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Tom
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   Posted 8/10/2009 9:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

A DISCUSSION OF ALAN’S FORTHCOMING ARTICLE

 

http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/Gratuitous%20Evil%20and%20Divine%20Providence.pdf

 

Let me post a bit from the article just to show where Alan (Red text) is going with it:

 

The ABSTRACT:

 

ABSTRACT: Discussions of the evidential argument from evil generally pay little attention to how different models of divine providence constrain the theist’s options for response. After describing four models of providence and general theistic strategies for engaging the evidential argument, I articulate and defend a definition of ‘gratuitous evil’ that renders the theological premise of the argument uncontroversial for theists. This forces theists to focus their fire on the evidential premise, enabling us to compare models of providence with respect to how plausibly they can resist it. I then assess the four models, concluding that theists are better off vis-à-vis the evidential argument if they reject meticulous providence.

 

Tom: Then from the INTRO:

 

Interest in the notion of pointless or gratuitous evil stems from its role in the evidential argument from evil:

 

(1) Gratuitous evils occur.

(2) If God exists then no gratuitous evils occur.

Therefore,

(3) God does not exist.

 

Tom: The argument is formally valid. It can be false only if (1) or (2) (or both) is false. Alan argues that (2) is true and that (1) is false. Not all theists take this route, however. Some argue that (1) is true and (2) is false. Part of Alan’s argument is to offer reasons why it’s best for theists to agree on a definition of ‘gratuitous evil’ that would get them all agreeing that no such evil occurs, thus all agreeing that (2) is true (IF such evil occurred, God couldn’t exist, but…) and (1) is false (…no such evils occur, or can occur).

 

The argument’s soundness therefore hinges on the truth of the premises, and thus on the notion of gratuitous evil. (1) is the evidential premise, giving the argument its name. It is usually claimed by proponents that support for (1) is to be had simply by looking around. When we do, we allegedly find instances of evil, or a distribution of evils, which God would not be justified in permitting. (2) is the theological premise. It is supposed to follow a priori from God’s perfect goodness that he wouldn’t do anything without adequate justifying reasons and so wouldn’t permit gratuitous evil.

 

To a first approximation, then, we can say that gratuitous evils are evils that God would have no adequate justifying reason for permitting. But if we are properly to assess the theist’s prospects for rebutting the evidential argument, we need to be more explicit about the conditions under which there would be no adequate God-justifying reasons. What we want, I suggest, is a definition of ‘gratuitous evil’ that makes the theological premise uncontroversial for theists and, subject to that constraint, renders the evidential premise as initially plausible as possible. By securing (2), we force theists to focus their fire on (1).

 

Then from the opening paragraph of METHODOLOGICAL REFLECTIONS

 

I undertake below to develop and defend a definition of gratuitous evil designed to render the theological premise (2) of the evidential argument uncontroversial for proponents of all four models. Given (2) and the validity of the argument, theists can only resist it by attacking (1), the claim that gratuitous evils occur.

 

Alan’s definition of gratuitous evil (worked out carefully, which we can talk about):

 

(9) A gratuitous evil = A token or type of evil which God antecedently knew he could have prevented in a way that would have made the world overall better.

 

In the light of (9), the theological premise becomes

 

(2*) If God exists then there occur no tokens or types of evil which God antecedently knew he could have prevented in a way that would have made the world overall better.

 

Tom: It’ll be clear later that what Alan means by “could have prevented” does not include all or even most evils. Some natural evils may be necessary in a soul-making sort of way (Peterson). The possibility of at least some other moral evils is entailed in factors (the necessity of free-will and an appropriate context for creaturely becoming) that are necessary to an overall better world, so that God’s not preventing them doesn’t qualify them as ‘gratuitous’ under his definition. All these can, arguably, be evils God cannot prevent unilaterally and in so doing instantiate an overall better world.

