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One Love
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   Posted 4/7/2009 2:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Theosissssss....
 
The Little Flower is not a theologian but we can see a glimpse of what it is like to be a god. It is to address God personally as a "You." God is no longer an abstract being, but a concrete "You." This I-Thou relationship is not just a fuzzy type of "luv" but a real self-giving, a kenosis. It is dying to one's self. It means one no longer wanting to live as oneself, but to be possessed by God Himself. We read St. John of the Cross saying:
 
1. I no longer live within myself and I cannot live without God, for having neither him nor myself what will life be? It will be a thousand deaths, longing for my true life and dying because I do not die.
 
2. This life that I live is no life at all, and so I die continually until I live with you; hear me, my God: I do not desire this life, I am dying because I do not die.
 
3. When I am away from you what life can I have except to endure the bitterest death known? I pity myself, for I go on and on living, dying because I do not die.
 
4. A fish that leaves the water has this relief: the dying it endures ends at last in death. What death can equal my pitiable life? For the longer I live, the more drawn out is my dying.
 
5. When I try to find relief seeing you in the Sacrament, I find this greater sorrow: I cannot enjoy you wholly. All things are affliction since I do not see you as I desire, and I die because I do not die.
 
6. And if I rejoice, Lord, in the hope of seeing you, yet seeing I can lose you doubles my sorrow. Living in such fear and hoping as I hope,I die because I do not die.
 
7. Lift me from this death, my God, and give me life; do not hold me bound with these bonds so strong; see how I long to see you; my wretchedness is so complete that I die because I do not die.
 
8. I will cry out for death and mourn my living while I am held here for my sins. O my God, when will it be that I can truly say: now I live because I do not die?
 
Death is the condition, the supreme kenotic act. It is when one no longer wants to live apart from the love of God. It is no coincidence that the death of Jesus Christ was the condition for the eternal life of man.
 
Again, an example from a saint, St. Ignatius of Loyola says,
 
"TAKE, O Lord, and receive all my liberty, my memory, my understanding, and my whole will. Thou hast given me all that I am and all that I possess: I surrender it all to Thee that Thou mayest dispose of it according to Thy will. Give me only Thy love and Thy grace; with these I will be rich enough, and will have no more to desire. Amen."
 
The saint is not concerned with religious experience or even mystical experience. He is simply concerned with the very Person, God. He wants God to take possession of Him and for him to possess God. It means that he becomes the very property of God because He no longer lives, but God who lives in Him (Gal 2:20). Being a god, being a property of God means that God, who is the great I AM, makes the human person, "I am YOURS." You still get to keep your personality, your "I," but it is always seen in relation to God: I am His, or much better, I am YOURS. To partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) is to really become a property of God. But even this analysis does not go far enough. God is not an object but a subject. God is a self-subsistent Self. He cannot be treated as if He is an object.

Finally, if gods are properties of God, because He possesses them, that their identity becomes "I am YOURS," then in what way will we possess God? In other words, what will God's identity be like? This is where my musings will end because I believe I have reached the point where I can only say,

"Eye has not seen nor ear has heard." (1 Corinthians 2:9; Isaiah 64:4)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/7/2009 2:42:53 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/7/2009 2:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole thread


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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Asher
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   Posted 4/7/2009 4:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love "All you have to show me DIRECTLY HOW Dancer B's free choice to be a functional "extension" of Dancer A actually removes Dancer B's freedom as chooser and shaper of their own destiny."

I am SO with you...and SO opposed to you (at least to the extent that I understand your perspective) that it baffles my mind. Let's see whether this helps the understanding.

First some questions, when Dancer B makes their free choice to be an extension of Dancer A...is that choice a once for all time choosing, or must the choice be a constant moment by moment existential choosing? Once having chosen, can the choice be rescinded by Dancer B? When in the course of the dance there are spaces that open up for free expression (i.e. no matter of right or wrong is at stake) and Dancer B has significantly learned the art of dance from Dancer A...when these spaces open up...is Dancer A always the final arbiter of what dance moves will be made? Or can Dancer B take the lead, if you will, and direct Dancer A? Does Dancer A take joy in being led in such a way by Dancer B, or does He always think that His moves would have been better?

