Post Edited (Tom) : 11/11/2009 2:16:01 PM (GMT-6)

Hi there,

Thanks for trying Starkman. Problem is I've already eaten that food....and I'm full. If my Mdiv was good for anything it was good at teaching me that the bible isn't saying what it's saying....at least not literally. I get that. And I actually always have. Especially when it comes to this genre. The problem I'm having here is that hell (eternal seperation from God) seems to be a CENTRAL theme throughout scripture. From "I have set before you life and death....choose life" to the sheep and goats to the Matthew 10 verse to the guy in hell in Luke to Rev. 20:10 and many many other verses in between. If there is such a thing as UR, I dont see it. Every time I read an argument for it (such as the one Tom posted), it's quite a stretch.

I believe in character solidification because the bible suggests it (see verse from James below, for example) and we see a little of it here on earth. If I set out to become a loving person, I can start by doing loving things and developing beliefs about love. The more I do loving things and exercise those beliefs, the more of a loving person I become. If I learn to do loving things and exercise those beliefs every moment... talk to me in 5 years! My brain will be formed and reformed and I will BE a loving person.

James 1:2&12
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. ..... 12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him (as opposed to who? Doesn'teveryone get the crown of life??)

Oh brother! The prayer was joke to make a point. You don’t think people have prayed about this stuff? D doesn’t think folks have prayed sincerely and humbly to God for the Spirit to reveal the truth about these questions? Of course people have sought God sincerely on this stuff. And of course it has turned out AFTER PRAYER that one will sense the Spirit directing them to believe one thing and one will decide the other. THAT is part of the problem (for us).

I do pray about this stuff. I talk to God and pour my heart out every single day because I do want the truth of these things to direct me.

So Tom believes theology is best done in his head?

Dang. Body slam. Ouch.

I only hope God gives you a chance to really see what’s in my heart.

Obviously the head is important. But the heart is equally important to me. We’re ONE thinking, feeling, intuiting, spiritually-sensing sort of thing.

But let me say something about God’s pleasuring hiding the simple truth from the “wise and learned.” That’s not a condemnation of the intellect or of good study or even scholarship. Paul said, “study to show yourself approved,” not “despise learning and follow your heart.” You must feel you have to choose between your head and your heart. I honestly don’t think we have to do that. And I don’t think that’s at all what Jesus or the New Testament is talking about when it describes God’s intent to hide the truth from the “learned or wise.” Cf. 1Co. 1 and 2. But that’s another discussion.

Selah: Ok everyone, think to yourselves "WHAT is behind Tom's statement here?" and "What are his presuppositions?" I give you some hints. 1. God's not going to answer you if you ask him directly. He's personal, but not THAT personal. 2. 2. Theology is BEST done in the head.... even though JESUS praised his father for REVEALING things to the little children who couldn't possibly DO theology in their heads…

Tom: No! Ha! Oh brother. I’d never suggest that we remove our hearts from doing theology, or that the Spirit doesn’t lead us into all truth (at least the truth he thinks we really need to know). All I’m saying is that there are people who agree with you (and I’m one of them), who DO pray and DO think God is that personal and DO ask the Spirit to show them what to believe and end up hearing the Spirit tell them to believe different things. That’s the problem. Despising the head and promoting the heart just relocates the problem, Selah, for people who THINK differently also end up HEARTING differently. Moving it to the heart is not guarantee that all will go well.

Selah: Tom STILL believes Theology is BEST done in his head. Even though Jesus says it's his Father's "good pleasure" to HIDE things from the wise/smart ones .... Tom STILL believes theology is best done in his head.

Tom: I actually think the theology is best done with one entire life—mind, heart, emotions, volition, all of it. Until then we’re not REALLY theologians.

Selah: Regarding the "we can study and make our own interpretation" post... lemme ask this: why wouldn't we take all of the translations available and do our best to find the COMMON denominator rather than finding something new to read into the text?

Tom: If we did that across the board, Selah, we’d have to conclude that open theism is wrong. Come on. Basing our beliefs on what’s most commonly believed? Saying that the correct reading of a Greek text is the whatever most translators think it is? Just count them and the majority will be the right one?

Selah: That's my problem right there. It doesnt' make sense because so much of that work has already been done!!! Groups of theologians have spent years fighting it out over roundtables! I don’t think my mind is better than their collective minds.

Tom: Well, that shouldn’t matter to you should it? You don’t think “mind” is important. You ONLY want to employ your HEART in deciding what’s true. So why quantify over translators anyhow. None of those guys use their HEARTS when the translated. They used the HEADS, the most unreliable thing in the universe and the one thing you’re sure God enjoys hiding his truth from. So why should you think ANY translation is ANYWHERE near the truth. By your reasoning the most common translation is more likely to be wrong because it’s most likely to reflect the blind heartless intellectual ramblings of the human MIND.

Selah: With all that you know about theologians today (basically getting paid to come up with a new argument/idea so that they can be published!) do you reallly TRUST those motives enough to believe something you don’t see in Scripture?

Tom: But Sistaaa, I DOOOOO see it in Scripture. That’s the problem. And I see it there MORE (not less) the MORE I PRAY and become like a little child. But you won’t let me see it in Scripture because you insist that the truth has to be what’s MOST COMMONLY believed to be the truth. Well, why are you an open theist? That belief dudn’t figure in anywhere in the common denominator range of what’s believed (or been believed) by believers. Or does the common denominator way of deciding what you believe only apply to translations of Scritpure and not interpretations of Scripture? Oh really?

Selah: Let’s get together for that dance. You get GB and D to come and I'll wear a jazzy dress! Can't wait.... I'll even bring Jesus!

Tom: Jesus will be riding with ME most definitely. Yo. I’ve already PRAYED about it and got an answer. And we each get to dance with you. I intend on being ROUGH and throwing you around quite a bit!

Tom

"Hey, you guys get to judge the angels with me. What do you desire happens to the fallen?  Whatever you desire to happen will be what happens.  Let's start with Satan..."

How would we answer and why.

Like I said...interesting thought project.

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/12/2009 12:01:11 PM (GMT-6)

I think y'all can tease out my chief assumptions/presuppositions.

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/12/2009 12:10:09 PM (GMT-6)

We're not disagreeing...

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/12/2009 12:30:16 PM (GMT-6)

Would anyone argue otherwise?