 

I submit that (2*) should be uncontroversially true for theists on account of God’s perfect goodness. If God can prevent evils (tokens or types) in a way that would make the world overall better, and if God knows he can prevent those evils in such a manner, then it is hard to see what could justify God’s permitting them.  If this is right, then it is incumbent upon theists to resist the evidential premise by denying that we have any good reason to affirm

 

(1*) There occur tokens or types of evil which God antecedently knew he could have prevented in a way that would have made the world overall better.

 

---------------------------------

 

Basically, Alan wants to define gratuitous evil in such a way that (a) all four models of providence he names can agree to it, and (b) no such evils ever occur, so that premise (1) of the evidential argument above is untrue and the argument fails.

 

It’s important to recognize that by gratuitous evil Alan does not mean an evil which is preventable simpliciter by someone or other. His definition is quite narrow. For example, (2*) leaves room for Peterson’s Soul-Making theodicy, in which some natural evil can justifiably be permitted by God for the development of virtue. Though God CAN prevent such natural evil in the sense that God’s got the muscle to do so, God cannot prevent all such evil in a way that would make the world an overall better place, for natural evil is, arguably, useful for the development of an overall better world. Such evil then isn’t strictly speaking ‘gratuitious’.

 

Alan also brings up the distinction between type-gratuity and token-gratuity which I thought was really helpful.

 

(2*) also leaves room for the sort of ‘moral motivation’ that Hasker argues is necessary for creatures to play their role in learning to administrate the cosmos and be a fit partner for God, and that partnerships is a better overall world than one in which we are not such partners with God. If God were to prevent all evil and not leave some evil for creatures to prevent, they could not develop responsibly into the sort of partners God wants, so God has justifiable reasons for not preventing all evils, that prevention sometimes being dependent upon human beings.

 

I have to reread the article another time, but it doesn’t seem that Alan says anything about what I think is a main reason why God cannot prevent all moral evil, namely, the integrity of the freedom necessary for us to choose love. Presuming the chief reason we exist is to pleasure God by freely loving him and others, it seems to follow that the freedom necessary to this end must have an integrity to it for God as well as for us. If God were to prevent our misuse of freedom EVERY time we intend some misuse it, one could conclude there’s little real integrity to the whole project. If God only doesn’t interfere when we do rightly with our freedom, then did he REALLY give us freedom to begin with? I think not. So, God’s allowing us to inherit the consequences of choosing wrongly is an overall better sort of world than is his allowing every loving use of freedom and preventing every misuse of freedom. This is different than Hasker's moral-motivation argument.

 

But Alan’s point is: (2*) only applies to evils which God has NO justifiable reason for permitting and those reasons extending to a host of concerns (Peterson’s soul-making theodicy, Hasker’s concerns, and even mine).

 

------------------------------

 

If this is how gratuitous evil is defined, then I agree of course. Like Alan says, what theist would disagree?

 

This is essentially the same principle I’ve argued here (and back on the Carlie thread years ago): God does all God can do given the creational constraints he has to work within, to maximize good and minimize evil. Alan’s point is that those constraints RULE OUT some sorts of evils (his ‘gratuitous’ evils) because God uniformly prevents them. They can never exist. But those constraints permit or allow for the possibility of other sorts of evils (natural evils, evils the follow from the use of angelic and human free-will).

 

[RIGHT HERE there’s a big question about what sorts of conceivable evils WOULD qualify under Alan’s definition of ‘gratuitous’. Can he describe one? What sort of sin are we talking about? Do they never happen because they’re definitionally impossible or because they’re possible but just uniformly prevented by God? In other words, are there even any members in the set of ‘Possible Gratuitous Evils’? Alan will have to say the set is EMPTY, for the existence of even one such possible evil would constitute a possible world in which Alan agrees God would not exist, and Alan agrees God exists necessarily (in all possible worlds). Thus, on Alan’s definition, there is no such thing as a ‘possible gratuitous evil’. For it to be possible, some ‘actuality’ would have to be its ground, right? What actuality would that be? So ‘gratuitous evil’ is only as conceivable as is God’s non-existence (for Alan).]

