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Tom
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   Posted 3/23/2009 1:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon, do you think "pure in heart" there in Mat 5 means a "state of consummated perfection"?

T
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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/23/2009 1:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 3/23/2009 1:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Wesley on Matthew 5:8

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

5:8 The pure in heart - The sanctified: they who love God with all their hearts. They shall see God - In all things here; hereafter in glory.

Uh, yeah...Wesley.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/23/2009 1:24:59 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 3/23/2009 1:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
C'mon, Tom...you PENTECOSTAL HOLINESS cat, you... ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 3/23/2009 1:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Naw...let's keep going...

Blessed Are the Pure in Heart For they Shall See God
St. Gregory of Nyssa

 

Bodily health is a good thing, but what is truly blessed is not only to know how to keep one’s health but actually to be healthy. If someone praises health but then goes and eats food that makes him ill, what is the use to him, in his illness, of all his praise of health?

We need to look at the text we are considering in just the same way. It does not say that it is blessed to know something about the Lord God, but that it is blessed to have God within oneself. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

I do not think that this is simply intended to promise a direct vision of God if one purifies one’s soul. On the other hand, perhaps the magnificence of this saying is hinting at the same thing that is said more clearly to another audience: The kingdom of God is within you. That is, we are to understand that when we have purged our souls of every illusion and every disordered affection, we will see our own beauty as an image of the divine nature.

And it seems to me that the Word of God, in these few words, was saying something like this: In you there is a certain desire to contemplate what is truly good. But when you hear that God’s majesty is exalted high above the heavens, that his glory beyond comprehension, that his beauty is beyond description, that his very nature can neither be perceived nor be understood, do not fall into despair or think you can never have the sight that you desire.

So if, by love and right living, you wash off the filth that has become stuck to your heart, the divine beauty will shine forth in you. Think of iron, which at one moment is dark and tarnished and the next, once the rust has been scraped off, shines and glistens brightly in the sun. It is the same with the inner core of man, which the Lord calls the heart. It has been in damp and foul places and is covered in patches of rust; but once the rust has been scraped off, it will recover itself and once more resemble its archetype. And so it will be good, since what resembles the good must be good itself.

Therefore, whoever looks at himself sees in himself what he desires. And whoever is pure in heart is blessed because, seeing his own purity, he sees the archetype reflected in the image. If you see the sun in a mirror then you are not looking directly at the sky, but still you are seeing the sun just as much as someone who looks directly at it. In the same way, the Lord is saying, although you do not have the strength to withstand the direct sight of the great and inaccessible light of God, if you look within yourselves once you have returned to the grace of the image that was placed in you from the beginning, you will find in yourselves all that you seek.

For to be God is to be pure, to be free from weakness and passion, to be separated from all evil. If these things are all true of you then God is within you. If your thought is kept pure from evil habits, free from passion and weakness, separated from all stain, you are blessed because your vision is sharp and clear. You are able to see what is invisible to those who have not been purified. The eyes of your soul have been cleansed of material filth and through the purity of your heart you have a clear sight of the vision of blessedness. What is that vision? It is purity, sanctity, simplicity, and other reflections of the brightness of the Divine nature. It is the sight of God.

Theoria, baby... reading


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/23/2009 1:24:19 PM (GMT-5)

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Asher
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   Posted 3/23/2009 5:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
See, this is where I think the Bible is somewhat schizophrenic. The whole idea of agape "unconditional love" and grace "unmerited favor" do not work well together. I can make no sense whatsoever of love saying, "You are vile, and you certainly don't deserve any kindness from Me, but because I am so magnanimous I'm gonna pour undeserved love on you." It's not that grace is not just, it's that it's not loving! Grace is a concept used by religious leaders to manipulate the laity.
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One Love
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   Posted 3/23/2009 5:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Asher:
See, this is where I think the Bible is somewhat schizophrenic. The whole idea of agape "unconditional love" and grace "unmerited favor" do not work well together. I can make no sense whatsoever of love saying, "You are vile, and you certainly don't deserve any kindness from Me, but because I am so magnanimous I'm gonna pour undeserved love on you." It's not that grace is not just, it's that it's not loving! Grace is a concept used by religious leaders to manipulate the laity.

Grace as "unmerited favor" just doesn't work. Grace as "God Himself working in Creation via God's Spirit in creation and re-creation" makes much more sense.  When Grace is thought of that way, then it becomes SELF-EVIDENT that God demonstrates unconditional love and beneficence to all things AS GOOD CREATOR AND SAVIOR.
 
