Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Cyril of Alexandria  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
182 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 8:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not surprising, B. You've been great at the book suggestions! ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 8:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole thread


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
... Of course, I don't struggle with the union the way these guys all did since they assume divine impassability. But anyhow.

T
When you listen to the Orthodox...you will (I think) hear BOTH the positive and the negative.
 
By apophatic is meant, “that which cannot be spoken.”
 
God's suffering cannot be spoken of, but is -- it seems -- hinted at with shaddows.
 
Clearly there are ways in which WE suffer that God does not. And clearly there are ways that God suffers: hates sinand does not want any to perish.
 
(I don't think Cyril or Athanasias were scholastics!)


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 4/4/2009 7:38:43 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, D.

Great thanks to you, too, Tom.


(o)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

McGuckin (pp. 214-216)

 

Unfortunately, the Antiochenes [Tom: John of Antioch, Theodoret, et. al., and Nestorius of course], in Cyril’s time, applied [hypostasis] to signify ‘concrete realities’, and it was, thus, for them almost a synonym for physis understood in the sense of natural properties constituting a genus. [Tom: The technical vocabulary was not yet set in stone; it was still in the process of settling, but Cyril anticipates what is to come by taking hypostasis and prosopon to be roughly equivalent] Just as they insisted on two natures (God and Man) so they insisted that there had to be two hypostases in Christ. They were applying hypostasis in its technical philosophical sense of that which made a real physis and presented it to observation as a concrete entity. In his correspondences relating to Theodoret, Cyril acknowledged this different use of hypostasis. He himself wished to reserve the word [Tom: hypostasis, that is] to signify subjectivity not natural property, but he meets Theodoret’s objections to his own insistence on the single divine hypostasis of the Christ. [Tom: Note that for Cyril ‘subjectivity’ = ‘subject’ = ‘hypostasis’.]

                Theodoret’s problem was that if a physis was not hypstatised, it was simply a notion, not a reality. [Tom: And he’s right on; Cyril agreed this far.] As in our earlier semantic discussions in regard to Nestorian doctrine, we could argue about a unicorn’s physis without ever having to believe that unicorns ‘really’ existed. The notional unicorn was fantastic because it was not hypostatized. If there was only one divine hypostasis in Christ, Theodoret argued, then Cyril’s Christ was certainly God, but he could not be a real man because his human physis had not been made real by having a corresponding human hypostasis. Cyril meets that objection in two ways. In the first instance a human physis humanly hypostatized must be a distinct human being. Like a generic unicorn that does not really exist, once it has been hypostatized it is a real unicorn. More precisely, it now has a name and an identity. So, Cyril argues, if Christ’s humanity was defined as humanly hypostatized then Christ would be a human person, the man Jesus. But in that case the Christological union would necessitate the destruction or abolition of the divine person (for a human person cannot be a divine person and vice versa) which is offensive to Christianity, or alternatively necessitate the acquiescence in having two personal centers in Christ. If this is the case, Cyril demands that the Antiochenes should openly admit that they teach Two Sons, and admit accordingly that in no sense can Christ be called one. If this were to happen, however, then the incarnation does not represent a dynamic interaction between God and Man at all, it is reduced to yet another prophetic epiphany, where God associates himself with a human being in a discontinuous parallel relationship—the inspiring God to the inspired man.

                Theodoret, of course, did not want to accept these Christological implications, but Cyril pressed him to admit that his own logic of double hypostasis demanded it. In his later writings, notably the Eranistes, Theodoret took the point and used Cyril’s terminology of the single hypostasis. If, however, one accepted the overriding principle that there was only one hypostasis in Christ, and that a divine one, did Theodoret’s criticism, that this implied a merely notional or abstract humanity, have a real force? Cyril argued, no.

                To assume that a hypostasis had to correspond with its own generic type was a generally applicable principle. So, a cat physis with a cat hypostasis becomes a real cat, and so on. But Cyril argues that the same rules do not apply in the case of the incarnation which is a unique ontological event. A cat physis cannot be realized by a human hypostasis, or a man’s physis by an elephant hypostasis, simply because these created realities are set within the bounds of their generic limitations, and these limitations are a fundamental part of creature-hood. All created things must obey the limits their nature sets upon them. In the case of the divine hypostasis, however, his nature sets no limit upon him whatsoever [Tom: That’s debatable, but go ahead]; as God he is untrammeled in power and actually expresses that power to create all kinds of natures and their corresponding hypostases. It is thus nothing extraordinary (except for its extraordinary particularity) that God the Word should create a human physis for himself. This he does, outside the normal generic processes, in the particular act of the direct fashioning of a human form in the womb of the virgin. He did not displace a human fetus that had a human hypostatic reality of its own, because there was never an instant when this human fetus existed independently of his personal creative act. It was a human fetus within Mary because it was created in the perfect attributes applicable to the human genus, and within a human womb, but it was unique in that it was the direct and personal presence of the Logos on which it depended for the inception of its existence, not on human insemination….