 

In other words, AFTER all the soul-making and free-will and other creational constraints upon the exercise of divine power are factored in, THEN Alan says an all-benevolent God would prevent all evils unilaterally. I think that goes without saying. But in actuality there’s no REAL preventing going on. There are no ‘possible’ or ‘instantiable’ gratuitous evils whose prevent requires some ‘providential action’ on God’s part.

 

Given Alan’s definition then, if there are any evils which are uniformily prevented by God via some providential act, they cannot be ‘possible gratuitous’ evils.

 

Do we want to do that? Do we want to define away  ‘gratuitous evil’ into the realm of ‘necessarily not possible’? Isn’t the evidential argument as much about whether God is justified in allowing all the OTHER types of evil Alan grants are not gratuitous? I’m just thinking out loud here.

 

What if we define gratuitous evil as = any instance of evil actualized in spite of all attempts—divine, angelic, and human—to prevent it?

 

In other words, define ‘gratuity’ inclusive of all relevant factors. Alan seems to define it exclusive of all non-God factors. That’s why there’s no gratuitous evil for him but there is for me. An evil which (on Hasker’s view, say) was ultilitarianly left by God up to humans to prevent (for justifiable reasons) but which humans failed to prevent is gratuitous given what humans could have done. For Alan, it was non-gratuitous because God could not prevent it unilaterally given all the relevant factors. I don’t see why gratuity should exclude agents other than God though. Most people intuit the gratuity of at least SOME evils and they include all factors into the scope of things God “could have done.” I’d like to articulate my way through that intuition and not around it (so to speak)

 

In other words, argue that God has justifiable reasons to make the prevention of some evils dependent upon wills other than his own. We have to do that anyhow, whether we adopt Alan’s definition or not, right? Alan takes these evils into consideration too. He just uses them to exclude a class of evils from his definition of ‘gratuitous’ evil. But surely those who employing the evidential argument mean to INCLUDE such evils within the scope of discussion, i.e., they’d want to know whether God has justifiable reasons for making the successful prevention of evil sometimes dependent upon angelic and/or human agents. That seems to be where the argument is. And to say reply that APART from these evils God DOES do just what the proponents of the evidential argument claim God ought to do--namely, unilaterally prevent evil--seems to begg the question. No?

 

Alan sees this, but wants to address it OUTSIDE the question of ‘gratuitous’ evil. I prefer to address it as part of the issue, partly because (a) evidential argument proponents do so, and partly because (b) I fear that if ‘gratuitous’ evil is said to be impossible and non-existent, less than careful believers will lazily assume that any given instance of evil is already the result of all that possibly could have been done to prevent it and so tend to assume that includes them, and thus never question whether a particular evil is in fact gratuitous given what they could have done. This failure to include ourselves within the explanation of what good might have been isn’t Alan’s intention of course, but I fear it could follow if people are told that there are no gratuitous evils. When some hear “gratuitous evil can evil occur” they think “Oh, well, all evils serve some specific purpose or higher good,” and I’m assuming that’s NOT what Alan wants to say. So there may be a deeper point to Hasker’s concern about motivation which even Hasker doesn’t make explicit and which Alan didn’t address.

 

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 8/11/2009 3:14:00 AM (GMT-5)

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Sahid
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   Posted 8/10/2009 12:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Haven't read the paper yet. I will. But going by the above post...

Alan's definition is fine insofar as we realize he has limited it to God. The term need not be so limited.

God's existence is necessary and he could not have prevented evil to make the world any better, therefore there can exist no such thing as gratuitous evil. But wait, how about not creating at all? That would prevent evil, but would it make the world better? Would it be better that all creation not be born? Presumably not. Otherwise that would be a possible world where things were better and this would be a world full of gratuitous evil. So Alan's understanding of divine necessity and gratuitous evil limits the range of God's possible workings down to one: the one we've got. Or to be more precise, the range might still be full of different possibilities, but when each detail of each possible world is taken into account they all contain precisely the same amount of aggregate goodness (assuming such measures that compare overall better-ness of worlds are something more than nonsense).

