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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/13/2009 12:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
So human beings were not created 'perfect'. Perfection is something we have to become. But neither were we created evil per se. We were "adequate," what we needed to be to become what God wanted. But this made sin and evil pretty much inevitable. That's the feeling I'm getting from GN.

T
 
Behr: (pg. 82)
 
...adam and eve are not represented in genesis as being immortal beings who by sin fell into mortality, but as mortal beings who had the chance of attaining immortality, yet by that very act failed.
 
Irenaeus of lyons:  since he who saves already existed, it was necessary that he who would be saved should come into existence, that the ONE who saves should not exist in vain
 


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Tom
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   Posted 4/13/2009 1:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Still can’t find that passage in GN about Satan being the administrator of creation. But in the meantime, here’s something very interesting:

 

With regard, then, to this created Spirit-world we find that Gregory, as Basil, teaches that it existed, i.e. it had been created, before the work of the Six Days began. ‘God made all that is, at once’ (ἀθρόως). This is only his translation of the verse, ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth;’ the material for ‘heaven’ and ‘earth,’ i.e. spirits and chaos, was made in a moment, but God had not yet spoken the successive words of creation. The souls of men, then, existed from the very beginning of creation, and in a determinate number; for this is a necessary consequence of the ‘simultaneous creation.’ This was the case with the Angels too, the other portion of the created Spirit-world. Gregory has treated the subject of the Angels very fully. He considers that they are perfect: but their perfection too is contingent: it depends on the grace of God and their own wills; the angels are free, and therefore changeable. Their will necessarily moves towards something: at their first creation the Beautiful alone solicited them. Man ‘a little lower than the Angels’ was perfect too; deathless, passionless, contemplative. ‘The true and perfect soul is single in its nature, intellectual, immaterial16.’ He was ‘as the Angels’ and if he fell, Lucifer fell too. Gregory will not say, as Origen did, that human souls had a body when first created: rather, as we have seen, he implies the contrary; and he came to be considered the champion that fought the doctrine of the pre-existence of embodied souls. He seems to have been influenced by Methodius’ objections to Origen’s view. But his magnificent idea of the first man gives way at once to something more Scriptural and at the same time more scientific; and his ideal becomes a downright forecast

of Realism.

 

Interesting, eh? All the souls of human beings were created—poof—at one and the same time, “at once.” His only difference from Origen is that he does not view the souls created in the beginning as embodied (in the sense Origen did) and he views them as all created "in the beginning" (unlike Origen who viewed them as eternally pre-existent). Don’t think I’ll buy into EITHER view.

 

T

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/13/2009 1:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
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Tom
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   Posted 4/13/2009 1:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't have a problem with that part, B (i.e., our being created mortal). Though I'm not sure Paul believed it. It sure seems that for Paul physical death "entered through sin," which only makes sense if we were not mortal prior to falling into sin. Very difficult to fit Paul into this. I suppose we could, with D, just say Paul's theology in Romans was wrong on this point. ;o)

T
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/13/2009 6:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Behr's third chapter, "For this were we created" is very good.

I think you will find there a third option, Tom.

I don't remember: do you have Behr's book?

Bruce

Tom said...
I don't have a problem with that part, B (i.e., our being created mortal). Though I'm not sure Paul believed it. It sure seems that for Paul physical death "entered through sin," which only makes sense if we were not mortal prior to falling into sin. Very difficult to fit Paul into this. I suppose we could, with D, just say Paul's theology in Romans was wrong on this point. ;o)

T



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Similitude
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   Posted 4/13/2009 8:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Covered up for a couple of days. I'll try to catch up Wednesday. : )


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 4/15/2009 4:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: Truly--nuttin' new under the sun.

Jeff: I find that to be the amazing thing. I've thought of things over the years that I'd never heard of only to find out later that some ancients thought the same thing. Shouldn't be surprising actually. We're made in the image of God and there aren't that many possibilities thinkable to the human mind. Email me the pdf when you get time. I also wanna read that free chapter Bruce mentioned when I get time.


 

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