Is Dancer B on auto-pilot, so that the dance is similar to what I have seen when a dancer is dancing with a dummy that he holds, so that there is no real dance direction happening, but rather it is only the appearance of dancing, because the master dancer is actually doing all the work, both for himself and of course for the dummy

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra1OhLwkgTI

with the only difference being that the dummy in our case is conscious? But his consciousness is disconnected so that it doesn't accidentally mess up the dance. He just resides in the dummy and enjoys whatever happens to him.

And if Dancer B is not on auto-pilot, can the fact that Dancer B is not omniscient, and therefore subject to epistemic distance from Dancer A, mean that Dancer B sometimes missteps even though he doesn't want to, nor chose to?

D, remember this experience that I shared with you?
When I danced with Jesus, for those twelve minutes or so through 3 playings of Fiona Apple's Waltz, He was leading me in the dance. I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't have led, I couldn't even conceive and think about the idea that it might be possible for me to lead. Not at that moment anyways. (I have since thought about that and decided that Jesus, under different circumstances, would have enjoyed me leading.) But sticking to what happened...I was the whole time cognizant that I could end the dance any time I wanted. Of course, I didn't want to stop it! And toward the end of the second playing of the song, I was aware that the dance was coming to an end, and I didn't want it to, so I asked Jesus to continue the dance through one more time, and He granted it. It was real, it was the most profound experience of my life, and I felt free throughout, I felt respected and loved.

I made a second-by-second choice to continue dancing with Jesus; I was free to stop. In the midst of His leading, when I became aware that we were going to stop, I asked to continue and He honored the request; I was free to change or at least to request change to what otherwise would have happened.

Is this anything like what you are envisioning? If this is it, and we are just using different terminology to describe it, then we can agree that each other's terminology does a poor job of describing the situation to each other's perspective; but we can point behind the terminology to the same experience. And that it is pretty wonderful!

But if we are disagreeing about the phenomenology, then that is where Tom's statement, "God is a free and creative lover. We're MORE like him when we're that than we are when we're anything else. That's the point. God wants us to be (by grace) 'what' he is." comes into play. Because then we are really just saying, "This is who God is"...and we are not agreeing. We are either dancing with different partners (this I do not believe), or one of us is dancing with the other's partner and totally misunderstanding the dance.

Rob
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One Love
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   Posted 4/7/2009 4:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rob:
Is this anything like what you are envisioning?

Pretty much. I just never want to stop dancing, and Jesus keeps leading.  We share the same Breath of God...

Thanks for that, A. ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 4/7/2009 4:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"...constant moment by moment existential choosing."

cheers 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/7/2009 5:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

F R E E   W I L L ...

-quote-

. . .  Meyendorff argues that apokatastasis or universal salvation was rejected by the Council of 554 “precisely because it presupposes an ultimate limitation of human freedom – the freedom to remain outside of God”.

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/Issue3/Casey.htm

 



(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 4/7/2009 5:28:38 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/7/2009 6:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This stuff, right?

But what does "being in Christ" mean concretely? The last quotation — from the Byzantine Eucharistic canon of St. Basil — suggests the answer: through baptism, chrismation, and the Eucharist, man freely becomes a member of the risen Body of Christ.

This element of freedom — and even of "consciousness" — is essential to the doctrine of salvation as understood by the Byzantine patristic, sacramental, and liturgical tradition. On the one hand, there are emphatic affirmations of the universality of redemption. Gregory of Nyssa, for example, assures us that



As the principle of death took its rise in one person and passed on in succession through the whole of the human nature, so the principle of the Resurrection extends from one person to the whole of humanity... This is the mystery of God’s plan with regard to His death and His resurrection from the dead.35


