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Tom
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Posted 3/22/2009 8:40 AM (GMT -6)

Greg’s latest blog post: http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/

“While your faith in Jesus in principle reconciles you to God, your character has to be refined before you enter heaven. It’s like Christ’s death on the cross let’s you out of prison but you still need to have your criminal character reformed before you are fit for the heavenly society.”

Holy Crap!

Similitude
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Posted 3/22/2009 9:12 AM (GMT -6)

There seems to be a clear difference in the accountability he's talking about from the verses he quotes and the refining of character. Receiving "more blows" for acting contrary to KNOWLEDGE of the master's will (i.e., where much is given, much is required, he says) seems to be something quite different from character refinement. Suffering with Christ is character refinement, not the logical equivalent of "blows" for wrong-doing. Thus, those verses about accountability don't imply any postponement of entering into our common inheritance. If fact, the language about all appearing before the judgment seat of Christ doesn't sound, to me, like a stay in prison at all.

One Love
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Posted 3/22/2009 6:10 PM (GMT -6)

Heh...

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler

Tom
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Posted 3/22/2009 10:48 PM (GMT -6)

What the heck's "Heh" mean? So what d'ya think?

T

BBBCanada
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Posted 3/22/2009 11:12 PM (GMT -6)

I'm trying to figure out what the heck "Holy Crap!" means. You don't even like that term! So what's your take?

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Tom
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Posted 3/23/2009 6:49 AM (GMT -6)

I think purgatory is a bad move. As I read through Greg’s post, I got the distinct feeling that this was not the sort of post-mortem pursuit by divine love of those who rejected the gospel. As Jeff said, the passages Greg appealed to are about punishment, which may in fact be remedial but which nevertheless are not about the character development of the redeemed.

Apart from the passages Greg appealed to there aren’t any others that even come close to describing the sort of thing Greg’s talking about. And what of the implications for atonement anyhow? Does this not in fact undermine the sufficiency of atonement and salvation by faith? I think that can certainly be argued. Besides, how much character conformity does Greg feel is the requirement for entrance into heaven? He spoke of our ‘perfection’. That’s got to happen first, outside of our glorified state, before we’re admitted? That’s what I’m hearing Greg say. Heaven only lets in perfect people. The Apostle John explicitly links the completion of our journey (our “becoming like him”) to the beatific vision (our “seeing him”).

Greg seems to be struggling with the question of what sense to make of the NT’s emphasis upon sanctification at all if it’s true that whoever sees Christ becomes like Christ. In other words, if a somewhat lazy believer is instantaneously transformed into the same perfected state as a Mother Teresa, then why all the effort? I definitely feel this argument beneath Greg’s post.

I confess I’m surprised. We really struggled against this when arguing for the possibility of UR; the whole parable of the laborers (those who got paid the same at the end of the day, etc.). In the end, grace just doesn’t sit well with us. Why must a certain level of completed sanctification only make sense as a requirement to get into heaven? Why can’t I pursue godliness because it’s beautiful and because it pleases the Father? Why can’t the pleasure God receives and the increased beauty we reflect from becoming more like him justify EVERY effort in this life to be like Christ as much as is humanly possible EVEN IF it were the case that EVERYBODY instantaneously became perfected at the resurrection? I mean come on. What’s God worth to me? Can God be our truest motivation, in the ‘now’, regardless of how things pan out in the end? I just think Greg’s move abandons his whole aesthetics.

That doesn’t mean sanctification is an incidental thing or that how we exercise our freedom in this life doesn’t have abiding consequences. But instead of taking Greg’s approach, I think a better solution is found in the discussion we had about eternal rewards. Now there’s something the NT does speak of when discussing eschatology. Why not simply suppose that our neglecting the opportunities to grow in faith in turn determines our capacity to experience and reflect beauty? We take sanctification seriously without spreading salvation out between faith and works, and without demanding that everybody reach the same level of perfection outside the city gates at which time they ‘qualify’ for the beatific vision. Why are we supposed to be perfected? If our perfection is accomplished in community (and Greg admits it is), where are those in purgatory dwelling together in community in a context appropriate for the redeemed to develop their characters sufficiently? How much is sufficient? If it behooves us to perfect ourselves now because getting it done then will be more painful, then what sort of suffering/pain defines the redeemed community in purgatory?

Not a good move.

Tom

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 6:52 AM (GMT -6)

Thoughts:

1) Greg's universalist slip is showing.