Eastern Orthodoxy didn't get this wrong.  Western Christianity did.  Just being real on that. 
 
 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/23/2009 6:06:05 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 3/23/2009 6:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I bet I can use the term Grace without manipulating the laity...

heh...  rotfl


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 3/23/2009 6:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thought:

The idea of "grace-as-unmerited-favor" seems to lead naturally into a world-denying, self-referential perspective that directly works into a two-storey view of God and Creation.
 
Where the "saint-who's-nuthin'-but-a-sinner-saved-by-grace" will finally go to the Heaven they don't deserve...and leave that old first storey behind.  Why?  Because they stayed under the umbrella of God's "unmerited favor."
 
Ask me how I know this.  Ha! biggrin


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/23/2009 6:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Tommy:  Why must a certain level of completed sanctification only make sense as a requirement to get into heaven? Why can’t I pursue godliness because it’s beautiful and because it pleases the Father?

Brandon:  I like "character conformity" by why can't we use these terms:  maturity or matruation.  This is how I've always understood UR to be in what D has said on these boards.  Punishment isn't simply for the sake of "blow by blow for wrong doing."  Maturation includes everyone.  Interestingly, I picked up John G. Stackhouse eleven year old book now in its second edition, "Can God be Trusted?" in which I was reading about this very thing.  God could have made a world in which there was no need for "moral goodness" (which is different than moral innocence) in which we would freely never sin like a situation in which it would be impossible for a loving mother to ever torture her children no matter if the whole world was at stake, she just would never be that kind of person to do that kind of thing.  So, Christians throughout the ages have looked forward to enjoying that state of moral maturity in which sin has lost its appeal and all we want or prefer is the good.  This is the same for believers as well as non-believers.

Now, we can ask why God never created us that way from the start but that might be like asking (as Stackhouse says) God to make a square circle.  It may be in the nature of things that a creature does not ENJOY THE CONDITION of moral maturity WITHOUT the maturing or without undergoing the process of moral training, conditioning or some type of purification process.  Adam and Eve in their state of innocence were as good as God wanted them to be--as good as he made them--but they had to embark, necessarily so, on a journey of moral maturation.  And this involves the ever-present possibility of moral decline.



Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 3/23/2009 6:39:11 PM (GMT-5)

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JET
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   Posted 3/23/2009 8:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What about this?

Kierkegaard / Sickness Unto Death ...

Purgatory is the remedy for those who are "in despair not wanting to be oneself - the despair of weakness"

Hell is the remedy for those who are in "the despair of wanting in despair to be oneself - defiance"
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JET
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   Posted 3/23/2009 8:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As far as an exegetical case (other than the passages Greg appealed to), I think of all of the passages that speak of the role of suffering and hardship in the life of a Christian. It seems that what God is really interested in is a deep kind of faith, the kind that perseveres, the kind that believes and trusts God despite all appearances and temptations. The Abraham/Isaac story, Job, I Peter, James, just off the top of my head. The "hard" sayings from the Gospels. The "refining fire" metaphor. Think Kierkegaard. How many people die as "Knights of Faith"? The type of faith that God really wants is not easy and its not abstract. God didn’t “know” Abraham’s faith until Abraham lived it out. There’s no substitute for going through the fire.

And if this is true, what would be different in the case of physical death? I imagine that some people experience this kind of faith in this life and, upon death, are immediately "with the Lord". I.e., Abraham, Paul. I imagine others are "in Christ", but have not experienced or exercised this kind of deep faith, perhaps through no fault of their own -- maybe they had a really easy life. Or perhaps the person had many opportunities to develop this kind of faith through various (random) circumstances of life, but the person hasn't made the most of those opportunities. In either case God wants the best for them. God doesn't want to DEPRIVE them of experiencing this deep kind of faith.

So rather than undermining grace, purgatory would be the result of grace. We don’t deserve the benefits of purgatory (faith), but God is gracious.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/23/2009 8:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love said...

Grace as "unmerited favor" just doesn't work. Grace as "God Himself working in Creation via God's Spirit in creation and re-creation" makes much more sense.  When Grace is thought of that way, then it becomes SELF-EVIDENT that God demonstrates unconditional love and beneficence to all things AS GOOD CREATOR AND SAVIOR.
 
Eastern Orthodoxy didn't get this wrong.  Western Christianity did.  Just being real on that. 