And his thoughts on the universality of redemption and "recapitulation" are echoed by Maximus the Confessor. On the other hand, the new life in Christ implies personal and free commitment. On the last day, the Resurrection will indeed be universal, but blessedness will be given only to those who longed for it. Nicholas Cabasilas tells us that baptismal "resurrection of nature" is a free gift from God given even to children who do not express consent; but "the Kingdom, the contemplation of God, and common life with Christ belong to free will." 36

Byzantine theologians seldom devote much explicit attention to speculation about the exact fate of souls after death. The fact that the Logos assumed human nature as such implied the universal validity of redemption but not the apokatastasis or universal salvation, a doctrine which in 553 was formally condemned as Origenistic. Freedom must remain an inalienable element of every man, and no one is to be forced into the Kingdom of God against his own free choice; the apotytastasis had to be rejected precisely because it presupposed an ultimate limitation of human freedom — the freedom to remain outside of God.

But by rejecting God, human freedom, in fact, destroys itself. Outside of God, man ceases to be authentically and fully human. He is enslaved to the devil through death. This idea, which is central to Maximian thought and which makes him profess so strongly the existence of a human created will in Christ, serves as the basis of the Byzantine understanding of the destiny of man: participation in God, or "deification" (theōsis) as the goal of human existence.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/7/2009 10:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
great


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/7/2009 11:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sweet.

Are you open to changing your perspective on this, Tom? :-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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Tom
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   Posted 4/8/2009 8:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: "...constant moment by moment existential choosing."

Tom: But choosing what? Just resignation. No creative expression. No dance. Just the choice to NOT do or be any of these things.

D: All you have to show me DIRECTLY HOW Dancer B's free choice to be a functional "extension" of Dancer A actually removes Dancer B's freedom as chooser and shaper of their own destiny.

Tom: Who's talking about destiny? Our destiny is determined by God. That's secure and settled. There's no war to fight, and no risk to manage. There's just the bliss and enjoyment of celebrating relational intimacy.

Anybody who dances knows it's never the case that one dancer determines everything about the other. If that were to happen, it wouldn't be a dance. One leads, sure. The leader determines the dances destiny, the main direction and themes of the dance. But the following partner determines much about its individual movement and the shape of its unique contribution.

Asher: with the only difference being that the dummy in our case is conscious?

Tom: Right.

D: Are you open to changing your perspective on this, Tom?

Tom: On God's desire that we be creative lovers? That be be and do by grace what God is and does naturally?

T
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might-be-don
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   Posted 4/8/2009 9:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love, just a thought.... Having "known" you now since your first arrival on the board; I see your current stance as maybe one way you have found to continue to embrace your "Theistic Bootlicking" that you were so firmly holding in the beginning.

Have you just circled back there ?

Like I said, just a thought that came to mind.

peace, don


The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.
 

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 11:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MBD:
One Love, just a thought.... Having "known" you now since your first arrival on the board; I see your current stance as maybe one way you have found to continue to embrace your "Theistic Bootlicking" that you were so firmly holding in the beginning.

Have you just circled back there ?


Actually, I think it just further developed. Transition from "Knight of Infinite Resignation" to "Knight of Faith." That's all.
 
I have a big quote from Loder on just this thing, if you wish...  :-)
 
I think I may just post it anyways for Tom...

----------------------------------------------------------


D: "...constant moment by moment existential choosing

Tom: But choosing what? Just resignation. No creative expression. No dance. Just the choice to NOT do or be any of these things.[/1]

See above. icon_brows2


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/8/2009 11:13:19 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 11:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Anybody who dances knows it's never the case that one dancer determines everything about the other. If that were to happen, it wouldn't be a dance. One leads, sure. The leader determines the dances destiny, the main direction and themes of the dance. But the following partner determines much about its individual movement and the shape of its unique contribution.

Perfect synergeia of the Spiritual Presence of Christ and the human spirit of the believer.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 1:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Loder Quote.
 
Knight's Move. Chapter 5: Complementarity and Christology: Kierkegaard and the Logic of Chalcedon. Pp. 111-113.
 