                In short, this human baby was personally hypostatized, directly and immediately, by the Word of God. [Tom: And THIS, D, is what I have always claimed cannot be the case with us.] He was human in so far as this meant he lived and moved within the attributes and conditions of the human genus, but he was also divine in so far as he lived and moved in the power of the Godhead which was ‘his own nature’. The divine hypostasis of Christ moved and lived within the human form, in the incarnate life, realizing an individual human and historical existence; but some important facts demanded notice, and chiefly that this living out of a human life was an exercise of divine power. The Word initiated the incarnation and sustained an incarnate life as an act of his own omnipotence. To this extent we have the paradox of a human (thus limited and fragile) life lived out as a direct expression of God’s power (so, the limited humanity walks on the sea and rises from its own death). What this amounts to is that Cyril’s doctrine of the single divine hypostasis insists that although Christ is entirely human, he is not a man, rather he is God made man, God enfleshed, God assuming humanity, or however else one cares to express it so as to bring out the centrally important notion that is was none other than the eternal Word of God who was the sole active subject of the human life of Jesus of Nazareth.

                Cyril’s doctrine has been attacked on the basis of two critiques related to this mono-hypostatic theory. The first, developing from Theodoret, is that Cyril’s idea of the humanity without a human hypostasis (often, though wrongly for reasons which we shall see, called the ‘non-hypostatic doctrine’) meant that he saw Christ’s manhood as abstract and notional, and to this extent defective. The second is that if Christ is God made man, but not particularly and precisely ‘an individual man’, then Cyril is again guilty of diminishing the concept of Christ’s real humanness to the point of Docetism: he is merely an apparent man.

                Neither criticism strictly applies to Cyril’s theology. Despite many avowals by later critics, Cyril did not believe that Christ’s humanity was non-hypostatic or merely generic simply because it did not possess an independent human hypostasis of its own [Tom: As is the case with us; Cyril’s entire argument assumes that was is true in the case of Christ, viz., human nature hypostatized by a sole divine hypostasis, is NOT the case with us; human nature in our individual cases is hypostatized in human hypostases]. For him the whole point of the incarnation was that Christ’s humanity was individual, and concrete, and real in the fullest possible sense, precisely because it was hypostatized by the Logos himself. [Tom: Unlike us.]

 

----------------------

 

Gotta run.

 

Tom

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Suffered impassibly," yeah. Cyril. There's a qualified, carefully expressed, sense in which I'd agree to this (as I would to the term theotokos). But since both are highly predisposed to misunderstanding, I find it easier not to use them.

;o)
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love said...
an authentic human "chooser"
D. turns into a great communicator....before our eyes.


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
"Suffered impassibly," yeah. Cyril. There's a qualified, carefully expressed, sense in which I'd agree to this (as I would to the term theotokos). But since both are highly predisposed to misunderstanding, I find it easier not to use them.

;o)
Which is why -- for that week one summer -- I purposed to merely post quotes so that I could look at them.......rather than to try to debate things I was only struggling to understand and differentiate.
 
 
I needed the disciplinning anyways. Alls good.


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Tom said...
"Suffered impassibly," yeah. Cyril. There's a qualified, carefully expressed, sense in which I'd agree to this (as I would to the term theotokos). But since both are highly predisposed to misunderstanding, I find it easier not to use them.

;o)

BOOK SEARCH ON GOOGLE....
Page 185
One of his favourites was: 'The Logos suffered impassibly'.25 He has often been accused, largely by those who have not read him in context sufficiently, ...
 
 
(Where was Google books when I needed it?)
 


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Wow, this is good!

 

 
 


(o)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: ...an authentic human "chooser"

B: D turns into a great communicator....before our eyes.