2) What Greg is saying about there not being a "shortcut" to the end state would be true both for universalism AND annihilationism. It's not like people who immediately want absolute non-existence actually get it immediately. Not given Greg's view of post-mortem evangelism and all.

3) Being a "formal" annihiliationist, he believes that technically a person cut off from Christ at the end would be absolutely annihiliated eventually even if it was after a certain amount of prescribed hellish suffering before the annihilation. In other words, with Greg's belief, if someone wanted annihiliation BAD ENOUGH, all they'd have to do is STAY cut off from Christ, endure whatever "hell" there was, and then pass out of existence. Check it. If I REALLY want to end my existence, and I believe what Greg believes, then all I have to do is become incorrigible (at least as much as I think I can be so) so that I can be assured the "nothingness". If you think about it, if annihilationism is true, then any and all suffering of the one to be annihilated becomes MEANINGLESS to the sufferer, because it ends in absolute non-existence, which makes the length of time in hell pretty insignificant. The "void" brings everything to nothing, particularly any lengths of suffering before the annihilation.

Just my thoughts.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 6:56 AM (GMT -6)

Question: How do you have any meaningful post-mortem evangelism scenario where faith can be developed AFTER DEATH if there is no type of purgatorial opportunity? Remember even JOHN PIPER talks about how babies who die have to "grow up in the faith" post mortem before fully receiving Christ. And that's PIPER, dawg!

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 3/23/2009 6:57 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Greg seems to be struggling with the question of what sense to make of the NT’s emphasis upon sanctification at all if it’s true that whoever sees Christ becomes like Christ. In other words, if a somewhat lazy believer is instantaneously transformed into the same perfected state as a Mother Teresa, then why all the effort? I definitely feel this argument beneath Greg’s post.

This seems like the old "Why should we do missions if everyone's gonna be saved already?" type thing.

Very human, non-theocentric thinking.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 7:00 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
In the end, grace just doesn’t sit well with us.

EXACTAMUNDO!

--------------------------------------------------------

Grace causes us to recognize the sin of putting confidence in ourselves and our own abilities; the sin of personal obsessions and indulgences; the sin of religious piety and spiritual pride. Man hates to admit his dependency, his derivativeness, his contingency. The natural human propensity is to want to take initiatory action, to perform, to achieve, to earn or merit something for what we have done. Grace grates against all of our natural self-oriented tendencies and illusions of our own abilities. Ellul is correct in noting that "grace is odious to us....totally unacceptable."64

Grace humiliates us, for it implies there is nothing we can do to please or appease God. Man's indignant objection is often, "But I have to do something! I don't take handouts. I'm not a charity or welfare recipient. I work for what I get." (OL's Note: Typical Western Protestant Work Ethic Kind of Stuff!!) Grace rejects all human performance, human accomplishment and human sacrifice (of time, money, ability, etc.); the basis of our cultural work-ethic. "Understanding the nature of grace, we decisively reject any confidence in ourselves, and we trust ourselves totally to Jesus."65

In those areas of our lives where we tend to compulsively indulge in sinful activity, grace forces us to realize that we are powerless and inadequate to change. Grace exposes our obsessions and addictions and causes us to exclaim, "I can't; only God can!" (OL's Note: My theme song nowadays!)

Grace is antithetical to the establishment of man's religions. It is the human propensity to establish negotiated settlements with God in religion. These are inevitably based on a bilateral reciprocity of action: "You do this; I'll do this." Such contractual performance is contrary to grace. T.F. Torrance addresses this contrast of grace and religion.

"Grace is costly to man because it lays the axe to the root of all his cherished possessions and achievements, not least in the realm of his religion, for it is in religion that man's self-justification may reach its supreme and most subtle form. ...Religion can be the supreme form taken by human sin. ...Just because religion is the supreme possibility of all human possibilities it can become 'the working capital of sin.' ...Modern man wants 'cheap grace,' grace which does not set a question mark at his way of life or ask him to deny himself and take up the Cross in following Christ; grace that does not disturb his setting in contemporary culture by importing into his soul a divine discontent but one which will let him be quite 'secular;' grace that merely prolongs his already existing religious experience and does not 'spoil' him for existence as a man of the world."66

Jacques Ellul likewise remarks,

"Grace is the hardest thing for us to be reconciled to, because it implies the renouncing of our pretensions, our power, our pomp and circumstance. It is opposite of everything our 'religious' sentiments are looking for..."67

Grace reveals our natural pride of self-sufficiency, as well as the pride of spiritual progression. "Nothing is more devastating to spiritual pride than grace."68

Our human response to God's grace in faith will necessarily include the concurrent recognition of our sinfulness and the necessary rejection of all confidence in ourselves and our abilities. In grace we must recognize that we are derivative creatures who must derive all from God who alone is our sufficiency.