No emphases this time.   Just read.  :-)
 
-------------------------------------------

Completeness: Negative
In the negative modality of Religiousness A, we can read about Kierkegaard's "knight of resignation" who affirmed the authenticity of his existence by completely and totally renouncing it before God. In this extreme antithesis between the eternal and the existential, is it assumedn that even God has renounced one's existence. As a consequence, renunciation of self si the only way to agree with God's will. This calls to mind similar paradoxical negations such as the Puritan rubric, "willing to be damned for the glory of God," and Paul's apparent willingness to be damned for the salvation of the Jews (Rom. 9).

The paradox lies in the notion that such total devotion could be viewed by a just God as worthy of damnation. This is possible only because, lacking what Kierkegaard understood by faith, one has such a radical sense of the otherness of God that one's own existence is "a mere breath" before the justice and glory of God. Thus Abraham's faith of resignation would not impose even the slightest human claim--even his memory of God's promise--upon God. One can only fall into silence--favete linguis, as Kierkegaard says--before the faith of Abraham.

Although this stance makes an accurate assumption about the totality of commitment required for knowledge of the truth, it is still in a negative modality. In support of this negative totalism is must be argued that one cannot hold God or eternity in one hand and one's human existence in the other, and expect to be anything but divided and unfaithful to both. Complete, continuing, and total negation of one's own existence before God's negation of oneself does the proper work of letting God be God and, correlatively, of insisting on oneself being only and nothing but the self defined by God, even if that be a negation of the self and annihilation in death and damnation.

It should be said here, though it will be discussed at greater length later, that this position becomes livable only through a profound sense of humor. The radical discontinuity with everyday or aesthetic assumptions about reality which total resignation implie, also gives rise to humor. Thus, one will respond to a casual farewell "see you tomorrow" with "Deo volente." Who knows about tomorrow? Only God, whoever that may be. This is reminiscent of Jesus' humor in statements such as "take the beam out of your own eyes" or "the camel passing through the eye of the needle." However, Jesus' humor is designed to disclose the presence of an unbelievably gracious God rather than the radical unavailability of an unknown God. Still, both types of statements are humorous because of the radical contrasts they draw to our ordinary ways of thinking.

For Kierkegaard, faith turns the radical renunciation around without losing its invaluable tensive unity. We need to remember that even this negative totalism is bipolar. Each part, the eternal, negating God an the existing, self-negating self, implicity contains the whole; but both are necessitated and implied by this Kierkegaardian version of the radical renunciation required for knowledge of ultimate truth.


Equal Necessity: Negative
Let us spell out the dialectical necessity for bipolarity in negative totalism. Radical renunciation does not mean elimination of the opposite polarity. In fact, it dialectically affirms its necessity. There could be no renunciation if there were not something to renounce. It is necessary for renunciation that the opposite be there and be real, but in this case the self-renunciation of the existing individual is in conformity to the renunciation presupposed by the eternal, hence negating, God. Here self-renunciation implies saying Yes to No.

If this is not the case, or if the opposite polarity is not real, then the total significance of self-renunciation as a mode of union or reunion is lost, and the situation dissolves into double-talk. Thus, the negative whole is required by and contained in the negation of each part, but both existence and eternity are necessary. Even though an observer might gain a grasp of the whole negative situation by wondering at the passionate, self-abnegating seeker or the ardent knight of self-renunciation, or be dumbfounded at the wholly otherness of God, human nature requires both completeness and equal necessity, even in the context of negative totalism.


Completeness: Positive
In the positive modality of Religiousness B, the knight of faith, like the knight of renunciation, contains the whole in his individuality, but he does it by affirmation. Kierkegaard mocks those who expect to see in the knight of faith someone who has "one eye cocked toward eternity" or who allows "sighs of infinite awareness" to escape from him. The totalism of renunication is preserved as totalism, but now it is totally affirmative. He is totally affirmed in his humanity.