Sure, this defends the theist logically, but we can imagine that the one making the evidential argument will remain unsatisfied. He says, "Look at all this evil; how can you believe that a perfectly good, all-power God exists?" Our response: "The God I believe in exists necessarily, meaning that even an all-powerful God could not have done things any better." The comeback might look something like this: "So why believe in the first place? If your God can't save one more life without making the overall world somehow worse [a fairly difficult claim to back up], then why bother thinking about him? And it's not even that he's 'doing all he can,' it's simply that his necessity precludes him from doing anything at all! Look! I, a contingent being, can make the world better than it would otherwise be; I can prevent gratuitous evil which can't even be conceived of from your necessary God's perspective. I'm more powerful than your necessary God!"

If we apply Alan's definition to ourselves, contingent beings, then it is a set containing elements and it is revealed that we have moral choices to make: we can do good or evil. Can the same be said of a necessary God? Can a necessary God be free to do good or evil? No. Any 'goodness' done by the necessary God is not done out of freedom. God has to be this way. There is presumably no possible world where he acts otherwise (why claim such a thing?). But the ability to act otherwise IS freedom.

Tom: "If God were to prevent our misuse of freedom EVERY time we intend some misuse it, one could conclude there’s little real integrity to the whole project. God only doesn’t interfere when we do rightly? Well, did he REALLY give us freedom to begin with? I think not."

Likewise, If necessity were to prevent God's misuse of freedom every time he intended some misuse (or even to prevent such intention), one could conclude there's little integrity to the idea that God is freely good.

So we see that the evidential argument does not persuade Alan, not because there are no gratuitous evils nor because gratuitous evil is a logical contradiction, but because the necessary God is an unfree, amoral being to whom the qualifications of 'freely good' and 'freely evil' cannot apply.

Post Edited (Sahid) : 8/10/2009 12:23:55 PM (GMT-5)

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Sahid
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   Posted 8/10/2009 6:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1. God exists necessarily = God exists in all possible worlds.

2. Gratuitous evil is evil which God could see ahead of time and could have prevented with an overall good result.

3. If God exists, then gratuitous evil does not exist. Or, if gratuitous evil exists, then God does not exist.

4. By 2, if God were to intend evil (not as a means to a good end, but just intend evil), gratuitous evil would exist.

5. By 3 and 4, God cannot intend evil.

6. By 5, when faced with what would for us be a choice between good and evil, God has no ability to choose evil, and consequently, he can only choose good.

Since, 7. a libertarianly free choice is one between at least two different options,

8. God does not possess libertarian freedom when it comes to matters of moral importance.

9. God is not freely morally good (or evil); he lacks free moral status.
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Tom
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   Posted 8/11/2009 2:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I’ve argued that because Alan affirms (2) (viz., that if God exists gratuitous evil cannot occur), then this means the set of ‘possible gratuitous evils’ is empty. I then said that if this is the case, there such evil is precluded by God’s very existence and not by any providential acts God has to pursue. But I’m rethinking this. The reason I’m rethinking it is because I can’t imagine gratuitous evils being gratuitous on account of some ‘intrinsic’ property. They’re gratuitous because given the purposes of God at a particular time and place, preventing them unilaterally undermines none of the other factors God has to honor in order to maximize good and minimize evil. But it doesn’t follow that the same act in another time and place would take on a contextual shape that would relate it differently to the same purposes and render it non-gratuitous, in which case God could not unilaterally prevent it. My point is, gratuity isn’t an intrinsic property, it’s an extrinsic property. The same ‘act’ may be gratuitous now right here but non-gratuitous then and over there. Of course, the difference means it’s also not ‘exactly’ the same act, but you get my point. Apart from context, it’s the same act. It’s hard to say what gratuitous evils look like if we argue they never occur. My point is, all the evils we do see might, in different circumstances, be gratuitous if all the inter-relating purposes and trajectories render it so.

 

So is Alan’s definition if gratuitous evil just my old rule that “God always does all God can do, given his purposes and all the relevant creational factors, to maximize good and minimize evil”? I stated mine rule more generally to cover as many bases as possible. Alan seems to have narrowed it down to say that ‘miminizing’ actually is total (and so equals ‘preventing’) where God can prevent some evil unilaterally given all the creational constraints in place which make for an overall better world.