You can read...... http://www.amazon.com/Light-Christian-East-Introduction-Tradition/dp/0830825940

or hear.... http://www.myocn.net/index.php/CRTL-Archives/An-Introduction-to-Eastern-Orthodoxy-for-Western-Christians.html

 

 


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/23/2009 9:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy listening...

http://www.myocn.net/index.php/CRTL-Archives/An-Introduction-to-Eastern-Orthodoxy-for-Western-Christians.html
 
 


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 3/24/2009 7:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Bruce.

You can read...... http://www.amazon.com/Light-Christian-East-Introduction-Tradition/dp/0830825940

I already own it...and have read it. Great book. You suggested it to me some time ago.

You've been quite the "starets" for me as I now think about it. Meaning, I NEVER would have had as much as exposure to Orthodox thought if I hadn't have read all your threads all these years. I sure didn't get this from ORU obviously. (By then, all the Orthodox influences had already left by the time I got there!)

So, thanks, again, for everything.  God bless! ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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Duigan MacBoyd
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   Posted 3/24/2009 7:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Luke 23:39-43 

 39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

 40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?

41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in purgatory".

 

Apparently, once a papist, always a papist.

 

 


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One Love
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   Posted 3/24/2009 7:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nice one, DM.
 
Tight stuff, JET.   Knight of Faith
 
Man, I love this board! biggrin


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/24/2009 8:12:02 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 3/24/2009 7:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, Bruce. Thanks for the broadcast.  I say 100% Amen to ALL of it, especially about the part on Hesychasm, the Jesus Prayer, and "being quiet." 
 
Real talk...
 
Being a divorced person who has ADHD*  and has had lasting struggles with depression, anxiety and narcisstic personality disorder historical tendencies, "oppressive thoughts" of unrealistic expectations, high passion, and a need for achievement and approval were making me more egocentric (and correspondingly, suicidal AND homicidal at times)  My functional addiction to my fragmenting identity (I am Dwayne Polk) was seriously binding me into self-referential insanity and pushing me away from awareness of God's Presence.  But, after participating with the Jesus Prayer and other hesychastic contexts, God is bringing forth deep peace of spirit, and genuine love for God, self and others in the midst of genuine, serious troubles...something that was impossible before.  By the Grace of God I go daily, yo.  Sooooo real. 
 
ALL from God's Grace.  Definitely not from my efforts.  Some of y'all know how close I was to becoming an atheist a few years ago. icon_smile_shock (Biblegal, ya saved mah life.  Thanks, again. )
 
Thanks be to God. :-)
 
PS: Payton's the bomb, on the boss...

*: I'm diagnosed and on medication for my ADHD now because of a very patient and knowledgeable wife! lol


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/24/2009 7:51:17 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 3/24/2009 8:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Another thought about the telecast. Payton on the Resurrection.

Makes sense. Only by the Resurrection could Jesus show the Void to be "without hypostasis" in all finality.

Christ is raised, therefore God's telos for humanity CAN'T be utter death. We have a risen, glorified eternal human high priest who has CONQUERED death for us.  And is reigning over all that is...right now.  So, we don't fear the Void or any of it's expressions.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/24/2009 8:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Amen.

Love ya!


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/24/2009 8:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Parenthetically, D., I'm going to send you a PM with an audio of two profs from Chicago evangelical colleges: Bradley Nassif from North Park--who is Antiochian Orth. and grew up in protestant Kansas; and another guy, George Kalantzis, who is Greek and gerw up in Greece, who was born into an evangelical (NOT protestant though, as the only thing their denomination rebelled against was their own secular atheism that they thought a careful study of the Bible would confirm!) family in an Orth country and culture.

Good listening!

On February 19, 2009, the Wheaton College Diversity Committee hosted a dialogue in Wheaton, Illinois, between Dr. Bradley Nassif, an Orthodox professor of biblical and theological studies at North Park University, and Dr. George Kalantzis, an Evangelical professor of theology at Wheaton College. Each speaker was asked to defend the merits of his particular theological perspective.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/features/eastern_orthodoxy_and_evangelical_protestantism_a_dialogue



(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 3/24/2009 8:35:03 AM (GMT-5)

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Truth Aficionado
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   Posted 3/26/2009 8:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love said...

Love of God as faith in God manifests as humility. Humility is above all else, the characteristic hallmark of the saints. Theoria and Theosis culminates into the Kingdom of God. Here humility as a saintly attribute is called sophia or Holy Wisdom. Humility, not knowledge, is the most critical component to mankind's salvation.[3

 
 
Amen!
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