In this case, as in the negative, the freedom to be totally human is simultaneously a freedom to let God be God. Since, indeed, God will inevitably be God, letting God be God for oneself thrusts one most profoundly into the created order of human existence. (OL's Note: Mundane ecstasy; movement from two-storey to one-story thinking, etc ) In this complete 180 degree reversal of the negative situation, the radical affirmation of one's human totality takes in the whole bipolarity of faith--so the knight's solidity is his transparency. Faith's radical affirmation of the human necessarily includes, by implication, radical affirmation of the God who made true humanity a bearer of God.


Equal Necessity: Positive
Of course, if God does not have an independent reality all God's own, then letting God be God is a fantasy. However, fantasy does not thrust one into human particularity with a profound sense of being loved, nor does it give one freedom to choose for the full concreteness of one's life, including one's own death. Fantasy is a defense against all this and a hidden cry of despair--what Kierkegaard called "the despair of the infinite." Thus, the reality of the eternal God is a logical and ontological necessity in complementarity with the ontology of human existence, as affirmed by the knight of faith.

In the positive mode B, the equal necessity of both existence and eternity is more evident that in the negative modality A, since an analogy of the fullness of humanity and the fullness of God in Jesus Christ, the God-man, has now been bestowed upon the believer in faith. Complete embeddedness in the created order, so as to see it fully for what it is, is not possible without eternity's abiding in a transformed humanity, and human existence as transformed embodying eternity in such a way as to make a deepening of one reciprocally a heightening of the other. This of course follows, as B follows from A, since no complete tranformation could take place for Religiousness B that did not include both eternity and existence as intensely polarized as they wer for the situation of Religiousness A.

Though this case is easily stated, it is not easily appropriated. The history of doctrine up to the time of Chalcedon is replete with heresies which as Pascal said were basically due to the exclusion of one side or the other of the nature of Jesus Christ. This dominance of one side over the other was detrimental to the Christian life, as surely as it was a danger to sound doctrine. In Kierkegaard's careful investigation of Magister Adler's visions and voices, he concluded in an uncharacteristic phrase that Adler need to study "dogmatics"* This was not merely for doctrine's own sake. Rather, Kierkegaard recognized the equal necessity of both existence and eternity in the complementarity of faith, lest visions of eternity belie existence, or the struggle with existence make one despair of eternity.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 2:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Reposting...

**********************************************

In our discussion of common properties pertaining to existence and eternity we could see the implicit conjugate factors of the particular and the universal.  These conjugates are evident as such in both the void of ultimate negation and in the presence of God’s Grace. 

 

First, in respect to existence, we will focus on particularity, the uniqueness of the individual, noting again that despair is a fragmentation of human existence at the point of selfhood.  The point at which one grasps personal uniqueness, or one’s own particularity, is precisely where the disintegration of despair resides.  It is the condition of the self in which factors such as “possibility” and “necessity,” “finite” and “infinite” (cf. Sickness unto Death), are split off from each other, each fragment deepening despair as it alternately dominates or succumbs to the other in the human struggle to be a particular self, an “individual” in the fullest sense.

 

Second, in respect to the eternal, at the same level of abstraction, we see the conjugate of particularity: universality.  In (Religiousness) A, universality is an unspecifiable notion associated somewhat vaguely with preexistence,  “the transcendent,” or the “Absolute,” which is “ubique et nusquam” (everywhere and nowhere).  However, universality, regardless of how well formulated as a principle, will prove to be only negatively and unredemptively related to the fragmentation of human particularity.  No conception of universality is any match for the ultimacy of the abyss.  Such conceptions only tend to undermine the significance of particular individuals rather than relieve their despair.  Thus, the interplay of these key conjugate properties—the despairing fragmentation of the particular versus the impotent allness of the universal---serves to intensify the negation and renunciation by which the modality of A as a whole is characterized.

 

The same conjugate properties pertain in the positive mode, Religiousness B, but now they and their relationality are transformed into key constituents of the unity of faith through confrontation with the God-man.  Complementarity continues to pertain between eternity and existence, but now they conjugate aspects of particularity and universality are constitutive of a positive condition.

