Make sense?

Reposting from here...

I'd like to suggest that, within theosis, there can be an ultimate intensity of beautiful experience via our appreciation of internal communion between our spirits and the Holy Spirit of Christ, such that the desire for aesthetic appreciation is SATIATED, moment-by-moment, by this interaction. In other words, the communion is so deep that all desire that the human being has for aesthetic appreciation (the quest for meaning and significance, inner harmony, etc) is completely and continually quelled by one's continuous relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit. From this aesthetically-satisfying ultimate intensity comes literally an INFINITE amount of ways to FREELY EXPRESS this ultimate intensity of loving unity to the world and to FREELY PARTICIPATE IN (and grow from) the contexts that we find ourselves in. THIS is why the growth potential is INFINITE.


 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/25/2009 7:59:51 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/25/2009 9:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
It would be like going to a wine tasting conference with an infinite number of different wines, no two the same. Each taste ‘perfectly’ satiates and satisfies. It lacks nothing in terms of its aesthetic pleasure. The intensity of experience is constant (thus we are at rest). But no two tastes are the same (thus we are forever on the move). Every wine is a new and surprising taste which equally satisfies.

Let me flip this, dawg...

I'd say it like this. An analogy.

Two people are married. The intensity of beautiful experience of lovingly "knowing and being known" in their relationship reaches a point where it's unsurpassable with respect to them. It totally satisfies them in all that they do And they strive to find NEW WAYS to express and enjoy that satisfaction. New ways to experience and express their love of "knowing" each other?

Hmm...

How many positions are in the Kama Sutra again? Heh. icon_brows2
 
Actually, I listen to this song and think about the spiritual intimacy with Christ, my Beloved Husband. God is my Life and I am His wife. (Song of Songs...) Hey, don't knock it till you try it! :p


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/25/2009 8:12:45 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 2/25/2009 3:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

On Hartshorne, yeah. I wasn’t making the cut to such a precise measurement. Cool. I’m happy to say that diversity of creative expression flows from filial relationship. My point is that where there is such aesthetic satisfaction (filial relation) there will be diversity of creative expression. For me these cannot—cannot—be separated. I bounced this off Greg. In my view Hartshorne was right in insisting that diversity of creative expression belong somewhere within our understanding of divine aesthetic experience. CH just made the diversity the ground of satisfaction, so to speak. I make the satisfaction the ground of the diversity. I honestly don’t know (nor do I think any of us really grasp) the exact relationship between the two. I just think they’re always together. I can’t conceive of being satiated in love and filial relationship apart from creative expression, not with regard to Trinitarian relations nor with regard to divine-human relations.

 

I’d disagree with CH when he says “only infinite diversity would satisfy God” and say instead that a satisfied God cannot but creatively express himself. But this need not entail the creation of a non-divine world. It can obtain within the life of God. Greg rightly grounds the primordial divine satisfaction in the depth and intensity of beautiful experience. But for me (and I bounced this off of Greg and he agreed) there’s really no meaningful way to posit such an experience apart from its being in turn the grounds of creative expression.

 

D: From this aesthetically-satisfying ultimate intensity comes literally an INFINITE amount of ways to FREELY EXPRESS this ultimate intensity of loving unity to the world and to FREELY PARTICIPATE IN (and grow from) the contexts that we find ourselves in. THIS is why the growth potential is INFINITE.

 

T: Right.

 

----------------------------

 

Tom: It would be like going to a wine tasting conference with an infinite number of different wines, no two the same. Each taste ‘perfectly’ satiates and satisfies. It lacks nothing in terms of its aesthetic pleasure. The intensity of experience is constant (thus we are at rest). But no two tastes are the same (thus we are forever on the move). Every wine is a new and surprising taste which equally satisfies.

D: I'd say it like this. An analogy. Two people are married. The intensity of beautiful experience of lovingly "knowing and being known" in their relationship reaches a point where it's unsurpassable with respect to them. It totally satisfies them in all that they do And they strive to find NEW WAYS to express and enjoy that satisfaction. New ways to experience and express their love of "knowing" each other?

How many positions are in the Kama Sutra again?

 

Tom: Not at all different from what I’m saying. Sex is better than wine after all, right?

 

But however many positions there are, I cannot call a relationship loving and interpersonal in which ONE partner alone decides which position the two will now embrace, which position next, and then next, and so forth for all the movements of love. Inconceivable. And I say this about the Trinitarian relations as well. That’s why for me ‘creativity’ is a necessarily exercised divine disposition.

 

T

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selah
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   Posted 2/27/2009 11:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
uh um...

what?

Gee, I was just looking for something to meditate on regarding lent...or something. Didn't expect to find this...

blush


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

Post Edited (selah) : 2/27/2009 10:44:20 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 2/27/2009 11:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ooops. Wasn't this designated a "Men Only" thread?

Hey, I only talked about wine until D brought up s-, well, you know.

T
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