--------------------------------

AMEN!!!!! hop

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/23/2009 7:09:41 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 3/23/2009 9:13 AM (GMT -6)

D: If you think about it, if annihilationism is true, then any and all suffering of the one to be annihilated becomes MEANINGLESS to the sufferer...

Tom: ...and to God as well.

Why would God insist on ANY suffering at all for the wicked if annihilation is their end? To get his 'pound of flesh'? Because 'justice' requires it? Because God will register a "Tilt" like a pinball machine if SOMEBODY DON'T suffer for this crime? Annihilation IS the consequence (if annihilation is true). God in love bears the pain and consequence of our offense for us (not an unjust thing in itself). That's not to say hell's suffering isn't just. It is. People experience the consequences of their choices. It is not unjust for those who reject love to feel love's absence. That's different than saying they suffer in hell to "pay God back" an amount of suffering equal to the pain they've caused God and others through sinning.

The only two forms of annihilation possible to my mind are: (1) you expire immediately upon hitting the flames regardless of how horrible your earthly life; neither God nor justice demand a payback in terms of some finite length of suffering before you expire, OR (2) after some time in hell during which time God lovingly pursues us, we really do become irrevocably solidified in evil (or make a rational, informed and irrevocable choice for non-existence), in which case--poof.

So D, what of Greg's purgatory man. You down with it?

T

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 9:53 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
So D, what of Greg's purgatory man. You down with it?

Given person X whose heart is not pure towards God at the time of death

1) only the "pure in heart" can achieve "seeing God" (culminating in the beautific vision)

and...

2) post-mortem evangelism is true

then there has to be some type of post-mortem purification available.

What exactly that looks like...I don't know.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 3/23/2009 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

Oh, so you agree with Greg. I'm disagreeing.

I don't think we have to qualify (by reaching some level of perfected character) FIRST and then get to see Christ. I'd agree with John: "We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is." Glorification perfects whatever is left unperfected about us, leaving in place as a metaphysical consequence of our choices whatever permanent shape or reflective capacities might be the case.

T

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 10:31 AM (GMT -6)

What do you think "seeing God" even means, dude? Maybe we need to get that straight. You're not just talking about visually seeing the physical, resurrected body of Jesus, are you??

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/23/2009 10:35:06 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 3/23/2009 11:38 AM (GMT -6)

Doesn't matter. The RESULT of seeing him is the completion/perfection of our journey to becoming like him. The 'seeing' CAUSES (or enables) 'becoming', a process at work even now (we who with unveiled faces behold..., etc.), and conummated in a glorified vision of Christ (whatEVER that entails). But nothing short of glorification can perfect our characters. So I wouldn't require that perfection as an entrace fee TO glorification. Greg, on the other hand, reverses the order: BECOMING enables SEEING. WHEN you're perfect enough, God let's you into heaven.

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/23/2009 11:48:57 AM (GMT-5)

BBBCanada
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Posted 3/23/2009 11:46 AM (GMT -6)

Question: Tommy you said, "As Jeff said, the passages Greg appealed to are about punishment, which may in fact be remedial but which nevertheless are not about the character development of the redeemed."

If as D says,

Given person X whose heart is not pure towards God at the time of death

1) only the "pure in heart" can achieve "seeing God" (culminating in the beautific vision)

and...

2) post-mortem evangelism is true

then there has to be some type of post-mortem purification available.

I don't see how there is not some purification process for both the saved and unsaved. The questions that arose in my mind were what Pinnock brought up years ago and similar to something you said and that is, "Do any of us feel like we have complete sanctification by our death? Don't we all have a sense that by the time death comes knocking on our door we still have a way to go?" I mean you ask the question, "Besides, how much character conformity does Greg feel is the requirement for entrance into heaven?" If there is character conformity (which I see as having a 'pure heart') is mandatory for the unsave why should it be different for the saved? Which then makes "post-mortem purification" true for everyone.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 11:51 AM (GMT -6)

Thank you, Brandon.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

BBBCanada
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Posted 3/23/2009 11:55 AM (GMT -6)

Well, it seems that there is too much of a division between the saved and the unsaved at THAT point in eschatological "history." And why should the question of how much character development we need to attain matter before we get into heaven be a concern of ours anyway? God is the just judge right? He sees it better than we do right? He knows.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 11:56 AM (GMT -6)

Tom, are you suggesting that a person can "see God" as he is...WITHOUT a pure heart?

uh, theoria?