 

Alan?

 

The problem I see is that if we say God does in certain circumstances unilaterally prevent evil, haven’t we just restated the same problem? An objector will just ask, “What kind of circumstances?” and we’re back to justifying a particular providence and what would justifying risking evil at all . I guess I’m asking Alan, what’s the real advantage to conceding (2) and arguing against (1) (of the evidential argument) over conceding (1) and arguing against (2)? Depending on how you slice ‘gratuity’ (as inclusive or exclusive of all moral agents), the same reasoning (justifying risk for love’s sake, the necessity of love to freedom, etc.) all comes back into play.

 

Tom

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Alan Rhoda
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   Posted 8/11/2009 11:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
The problem I see is that if we say God does in certain circumstances unilaterally prevent evil, haven’t we just restated the same problem? An objector will just ask, “What kind of circumstances?” and we’re back to justifying a particular providence and what would justifying risking evil at all . I guess I’m asking Alan, what’s the real advantage to conceding (2) and arguing against (1) (of the evidential argument) over conceding (1) and arguing against (2)? Depending on how you slice ‘gratuity’ (as inclusive or exclusive of all moral agents), the same reasoning (justifying risk for love’s sake, the necessity of love to freedom, etc.) all comes back into play.

Hi Tom,

Keep in mind that my defining 'gratuitous evil' as I do is motivated by a specific dialectical goal: To render the theological premise (2) uncontroversial for theists, forcing them to focus on (1), so that we can compare competing models of divine providence on a level playing field, so to speak. Those with different dialectical objectives may have reason for defining 'gratuitous evil' differently, which may open up room for criticizing (2) and not just (1).

So, you're right that how we define 'gratuitous evil' doesn't resolve any of the issues related to the problem of evil. For me it's a device for simplifying the bookkeeping. Rather than having to worry about two premises, I only have to worry about one. Hence I only have to worry about the three possible theistic strategies for resisting (1), namely, theodicy, epistemic modesty, and counterbalancing. As I argue, different models of providence seem to force different trade-offs among those strategies.
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Sahid
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   Posted 8/11/2009 11:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think Alan's view takes the trump card out of the hand of the non-believer with regards to the evidential argument. Take the believer's definition of God and the non-believer's definition of gratuitous evil, and hopefully we can show that the charge laid against God of gratuitous evil cannot be proven. However, the down side is that it defends God in a way that makes God neither a hero nor a villain but just a bystander. What we need is not evidence of God's neutrality but instead evidence of God's gratuitous goodness! Otherwise why bother with belief? But I don't see how the necessary God can be convicted of gratuitous anything.

God's omnipotence and benevolence dictates that the world we live in is the one God did his best work in compared to all possible worlds (or that it is at least in a first place tie). Adding divine necessity makes this world (or the others in this first place tie) the only possible world. So we are left saying not only "God could not have done any better," but we must also say "God could not have done any worse," which is to say divine gratuitous goodness is an impossibility! This denies that his benevolence libertarianly chosen. This leaves room for God to be holy and pure, but it leaves no room for a very important part of personality: moral capacity.

There are many different views on what makes a person, but frequently moral capacity is named as a component. So at the least, this brings into question the idea that God can be both personal (not to mention Trinity/community) and necessary. But more than question, it flat out denies that human persons created with moral capacity were in this respect created in God's image.

The necessary God would 'care' for us but in the same way as a brainwashed or hypnotized man might: without having any control of what he is doing. Drop divine necessity (which I see no reason to hold in the first place), and these problems are gone. He is not bound to his praiseworthy qualities by the force of his nature, but he freely wants to be who he is and who he is to us. We can praise God for loving kindness and mean by that to include his freely chosen love i.e. we can talk about election in a meaningful way. We can praise his goodness even more knowing that rather than being impervious to temptation he endured it just as we have and still chose to be good.
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Similitude
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   Posted 8/11/2009 5:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, I think this statement by Alan is to the point: "As I argue, different models of providence seem to force different trade-offs among those strategies."

I think this is what I was meaning by "A-Plausible" aspects. There is no view that doesn't have to posit something NON-evident simply to render the view coherent. But I think there are aspects in historical paradigms that simply ARE A-Plausible. So if tweaking those in one way or another gets us somewhere (as I think the earth expansion view does), then I see no point in positing OTHER A-Plausible claims that are unnecessary once the resultant history renders them unnecessary. This is exactly what I see the earth expansion view doing. IMO, it MINIMIZES the number of A-Plausible claims we have to posit, because it necessitates A-Plausible claims PRECISELY where ALL other views have to do so, anyway.

As for a-plausibility, there is no way we will ever be able to explain how ALL natural evil is necessary for human becoming. This was what Greg was trying to get around in SATPOE. We can posit it, but we can't really see WHY that is.

Let me try a new take on "gratuitous evil."

Gratuitous evil is suffering that results from "natural evil" (suffering from moral evil is much easier to explain) that is unnecessary for or adverse to human becoming or some other divine end of creation and THEREFORE causes God unnecessary suffering since He is sympathetic (God wouldn't design an order that INEVITABLY caused Himself gratuitous suffering unless He was just incompetent to do otherwise). The goal, of course, is to say that natural evil IS necessary in some sense, so as to say, with Alan, that there is NO gratuitous evil. We just explain why that is differently. And frankly, I think we are accounting for the only 2 conceivable ways to do it. There can be differences in the details in those 2 broad views (as in Greg's angelic DNA modification view vs. my view, though we are both trying to account for "natural evil" in terms of volition, ultimately), but I can't think of any other GENERAL way to eliminate gratuitous evil other than the 2 broad ways we attempt to do so.


So, then, what I'm calling gratuitous evil is not the same thing as what Paul calls "vanity" in Rom. 8. I'm thinking, then, that vain "groanings" and "travailings" are vain in the sense that they weren't ORIGINALLY necessary for God to attain His ends. Because of the Fall, IOW, they ARE necessary, though they are vain in the sense that, unlike pre-Fall sufferings, they provide no educational value as to what NOT to do. E.g., if I'm negligent and fall down, I experience suffering that tells me what NOT to do next time. This is true independent of the Fall. Pain in child birth doesn't tell us what NOT to do. E.g., it doesn't tell us we aren't supposed to reproduce.


 

Post Edited (Similtude) : 8/11/2009 7:53:52 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 8/12/2009 12:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Alan, so your point wasn't to engage proponents of the evidential argument, it was just to get theists to agree on a definition of gratuitous evil to see how the differ in other respects?

Tom
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Tom
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   Posted 8/12/2009 12:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll have to reread it again, Alan. I'm confused. It you get theists (of the four models you mention) to all agree on what gratuitous evil is and thus to agree that (2) is true, then what's left to say but that (1) is false? (1) just states "there is gratuitous evil." If you're a theist who agrees to the formal validity of the argument and you agree that (2) is true, then you agree (1) if false. There is no gratuitous evil, no can there be. So what is it we're focusing on with respect to (1) again? We're comparing models of divine providence?

Time for a 4th reading!

Tom
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Similitude
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   Posted 8/12/2009 11:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Since I see the benevolence and competence of God as a corrolary of competent, human inference, to me, theodicy is just like science. Scientists believe apriori that the universe is analogical and, therefore, that induction is a way of explaining things more and more analogically/parsimoniously. Similarly, many of us theists aren't questioning WHETHER God is benevolent or competent, but rather HOW we can account for a theodicy with the least number of a-plausible claims. In a sense, specific religions are just specific theodicies. And as I see it, the only way we can do comparative religions in a rational way is to see which produces the most plausible, coherent theodicy. Beyond that, we're dealing with private revelation that can't be "seen" by others to be coherent/plausible in a discursive way.


 

Post Edited (Similtude) : 8/12/2009 8:54:09 PM (GMT-5)

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