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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Cyril of Alexandria | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2009 5:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Damn. Always be gettin' my hopes up...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I don't see why we can't posit one-will and also say that the human mind of Christ wasn't consciously administering/sustaining the universe but that the divine mind was. You'd need two minds to make this distinction, but not necessarily two wills.
Ok. Let's lay things out.
1. Jesus has a non-divine (human) spirit and divine Spirit.
2. Jesus has a non-divine (human) mind and divine mind.
3. The ontological distinction between the human and divine in Jesus is immutable.
Now, let's ask the question: How is "will" involved with the "spirit" and "mind"? IS there involvement to you, Tom?
See, Tom, whatever you decide HAS to give explanatory power to this statement:
"Not MY will (God the Son), but YOUR Will (God the Father) be done!"
In the Trinity, God the Son's will IS God the Father's Will. There is ONE WILL in the Trinity, Tom. So, on the level of the Divine Mind, there is no possible contestation of wills. But in the text, Jesus is clearly saying "NOT MY WILL", meaning he's willing to subordinate his OWN will to his understand of God the Father's Will through human faith. (Drops of blood!) The only way this makes sense, Tom, is if God the Son has an ACTUAL HUMAN WILL linked with the use of a HUMAN MIND (to contemplate God's Will for him and what that meant) and a HUMAN SPIRIT (The "eye of the soul" that is the "organ of faith" in all human beings) that can authentically be freely submitted to the DIVINE WILL of the Trinity.
Tell me if Cyril deals with this... 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 4/5/2009 5:20:27 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Fear not my child.
I think I can agree to two-wills. Yeah. If qualified VERY carefully (like everything in the stinkin' history of these issues).
You'll be happy to know that I have no qualms about the term 'theotokos' (again, if qualified as Cyril does). I don't LIKE the phrase "as is" because it is SO open to misunderstanding as to die the deaths of a thousand qualifications. But properly understood, I got no problems with it.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2009 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Fear not my child.
I think I can agree to two-wills. Yeah. If qualified VERY carefully (like everything in the stinkin' history of these issues).
You'll be happy to know that I have no qualms about the term 'theotokos' (again, if qualified as Cyril does). I don't LIKE the phrase "as is" because it is SO open to misunderstanding as to die the deaths of a thousand qualifications. But properly understood, I got no problems with it.
::: peeks head out of sand:::
(Timid voice) "You...you mean it? Really?  "
Can I celebrate now?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
What I don't want to do is suppose that the human will of Jesus in its natural movement was self-determining apart from the divine person and will of the Son. But I think I'm OK on it.
Alright! (Curbed enthusiasm) 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Why do I feel like we've just climbed a two year mountain, dawg? Whew! 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Why do I feel like we've just climbed a two year mountain, dawg?
T: Probably because for the longest time you wanted to drag your pantheistic/monistic tendencies up with us. Only after sweating drops of blood was I able to wrest from you a confession to the effect that we're personally distinct from God as non-divine persons-in-relation.
Heh.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Why do I feel like we've just climbed a two year mountain, dawg?
T: Probably because for the longest time you wanted to drag your pantheistic/monistic tendencies up with us. Only after sweating drops of blood was I able to wrest from you a confession to the effect that we're personally distinct from God as non-divine persons-in-relation.
I will say that you have drawn me from the brink of a MORE FUZZY panentheistic, antinomial monodualistic, inconceivable-oneness-in-difference, attributive monism that would have been functionally no different than absolute monism...so thanks.
But I'm STILL a panentheistic, antinomial monodualistic, inconceivable-oneness-in-difference, attributive monist. 
I'm not just going to forget Loder and Nesteruk.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Something else though. In the mystical journey, it's a REALLY deep temptation to fall into the "more fuzzy" view. Seriously. The mystical tradition is full of train wrecks where people ended up calling themselves "God", with great misunderstanding. They become spiritually deluded and fodder for the Evil One.
I can DEFINITELY say that this conversation has helped me from falling into that. I'm QUITE grateful to the Lord for this board and conversation...cause it could have gone that way.