 

The knight of faith, who for Kierkegaard exemplified existence as transformed, exhibits a profound sense of the universal significance of particularity in and for human nature.  Thus Kierkegaard’s scandalous claim that “subjectivity is truth” gains intelligibility in light of the conjugate relations between particularity and universality.  Kierkegaard is not advocating solipsism, nor is he even talking about nihilism—subjective immersion in the universal absurdity of the human situation.  Rather, he is making the claim that only through deeply indwelt particularity is universality able to be known and appropriated.  Logically, the universal is not truly universal if it does not embrace particularity per se.  This logical paradox, which appears in science as the problem of singularity, is resolvable at the human level only through faith and the transformative power of the God-man.  In faith, one is freed from conceptual and cultural illusions of universality (universal laws of nature, ethics, society, etc.)  in order to enter fully into God’s creation through the particularity of one’s own existence.  The surprise is that precisely through the full appropriation of one’s own particularity, universality comes to light everywhere in all creation.  Thus, Kierkegaard writes that the knight of faith “…takes delight in everything, and whenever one sees him taking part in a particular pleasure, he does it with the persistence which is the mark of the earthly man whose soul is absorbed in such things…Yet he does not do the least thing except by virtue of the absurd [the God-man received in faith].”

 

The God-man reverses and transforms the logical paradox in the relation of the universal and the particular precisely because that which is truly and fully universal (eternal) has already been manifested from the Godward side in the historical particularity (existence) of the God-man paradox.  Once the full and true nature of the universal has been revealed in a particular historical event, then by faith, existential particularity can be appropriated in and for its universal significance.  Thus the claim that “subjectivity is truth” is not subjectivism but a veiled reference (unveiled in its appropriation) to the incarnation, wherein the particular subject was, indeed, the bearer of all truth.

 

In this understanding, human existence should not be conceived dualistically (as in idealism) or mystically (as in some Eastern thought) as a covert bearer of the universal, as if human nature were divided half-and-half and could be unified only by yielding up existence to some vague nether state of eternal wholeness.  Rather, through the affirmation of human existence as transformed by the God-man, universality and particularity become definitive conjugate terms, positively correlated by means of the same model of complementarity of particularity and universality in the despair of void and meaninglessness.

 

The full colorful scope of this interplay between conjugate terms is exhibited in Kierkegaard’s portrayal of the knight of faith, but it must suffice here to say that two essential conjugate properties of human nature in the context of faith are: the eternal as universality actualized in the particular, and existence as particularity embodying the universal.
 

James E. Loder
Knight’s Move
Chapter 5--"Complementarity and Christology: Kierkegaard and the Logic of Chalcedon"
Pages 103-105


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 2:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From "Theistic Bootlicker"...to "Theophiliac."


One Love, baby... ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/8/2009 2:14:47 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/8/2009 2:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

On resignation...yes, we resign ourselves (our identities, our destinies, our dependency, our fulfillment, our everything) to God. Only God can tell us who we are, only he can satisfy. We do indeed ‘resign’ ourselves to God’s prerogatives here. No problem. In becoming a creative lover, I do not see myself as having embraced something other than such resignation. That’s not the sense of resignation I’m objecting to.

 

In my view D, there is no divine address to the creature in personal terms if God is all-determining of creative expression. But on your view every creature makes one and the same choice, freely determines itself in exactly the same, precise terms/way: “God, I choose one thing, to be determined by you.” There's no abiding, creative, unique, personal expression that marks created distinction.

 

On synergeia...yes, but again, just what is working together? When a Daddy tells his daughter “Draw me a picture” (and he provides the means, medium, and abilities) and the daughter determines the content and form creatively...that is synergy. It IS a perfect blending of heart and mind, a co-intending of distinct persons toward one and the same goal. When the daughter determines her own creative expression, she wills what God wills and does what God wants. God’s one will is accomplished in and by creatures who self-determine creative expression.

 

T

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 2:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom,

What did you think about St. Ignatius of Loyola's prayer?

"TAKE, O Lord, and receive all my liberty, my memory, my understanding, and my whole will. Thou hast given me all that I am and all that I possess: I surrender it all to Thee that Thou mayest dispose of it according to Thy will. Give me only Thy love and Thy grace; with these I will be rich enough, and will have no more to desire. Amen."