Theoria (Greek θεωρία) is Greek for contemplation or 'the perception of beauty regarded as a moral faculty' (OED). From within Eastern Orthodox theology it is the 'vision' and or the 'seeing' of God, as the experience of God, achieved by the pure of heart who are no longer subject to the afflictions of the passions. This affliction of the passions is caused by the knowledge of good and the knowledge the evil. Theoria is validated because God is in the Universe or material world, which is evidenced by the material world containing beauty. Theoria is obtained as a gift from the Holy Spirit to those who through partaking of the sacraments along with the observance of the commandments of God and ascetic practices (see also kenosis, Poustinia and schema) have achieved dispassion.^[1]Theoria is closely tied to the ascetic form of contemplative prayer called hesychasm that in the Eastern Church can also encompass the Jesus Prayer or the Prayer of the Heart. Theoria is a faculty that develops along with and is intimately related to the process of theosis, considered (especially by the Eastern Orthodox church) to be the quintessential purpose and goal of Christianity. Theosis has three stages the first is called catharis or purification, the second theoria or illumination and finally theosis or deification.^[2] The love of beauty (philokalia), transcending the love of wisdom (philosophy) manifests into the love of God (theophilos). Love of God as faith in God manifests as humility. Humility is above all else, the characteristic hallmark of the saints. Theoria and Theosis culminates into the Kingdom of God. Here humility as a saintly attribute is called sophia or Holy Wisdom. Humility, not knowledge, is the most critical component to mankind's salvation.^[3

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/23/2009 12:01:22 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 3/23/2009 11:59 AM (GMT -6)

Brandon: If there is character conformity (which I see as having a 'pure heart') is mandatory for the unsave why should it be different for the saved?

Tom: Hey Brandon.

Wel, I don't think a certain level of 'character conformity' for either the wicked or the justified is required. That's never been what I've meant by UR. And yes, when we die, I suspect none of us is all we should or chould have become. The problem is that there is no perfection of human being apart from the beatific vision. Spend a million years in post-mortem community with other redeemed (but now suffering in some sense?) persons apart from the beatific vision and you'll still have room to go. And surely if we're going to say ANY level of character development is required before God will countenance you we must say PERFECTION itself is required. Do you really believe God demands your utter perfection before you inherit heaven? Again, that just reverses the line of causation/enablement from "seeing, thus becoming" to "becoming, thus seeing."

Anybody got an exegetical case for purgatory (other than the passages Greg appealed to, which go nowhere)?

Didn't think so.

T

One Love
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Posted 3/23/2009 12:04 PM (GMT -6)

Tom,

Do you have the Saints' experience and testimony of theoria? Didn't think so.

and since we are talking so much about the "beatific vision"...

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 3/23/2009 12:10 PM (GMT -6)

I'm suggesting, D, that we shall be like him when we (viz., as a result of) see him as he is, that the consummation of our journey to perfection ends with/by means of the glorification of our bodies and God's welcoming us. That's all. I think having a 'pure heart' is consistent with being on this journey and committed to it. However poor a performance we turn out from time to time because we're not yet perfected, we can still remain committed to the process and perfectly desire our continued perfection.

What's the deal? You guys upset with grace? Yo.

T

Tom
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Posted 3/23/2009 12:11 PM (GMT -6)

D: Do you have the Saints' experience and testimony of theoria? Didn't think so.

T: Maybe we do need purgatory. Heh.

BBBCanada
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Posted 3/23/2009 12:14 PM (GMT -6)

Yeah, well, I don't really have a problem with "becoming" thus "seeing" That IS the point. Even as we are NOW BECOMING. Matt 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/23/2009 12:36 PM (GMT -6)

Right. I think we need perfection in order to see God. This is not not about grace. Grace is all up in it, right? Just as grace is at work in our present becoming. The Master putting the steal in the fire--grace. The Master taking the hammer and pounding the steal into a fine sword--grace. The Master perfecting the sword--grace. Then we will see God. Then we will be fit for service. It's all grace.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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