T: My problem with it is this: PERSONS choose. Or if you prefer, SUBJECTS choose. And there is no human person/subject in Christ. The chooser/subject is the divine Son. He disposes of himself (makes those choices) in/through the human hardware, yes. But there's no authentic "human chooser" (i.e., "human agent," i.e., "human subject" ) if "chooser" means "one who chooses."

T
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just like that "chooser" is in my vocabulary!


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 9:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom and D. Walk me through this -- Athanasias style -- with the instance of The Garden.


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/4/2009 7:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
The chapter on Nestorius may be worth the whole book. But now that I'm into the chapter on Cyril's Christology the book is paying dividends.
I'm interested in reading the chapter on the chapters burger


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 4/4/2009 7:40:00 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, Tom. Thanks for typin' all of that out. Good reading!

Here's what I see, Tom. You and I are pretty much replaying the whole Nestorius/Apollinarius thing.

I, like Nestorius, am concerned that we affirm that the immutable DUALITY of the Incarnate Word's self-experience because of the ontological distinction within him (Uncreated Holy Spirit and created human spirit). The Unique Incarnate Word is fully divine and fully human, meaning his experience must encompass the fullness of both perspectives. If it is true that 1) the experiences and interpretations of human "spirit" are NOT to be directly associated with the perspective of the Holy Spirit and 2) God the Son never ceases being Creator Logos during Incarnation, then, in my mind, there HAS to be TWO ontologically distinct "realms of consciounsess" that the One Eternal Son is able to work with at the same time, via his TWO spiritual realities, his natural HUMAN spirit and his natural HOLY Spirit. This is why the Church has affirmed that God the Son as Incarnate Word has two wills (human and divine), corresponsive with the two ontologically distinct natures.

You, like Apollinarius and Cyril, are concerned about the immutable UNITY of the Incarnate Word's self-experience because there is only ONE hypostasis that instantiates the Incarnate God, Jesus...and that hypostasis is the Uncreated Person, God the Son. There is no created hypostasis that instantiates Jesus' being in Mary; Jesus is not the product of human procreation, biological or technology. He is ONLY the product of the Incarnation of God's Word through Mary. This preserves not only the unity of his activity as God and Human, but also his uniqueness among all other humans.  This is why the Church has affirmed that God the Son as Incarnate Word has one person (divine) as the hypostasis of Jesus.


I am concerned that your pressing of the Incarnate Son's unity leads you towards Apollinarianism, via replacing Jesus' created individual human spiritual reality with the Uncreated Logos Himself to keep that singularity of subjectivity...leading to a "one-will/mind" Christology.

You are concerned that my pressing of the Incarnate Son's duality leads me towards Nestorianism, via effectively having two self-relational realities in Jesus...leading to a "two-subject/person" Christology.

Does this sound right to you? reading


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/5/2009 4:49:14 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Goodie!


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, that's about it.

Just finished McGuckin's book. Just reading through Cyril's letters and writing now.

Tom
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's why I say what I do...

God the Son's human will and human mind was NEVER involved in His creatio continua activity as Omnipresent Creator Logos, while at the same time, the Divine Will and Divine Mind of God the Son was ALWAYS involved in all of His localized human activity as Israel's Messiah via the Holy Spirit.
 
Basically, I don't believe that the emergent relationship of Baby Jesus' mind/brain relational unity was responsible for constantly creating all of Creation while he slept in the manger!   rotfl


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd say that as well, D.

T
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Yeah, that's about it.

Cool. At least we have a handle on what's what.

________________________________

Tom:
Yeah, that's about it.

Cool. So you ain't monothelite. ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All the positions have their problems. You gotta pick you're poison. Right now two-wills makes a bit more sense to me.

T
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, are you with the "two wills" thing?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
All the positions have their problems. You gotta pick you're poison. Right now two-wills makes a bit more sense to me.

Hallelujah!

hop hop hop hop hop hop hop hop

cheers cheers cheers cheers


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 4:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Eh, hang on...

I thought you were talking about two-minds. Oops.

Two wills? That's a bit harder. Let me finish Cyril. I'm liking this guy right now. If he talks about it we'll see what he says.

;o)
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/5/2009 5:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't see why we can't posit one-will and also say that the human mind of Christ wasn't consciously administering/sustaining the universe but that the divine mind was. You'd need two minds to make this distinction, but not necessarily two wills.

We'll see.

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 4/5/2009 5:05:04 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
182 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:03 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads