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One Love
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   Posted 4/9/2009 3:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sheesh, dude. I'm from central Texas, homie. My dad was a boot-scooter, listenin' to country WAY before I knew about any of this.

I've always liked country. And Aki and I can't wait for Cinqo de Mayo.  They do it big here in the Twin Cities.  But it's nuthin' like in Tejas.  Yessir...ah, Texas.

Good beer and better barbeque. YeeeeeHAAAAAAAAW!


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 4/9/2009 3:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole Thread


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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Tom
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   Posted 4/10/2009 10:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I enjoyed Cyril. Read some of his stuff. I'll make my way back to him in the future. Readin' Gregory of Nyssa right now. Roughly 1,000 pages of all his stuff. Hope to finish it before I come home. Got Pseudo-Dionysius as well. After that, Origen.

Tom
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/10/2009 11:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
Gregory of Nyssa
CLICK....
Page 12
The ascent of the human soul to God is thus described by Gregory of Nyssa as a process of elimination which, however, never truly reaches a positive end: ...


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/10/2009 11:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

MORE

Page 37
Gregory of Nyssa, in particular, had to defend himself against the accusation of tritheism; ...

 

Page 38
Already in Gregory of Nyssa, true human freedom does not consist in autonomous human life, but in the situation which is truly natural to man's communion ...
 
 
 
Page 59
... of a Gregory of Nyssa, and his doctrine of God in relation ...
Page 72
The total transcendence and inaccessibility of the essence of God becomes, in Maximus — as, before him in Gregory of Nyssa, and after him in later Byzantine ...
 
 
Page 135
This is the interpretation which Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus apply to the passage of Genesis 3:21 about the "garments of skin" given to Adam and Eve after ...
 
 
Page 138
... Nyssa, in his treatise On the Creation of Man, in discussing man before the Fall, attributes to him the "beatitude of immortality," "justice," "purity. ...
 
 
Page 169
Gregory of Nyssa reports the ancient variant for the text of the Lord's prayer, "Thy Kingdom come," in Luke 11:2, as "May Thy Holy Spirit come upon us and ...
 
 
Page 172
The theme of "light," which, through Origen and Gregory of Nyssa, permitted the association of the Biblical ...
 
 
Page 180
It is well known that, during the theological debates of the fourth century, the Cappadocian Fathers were accused of tritheism, so that Gregory of Nyssa was ...
 
 
Page 183
18 Developing his well-known doctrine of the divine image in man, Gregory of Nyssa defines one aspect of human personal existence which is clearly different ...
 
 
Page 185
It is in the fundamental oneness of these "acts" or "energies" of God that the Greek Fathers, particularly Basil and Gregory of Nyssa, ...
 
 
Page 201
Speaking of the Eucharist, Chrysostom insists that "Christ even now is present, even now operates";1 and Gregory of Nyssa, in spite of the Platonizing ...
 
THESE ABOVE ARE JUST IN GOOGLE, WHICH IS SO SEARCHABLE. WE HAVE A LINK TO THE THOLE THING TOO:

 


(o)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/10/2009 11:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: Already in Gregory of Nyssa, true human freedom does not consist in autonomous human life, but in the situation which is truly natural to man's communion...

T: Thanks for the quotes, B. I don't doubt that I'll find stuff to disagree with. ;o) This might be one. We'll see just what he has in mind by "autonomous." But if we're just talking about the free determination of creative, loving expression...then what could be MORE NATURAL to our communion with God? In other words, why should the understanding that being truly free means truly fulfilling our natural designs rule out our being self-determining with regard to loving expression? I don't at all see that. Quite the opposite of course! Our nature is most truly what it was designed to be when it freely determines itself in loving expression.

Looking forward to getting into him.

T
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/10/2009 11:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
:-)


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/10/2009 12:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BEHR  (from a book that I have)
 
 
 


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/10/2009 12:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Don;t have this, neither have I read... but the two matters below sound important:

On the Soul and Resurrection  
St Gregory of Nyssa
 

The resurrection of the body, perhaps more than any other Christian doctrine, requires us to face the implications of faith for our personal lives and for our understanding of the world.

This issue faced St Paul in his dealing with the early church and also troubles St Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century AD. St Gregory, educated in the prevailing Greek philosophical system, yearned to synthesize his faith and his philosophy. Struggling with the issue of resurrection, he followed Plato's example and dramatized the interior workings of his mind in dialogue form, in which his elder sister St Macrina plays the role of teacher.

The position which Gregory and Macrina eventually reach corresponds essentially to that of St Paul, namely that our bodies will rise again as bodies, but in a finer and more glorious form than we have now. Expressing this belief in terms of Greek silence, the dialogue assumes that the same physical elements which compose our present bodies much be reassembled in our resurrection bodies; otherwise our bodies would be recreated rather than raised.


(o)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/11/2009 6:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

On Gregory of Nyssa (Schaff/Moore/Wilson):

 

If we take for illustration of this the most vital point in the vast system, if system it can be called, of Origen, we shall see that he had traced fundamental lines of thought, which could not in that age be easily left. He asserts the virtual freedom of the human will, in every stage and condition of human existence. The Greek philosophy of the third century, and the semi-pagan Gnosticism, in their emanational view of the world, denied this freedom. With them the mind of man, as one of the emanations of Deity itself, was, as much as the matter of which the world was made, regulated and governed directly from the Source whence they both flowed. Indeed every system of thought, not excepting Stoicism, was struck with the blight of this fatalism. There was no freedom for man at all but in the system which Origen was drawing from, or rather reading into, the Scriptures. No Christian philosopher who lived amongst the same counter-influences as Origen could overlook this starting-point of his system; he must have adopted it, even if the danger of Pelagianism had been foreseen in it; which could not have been the case.

 

Gregory adopted it, with the other great doctrine which in the mind of Origen accompanied it; i.e., that evil is caused, not by matter, but by the act of this free will of man; in other words, by sin. Again the fatalism of all the emanationists had to be combated as to the nature and necessity of evil. With them evil was some inevitable result of the Divine processes; it abode at all events in matter, and human responsibility was at an end. Greek philosophy from first to last had shewed, even at its best, a tendency to connect evil with the lower φύσις. But now, in the light of revelation, a new truth was set forth, and repeated again and again by the very men who were inclined to adopt Plato’s rather Dualistic division of the world into the intelligible and sensible. ‘Evil was due to an act of the will of man.’ Moreover it could no longer be regarded per se: it was relative, being a ‘default,’ or ‘failure,’ or ‘turning away from the true good’ of the will, which, however, was always free to rectify this failure. It was a στέρησις,—loss of the good; but it did not stand over against the good as an independent power. Origen contemplated the time when evil would cease to exist; ‘the non-existent cannot exist for ever:’ and Gregory did the same.

 

This brings us to yet another consequence of this enthusiasm for human freedom and responsibility, which possessed Origen, and carried Gregory away. The ἀποκατάστασις τῶν πάντων has been thought, in certain periods of the Church, to have been the only piece of Origenism with which Gregory can be charged. [This of course shows ignorance of the kind of influence which Gregory allowed Origen to have over him; and which did not require him to select even one isolated doctrine of his master.] It has also brought him into more suspicion than any other portion of his teaching. Yet it is a direct consequence of the view of evil, which he shares with Origen. If evil is the non-existent, as his master says, a στέρησις, as he says, then it must pass away. It was not made by God; neither is it self-subsisting.

 

--------------

 

II. But nevertheless much had happened in the interval of 130 years that divides them and this leads us to consider the limits which the state of the Church, as well as Gregory’s own originality and more extended physical knowledge, placed upon the complete filling in of the outlines sketched by the master. First and chiefly, Origen’s doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul could not be retained; and we know that Gregory not only abandoned it, but attacked it with all his powers of logic in his treatise, De Animâ et Resurrectione: for which he receives the applause of the Emperor Justinian. Souls, according to Origen, had pre-existed from eternity: they were created certainly, but there never was a time when they did not exist: so that the procession even of the Holy Spirit could in thought only be prior to their existence. Then a failure of their free wills to grasp the true good, and a consequent cooling of the fire of love within them, plunged them in this material bodily existence, which their own sin made a suffering one. This view had certainly great merits: it absolved the Deity from being the author of evil, and so was a ‘théodicée’; it entirely got rid of the two rival principles, good and evil, of the Gnostics; and it avoided the seeming incongruity of what was to last forever in the future being not eternal in the past.

 

Why then was it rejected? Not only because of the objection urged by Methodius, that the addition of a body would be no remedy but rather an increase of the sin; or that urged amongst many others by Gregory, that a vice cannot be regarded as the precursor of the birth of each human soul into this or into other worlds; but more than that and chiefly, because such a doctrine contravened the more distinct views now growing up as to what the Christian creation was, and the more careful definitions also of the Trinity now embodied in the creeds. In fact the pre-existence of the soul was wrapped up in a cosmogony that could no longer approve itself to the Christian consciousness. In asserting the freedom of the will, and placing in the will the cause of evil, Origen had so far banished emanationism; but in his view of the eternity of the world, and in that of the eternal pre-existence of souls which accompanied it, he had not altogether stamped it out.

 

He connects rational natures so closely with the Deity that each individual λόγος seems almost, in a Platonic way, to lie in the Divine which he styles οὐσία οὐσιῶν, ἰδέα ἰδεῶν. They are ‘partial brightnesses (ἀπαυγάσμαπα) of the glory of God.’ He allows them, of course, to have been created in the Scriptural sense of that word, which is certainly an advance upon Justin; but his creation is not that distinct event in time which Christianity requires and the exacter treatment of the nature of the Divine Persons had now developed. His creation, both the intelligible and visible world, receives from him an eternity which is unnatural and incongruous in relation to his other speculations and beliefs: it lingers, Tithonus-like, in the presence of the Divine Persons, without any meaning and purpose for its life; it is the last relic of Paganism, as it were, in a system which is otherwise Christian to the very core. His strenuous effort to banish all ideas of time, at all events from the intelligible world, ended in this eternal creation of that world; which seemed to join the eternally generated Son too closely to it, and gave occasion to the Arians to say that He too was a κτίσμα. This eternal pre-existence in fact almost destroyed the idea of creation, and made the Deity in a way dependent on His own world. Athanasius, therefore, and his followers were roused to separate the divinity of the Son from everything created. The relation of the world to God could no longer be explained in the same terms as those which they employed to illustrate the relations between the Divine Persons.

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Tom
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   Posted 4/11/2009 6:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D, tell me what you believe to be the difference between "diffuses" (Greg) and "emanates."

T
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One Love
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   Posted 4/12/2009 4:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
D, tell me what you believe to be the difference between "diffuses" (Greg) and "emanates."

For one thing, Greg's view doesn't have the "diffusion" to be a natural process of God's becoming. Greg's diffusion only occurs because a constitutional (rather than definitional) disposition available to God to be a Creator is freely chosen by God to be enacted, retaining the reality of Grace. Using terms I've used before, "I Am" is a definitional disposition of God's eternal self-relationship in God's essential existence...while the "I Am...Immanuel" is a constitutional disposition BASED ON God's eternal self-relationalship which effects a contingent expression of God's essential existence. The ground of created existence is not God's natural becoming, but God's CHOICE to be something else that he wasn't "before": a creator of self-referential beings who could say "God is with us!", fulfilling the "I Am...Immanuel" desire.

How does this work out. According to Greg, God has the constitutional "...disposition to create a matrix of relations with ordinal centers, each of which enjoys and/or contributes to an approximation of divine beauty."  In other words, the ONE disposition to be Creator actually results in "a multiplicity of dispositions which 'aim at' a unique actualization, a unique perspective on reality, which is defined either as an contribution to, and/or an experience of, beauty." So you have a SINGLE enacted uncreated constitutional disposition bringing forth MULTIPLE dispositional aims for perspectivally-limited, particular, unique experiences...and when these "aims" become concrete, the result is ACTUAL non-divine reality. I believe that Greg would say that, in the case of the human being, the non-divine actuality created is NOT simply God doing creaturely action in limited form...but is the basis for an emergent self-relationality which is ontologically distinct and relatively independent of the Divine Ground.

In this, I see the Logos/logoi concept...basically how the subjective aims (which are grounded in ONE Creator) for a particular sentient being "defines the parameters within which the preordained role of the entity within the matrix of being can be played, through exactly how this creativity is in particular actualized is their own doing." (Greg) The individual logos is NOT the emergent soul or the physical body, even thought it supports and circumscribes both the soul and body's becoming. Just like the singularity within a supermassive black hole in the center of a galaxy is NOT galaxy, even though it obviously "disposes" the accretion disk and the rest of the galaxy.  Reposting analogy...
 
________________________________________________________________________________________
 
 
 
 

 
Singularity within a Supermassive black hole within a Galaxy<=> the "Divine Point/Spark"
 
Active galactic nucleus (Big accretion disk) <=> "Human Ego Periphery"
 
Diffuse material gathered in the Accretion Disk <=>Embodied space-time experience.
 
--------------------
 
Basically, the singularity ends up significantly "disposing" the entire galaxy's manner of existence while not truly being directly identifiable with the galaxy itself.  The galaxy "emerges" from the forces involved with the supermassive black hole, especially the singularity within.  But the galaxy is NOT the singularity.
 
________________________________________________________________________________________
 
 
This is like unto that "point of nothingness" that Thomas Merton (and other mystics) talk about that is untouched by creation, but disposes and supports creation.


Something extra. Greg's diffusion doesn't assume that the nature of finitude itself is the direct genesis of sin or evil, but simply the occasion for sin, particular when the created being "curves in on itself" in despairing self-reflection by it's own self-disposition.

Does this help you, Tom?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2009 4:33:23 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/12/2009 6:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Turtle Man, you gotta FEEL me...

An analogy for the unity in diversity in Creation.

The gravitational singularity is the point at which "a point in spacetime in which gravitational forces cause matter to have an infinite density and zero volume." Recent findings indicate singularities exist in the centers of supermassive black hole...which interestingly enough, seem to be in the midst of all galactic formations. Now think about this. Infinity is infinity. You don't have two infinities as such, though you may have two things that "experience" infinity. And I'd bet you and I would agree that there are NO two identical galactic formations in the entire universe. Each galactic formation from the Big Bang forward is irreducibly unique and particular in how it's developed, just like snowflakes.

Now, what's interesting is this: in the midst of each irreducibly unique and particular galactic formation in all of Creation (time AND space wise), there exists a "point of infinitude" that is the source of the disposing "power" of the galactic formation, even though it cannot be considered the galactic formation as such.

Ok...analogy...

Singularity: Divine Presence (Christ-the-Logos) via "individual logos" (God's "subjective aim" for the creature's becoming) constantly sustained by the Creator Spiritus (Holy Spirit of Christ-the-Logos)

Active galactic nucleus (Big accretion disk): Emergent non-corporeal soul of human mind/brain assymetrical relational unity, completely with self-referential, self-transcendence ability.

Diffuse material gathered in the Accretion Disk: Embodied space-time experience.

No two human "persons" are exactly identical ever (all are irreducibly unique)...but there is the same "point of nothingness/infinitity" within EACH person, inextricably linked to the Creator Holy Spirit of Christ-the-Logos.

I know this makes sense....yeah


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2009 2:32:55 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/12/2009 7:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Happy Resurrection Day.

Christ is RISEN!

Heavens and Earth, praise your Ruler and Lord!! 
 
(The song ends at 5:07. )
 
redface redface redface redface redface redface redface redface redface redface redface

"You shall always be..."


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2009 7:16:53 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/12/2009 7:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love said...
Happy Resurrection Day.

Christ is RISEN!

Heavens and Earth, praise your Ruler and Lord!!

http://www.acrod.org/listen.html

Pascha
(The Feast of Our Lord's Resurrection)

1. Introduction to Paschal Matins

2. Ode 1 of the Paschal Matins Canon

3. The Angel Exclaimed

4. Exapostolarion of Paschal Matins
(Having Slept in the Flesh)


5. Christ is Risen (Folk Melody)


(o)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/12/2009 9:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D, I didn't have Christology in mind at all. Wasn't thinking about one person/two natures thing. I was thinking about God's relationship with Creation (big C) and us, non-divine persons especially.

Emanationism was a big deal in Gregory of Nyssa's day. It was the prevailing Greek ontology with which he (and the Nicean gang) disagreed. I'm wondering how you'd differentiate this objectionable emanationism from Greg's diffusion. Greg admitted that he didn't much like the word "diffuses" anyhow (he borrowed it from Edwards, whom he considers to be pantheist). But he uses it nonetheless to express his "corrected" view of Edwards. So far I hear the difference is: The neo-Platonists would say the world emanates necessarily from God. Christians disagreed with this of course. Is that it? I mean, is your view of what we are to God synonymous with emanationism except for this one point (viz., the contingency of the existence of creation)?

I'm just looking for what you'd say to an 4th century neo-Platonist emanationist to identify for him where he's gone wrong.

D: but God's CHOICE to be something else that he wasn't "before": a creator of self-referential beings who could say "God is with us!", fulfilling the "I Am...Immanuel" desire.

T: It's amazing to me still that it's apparently so difficult for you to say we're personally other than God. You cough it up when I insist on it, but you're seem so uncomfortable with the idea.

;o)

Post Edited (Tom) : 4/12/2009 10:49:15 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/12/2009 10:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On a side note, a pleasant little passage from Gregory of Nyssa:

While, however, we strenuously avoid all concurrence with absurd notions in our thoughts of God, we allow ourselves in the use of many diverse appellations in regard to Him, adapting them to our point of view. For whereas no suitable word has been found to express the divine nature, we address God by many names, each by some distinctive touch adding something fresh to our notions respecting Him, thus seeking by variety of nomenclature to gain some glimmerings for the comprehension of what we seek. For when we question and examine ourselves as to what God is, we express our conclusions variously, as that he is that which presides over the system and working of the things that are, that his existence is without cause, while to all else he is the cause of being; that he is that which has no generation or beginning, no corruption, no turning backward, no diminution of supremacy; that he is that in which evil finds no place, and from which no good is absent.

And if anyone would distinguish such notions by words, he would find it absolutely necessary to call that which admits of no changing to the worse ‘unchanging’ and ‘invariable’, and to call the First Cause of all ‘ungenerate’, and that which admits not of corruption ‘incorruptible’; and that which ceases at no limit ‘immortal’ and ‘never failing’; and that which presides over all ‘Almighty’. And so, framing names for all other divine attributes in accordance with reverent conceptions of Him, we designate them now by one name, now by another, according to our varying lines of thought, as power, or strength, or goodness, or ungeneracy, or perpetuity.

I say, then, that men have a right to such word-building, adapting their appellations to their subject, each man according to his judgment; and that there is no absurdity in this, such as our controversialist makes a pretense of, shuddering at it as at some gruesome hobgoblin, and that we are fully justified in allowing the use of such fresh applications of words in respect to all things that can be named, and to God himself.
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One Love
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   Posted 4/12/2009 2:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
So far I hear the difference is: The neo-Platonists would say the world emanates necessarily from God. Christians disagreed with this of course. Is that it? I mean, is your view of what we are to God synonymous with emanationism except for this one point (viz., the contingency of the existence of creation)? I'm just looking for what you'd say to an 4th century neo-Platonist emanationist to identify for him where he's gone wrong.

I'd just say this: Creation is a free, unnecessary, self-giving activity by a self-aware, self-transcendent God, not a necessary emanation of God's essential divinity. I think that would be plenty enough to separate me and the straight-up Neoplatonist.  And I can say that the freedom of the emergent human soul


***************************************************

D: but God's CHOICE to be something else that he wasn't "before": a creator of self-referential beings who could say "God is with us!", fulfilling the "I Am...Immanuel" desire.

T: It's amazing to me still that it's apparently so difficult for you to say we're personally other than God. You cough it up when I insist on it, but you're seem so uncomfortable with the idea.


The created, self-referential beings who can say "God is with us" ARE personally other than God, Tom. That's how they can say "God is with US"..."Us" being personally distinguishable from God. God cannot be "God with us" without the "us", who are self-aware AND aware of Divine Presence.

This just makes sense, right?  Can God be "God with us"...without self-referential beings who can believe that God is "with them"?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2009 2:28:46 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 4/12/2009 3:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: The created, self-referential beings who can say "God is with us" ARE personally other than God, Tom. That's how they can say "God is with US"...

T: Precisely.

Just keeping an eye on you. ;o)

Christ is risen!

Tom
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Tom
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   Posted 4/13/2009 2:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, Gregory of Nyssa (GN) rocks so far. I like the way he thinks. Greg should definitely read these guys for himself. For example, Greg's theodicy claim about Satan originally (and still to some extent) being in charge/administration of the creation order is straight up GN who makes the same claim.

Hmmmm.

T
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Similitude
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   Posted 4/13/2009 6:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: By the way, Gregory of Nyssa (GN) rocks so far. I like the way he thinks. Greg should definitely read these guys for himself. For example, Greg's theodicy claim about Satan originally (and still to some extent) being in charge/administration of the creation order is straight up GN who makes the same claim.

Jeff: Bruce, is there an EO perspective about the Fall and theodicy implications of it? And would it be similar to Greg's and GN's view?


 

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Tom
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   Posted 4/13/2009 12:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Jeff. I'll try to find the passages in GN, but I've been racing through his books 'against Eunomius' (which I think you'd find fascinating--SO MUCH interesting ontology). It's as if he's been reading this discussion board for the past few years. Truly--nuttin' new under the sun. But anyhow, the passages (and it has some commentary by the translators/editors) describe GN's similarity to Origen on this point, and that is that creation's embodiment (the creation of the material world) is PART of what the Fall 'is'. The rise of evil was inevitable given finite, embodied free choice. So human beings were not created 'perfect'. Perfection is something we have to become. But neither were we created evil per se. We were "adequate," what we needed to be to become what God wanted. But this made sin and evil pretty much inevitable. That's the feeling I'm getting from GN.

T
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/13/2009 12:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've got most/all of GN's stuff (about 1,000) pages on a single pdf file (4 MB). Want it?

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/13/2009 12:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Similtude said...
Tom: By the way, Gregory of Nyssa (GN) rocks so far. I like the way he thinks. Greg should definitely read these guys for himself. For example, Greg's theodicy claim about Satan originally (and still to some extent) being in charge/administration of the creation order is straight up GN who makes the same claim.

Jeff: Bruce, is there an EO perspective about the Fall and theodicy implications of it? And would it be similar to Greg's and GN's view?

Definitely get THIS BOOK!
 
 

The mystery of Christ: Life in Death

 By John Behr
 
And read chapter ONE online for FREE, in total.  reading reading reading reading reading


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/13/2009 12:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, you got it?

D, you gett'n it?

JEFF......you let me know too, all right?


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