Would you pray that prayer every moment of your life? If not, why not? What do you think about someone who would pray that every moment?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/8/2009 2:38:12 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/8/2009 2:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You'll have to translate all that Loder into English for me, D.

I'm a simple guy. All the high-end lingo escapes me. And the little I think I understood was so foreign to anything like a biblical portrayal of faith. I wondered if he was smoking something while he wrote. Seriously.

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 4/8/2009 2:52:01 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/8/2009 2:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: What did you think about St. Ignatius of Loyola's prayer? "TAKE, O Lord, and receive all my liberty, my memory, my understanding, and my whole will. Thou hast given me all that I am and all that I possess: I surrender it all to Thee that Thou mayest dispose of it according to Thy will. Give me only Thy love and Thy grace; with these I will be rich enough, and will have no more to desire. Amen."

T: It's a bit self-contradictory. He starts out giving everything to God, disawoing any right to tell God want to do, and then ends by telling God what to do. By what right or insight does HE decide to tell God to give him ONLY love and grace? What if God wants to tell him to paint a picture? To be a creative lover? We receive from God what GOD WANTS TO GIVE US, and as I read my Bible it seems pretty clear that God's ultimate goal for us is not for God to determine us, but for us to be determine ourselves in love and creative expression. We're MORE like God when we're that than we are when we're determined by God.

I don't know Bro. Just different intuitions and perspectives.

T
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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 3:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
You'll have to translate all that Loder into English for me, D.

I'm a simple guy. All the high-end lingo escapes me. And the little I think I understood was so foreign to anything like a biblical portrayal of faith. I wondered if he was smoking something while he wrote. Seriously.


It really amazes me that you don't understand him. I got the friggin book FROM you, dude...with the notes and erythang! Whussup???  icon_smile_shock  
 
***************************************
Tom:
[It's a bit self-contradictory. He starts out giving everything to God, disawoing any right to tell God want to do, and then ends by telling God what to do. By what right or insight does HE decide to tell God to give him ONLY love and grace? What if God wants to tell him to paint a picture? To be a creative lover? We receive from God what GOD WANTS TO GIVE US, and as I read my Bible it seems pretty clear that God's ultimate goal for us is not for God to determine us, but for us to be determine ourselves in love and creative expression. We're MORE like God when we're that than we are when we're determined by God.
 
So you wouldn't pray the prayer is what you are saying, right?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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Tom
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   Posted 4/8/2009 3:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I should be kinder to Ignatius I guess. Hey, I can pray that prayer D, yeah. But I don't think I'd MEAN what he means, or what you think he means, or what you'd mean, when you pray it, i.e., "God, determine me. Let me be your manikin."

T
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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 3:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Hey, I can pray that prayer D, yeah. But I don't think I'd MEAN what he means, or what you think he means, or what you'd mean, when you pray it, i.e., "God, determine me. Let me be your manikin."

The prayer goes...

"TAKE, O Lord, and receive all my liberty, my memory, my understanding, and my whole will. Thou hast given me all that I am and all that I possess: I surrender it all to Thee that Thou mayest dispose of it according to Thy will. Give me only Thy love and Thy grace; with these I will be rich enough, and will have no more to desire. Amen."

Now, maybe I'm taking this too literally. But if all of my personal understanding, historical memory, and volitional power are surrendered to God such that God "mayest dispose of it" according to his will...how is this NOT asking God to "determine" you, at least functionally?


PS: Mannequin. ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 4/8/2009 3:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, Jeff and/or Corey...can you help translate? 
 
Corey, you know SK and the terminology. Help, please?  drowning


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/8/2009 3:14:53 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/8/2009 3:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, then I wouldn't pray that prayer. I give the use of all these things to God, to please him, to employ them as he desires, yes. I think he desires that we employ them in being creative lovers.

Dude, I literally cannot conceive, can't get my head around, can't imagine, can't picture...God WANTING to determine everything about us.

T
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