But dangers just lie in stuff like that. Just like we see in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements. Actually, ever heard of William Branham or Alexander Dowie? I had to read about them in sem. Good examples of what can go wrong when moving in the Spirit.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 4/5/2009 5:48:49 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | There are fewer people in the world than fingers on two hands who even understand what you're talking about, so I'm not worried. Such language isn't likely to make it into our liturgies or shared worship.
Down where the rest of us live and worship, in simplicity, the 'person' we become isn't one of the three divine persons, even if we only BECOME the person we become in-relation-to the divine persons.
;o) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:47 AM (GMT -6) | | D: functionally no different than absolute monism
T: Then we aren't even climbing the same mountain, dude. Damn.
How can a REAL ontological distinction not be a FUNCTIONAL distinction. And IF NOT FUNCTIONAL, then how so ONTOLOGICAL?
No party for me.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Wait...what?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:50 AM (GMT -6) | | I was saying that this conversation SAVED ME from falling into a view that was "functionally no different than absolute monism." Did you get that? Well, God used our conversation to save me. You know what I mean... 
Saved from the "more fuzzy."
Actual quote:
I will say that you have drawn me from the brink of a MORE FUZZY panentheistic, antinomial monodualistic, inconceivable-oneness-in-difference, attributive monism that would have been functionally no different than absolute monism...so thanks.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 4/5/2009 5:56:47 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
There are fewer people in the world than fingers on two hands who even understand what you're talking about, so I'm not worried. Such language isn't likely to make it into our liturgies or shared worship.
Down where the rest of us live and worship, in simplicity, the 'person' we become isn't one of the three divine persons, even if we only BECOME the person we become in-relation-to the divine persons.
All I have to do is talk about hesychasm, epiklesis, and theosis...and I'll be good. Many of the realities are expressed in LIVING those doctrines. Evangelicalism COULD understand these things more...if they opened up more to the East (EO).
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2009 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | D: I was saying that this conversation SAVED ME from falling into a view that was "functionally no different than absolute monism." Did you get that?
T: Oh. Ha! I thought you meant it was functionally the same.
Party on.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2009 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | Party central...keep dancin...
"I'll Be Around"
Cee-lo feat. Timbaland
Shout out to tha' Dirty South. Country til' "I" go. RIP Granddaddy, Mama Georgia, DJ Screw, Pimp C...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 4/5/2009 6:45:36 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2009 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
I was saying that this conversation SAVED ME from falling into a view that was "functionally no different than absolute monism."
Saved from the "more fuzzy." Bless the Lord!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/5/2009 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2009 7:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2009 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | On a slightly different note:
Great couple of lines from Cyril’s 3rd Letter to Nestorius (Fall of 430 AD):
“There is, therefore, one Christ and Son and Lord, not as though a man simply had a conjunction with God as though in a unity of honor or sovereignty, for equality of honor does not unite natures. Indeed Peter and John have equality of honor with one another since they are both apostles and holy disciples, but these two are not one. [Tom: He’s targeting Nestorius’ attempt to explain the unity of Christ in terms of “honor and sovereignty”: that was Nestorius’ move. It’s the next part of Cyril’s letter that interests me….] We do not conceive the manner of the conjunction in terms of juxtaposition (for this is not enough for a natural union), nor indeed in terms of a relational participation in the way that ‘being joined to the Lord we are one spirit with him’ as it is written (1Cor 6.17). In fact, we reject the term ‘conjunction’ as being insufficient to signify the union.”
In the italicized/bold portion Cyril puts his finger on a long-standing concern of mine to make a distinction in the manner of divine-human union as instantiated by Christ from that instantiated by any one of us and my further claim that those at Chalcedon (a mere 25 years later, just after Cyril’s death) were working under the same assumption here expressed by Cyril, namely, that in positing of Christ “one hypostasis, two natures” they were insisting on one thing in Christ’s case and another in ours, or more specifically, they were not permitting in Christ’s case what they allowed in ours—namely, divine-human relationality on a person-to-person, or inter-hypostatic, level. The “one hypostasis/two natures” of God incarnate is an utterly unique and unrepeatable thing. Cyril is clear—whatever else it may mean for a believer to “be one spirit with him through being joined to the Lord” it is not the case that Christ exemplifies this particular relational structure (or “relational participation,” in Cyril’s words).
T | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2009 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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