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One Love
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| Posted 11/15/2009 6:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom,
So Greg's idea of treating one's own sin like a 2 X 4 in the eye and ANY OTHER PERSON'S sin as a speck of sawdust...is fundamentally flawed?
OR...
Is it an exaggeration of sorts for the purpose of positive effect?
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You... Post Edited (One Love) : 11/15/2009 5:53:54 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/15/2009 6:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I hear you saying NONE of these really even exists, and if they did exist, in order to really experience God I HAVE to believe that they exist in me on a degree of intensity and scale of misrelation greater than they do in Satan. That's ridiculous man. Come on.
I would say that our concern about our own sin should dramatically eclipse the concerns of any other person's sins...including Satan. In other words, via the Holy Spirit's conviction, the "degree of intensity and scale of misrelation" within oneself is ENOUGH of a job to concern oneself about...than to judge any one else than with the Grace one desires for oneself.
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
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Starkman
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| Posted 11/15/2009 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | I think of it as the publican who fell down before God (with the Pharisee) next to him and just begged for mercy. He couldn't have cared less if he was or was not as much of a sinner as the Pharisee next to him. It was futile in this guy's mind to go there. But from God's perspective was one more justified than the other? According to Jesus, yes. And if Jesus is watching this kind of stuff, then it's obviously important to Him.
Without Christ having died and resurrected, Jesus still claimed something different (standing before God) between the publican and Pharisee. In other words, let's not make this a "The publican was saved and the Pharisee wasn't" issue. Clearly, the publican had found better standing before God than the Pharisee. BUT neither the publican nor the Pharisee should have been giving any of this the slightest thought. There only concern should have been, O Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
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One Love
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| Posted 11/15/2009 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman:
I think of it as the publican who fell down before God (with the Pharisee) next to him and just begged for mercy. He couldn't have cared less if he was or was not as much of a sinner as the Pharisee next to him. It was futile in this guy's mind to go there. But from God's perspective was one more justified than the other? According to Jesus, yes. And if Jesus is watching this kind of stuff, then it's obviously important to Him.
Without Christ having died and resurrected, Jesus still claimed something different (standing before God) between the publican and Pharisee. In other words, let's not make this a "The publican was saved and the Pharisee wasn't" issue. Clearly, the publican had found better standing before God than the Pharisee. BUT neither the publican nor the Pharisee should have been giving any of this the slightest thought. There only concern should have been, O Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
100% Amen. Two things.
1) Perhaps the whole "see others' sins as 'less than' your own" perspective (and all extrapolations from that) is not as helpful as this one, especially for the sake of communication. It could be overexaggeration for the sake of effect. (Becoming 'least of all', etc)
2) I can't see the penitent publican wanting to judge anyone as worthy of damnation...but wanting graciousness and forgiveness for any sinners who need it...including himself.
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
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One Love
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| Posted 11/15/2009 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Then why are you saying that unless we compare ourselves to Satan and see ourselves are more evil than Satan the Spirit won't descend on us?
Bro, I had a laugh thinking something. If you were back in the time where Paul said that he is "the chief of sinners", you would say he was not being totally accurate on that, not being true to reality...right? You'd say...
"No, Paul. Actually there are humans who sin way, WAY more than you and could care less about God...and then there's Satan and the demons. So, technicnally, you're NOT the chief of sinners, like you say."
But I don't think he'd quarrel with you. I think he'd listen to you respectfully, lovingly embrace you and...say "God knows, my friend. God knows." and then just go on with that felt impression he had been having before God...and continue being justified by the same God that inspired him to speak/write that way in the first place.
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
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Tom
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| Posted 11/15/2009 11:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Stark: He couldn't have cared less if he was or was not as much of a sinner as the Pharisee next to him. It was futile in this guy's mind to go there.
D: 100% Amen.
T: Whooooah there D. I'm afriad you CAN'T agree with Stark. For you DO "go there." You think we MUST go there and make the necessary comparisons and conclude that we're THE MOST privated, evil being in all creation.
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T: Then why are you saying that unless we compare ourselves to Satan and see ourselves are more evil than Satan the Spirit won't descend on us?
D: If you were back in the time where Paul said that he is "the chief of sinners", you would say...
T: I wouldn't include Satan and demons in his description at all. I'm sure he didn't. Paul's only talking about human beings. And I could see a sense in which he was accurate, yes. Even he attempts to ground what he says objectively, by explaining "for I persecuted the Church of God." His point seems to be that as a Jew (with all those benefits and light and the closure of epistemic distance it should have afforded him), he ended up being the Osama bin Laden of the NT Church. His belief wasn't just subjective leap.
So I'd probably agree with him. But YOU would HAVE to disagree, because you'd insist, "No no, Paul. Iiiiiiii'mmmm the chiefest of sinners. Not you. And I need to be that so God will bless me" and then someone else with your thinking standing nearby would jump in, "No D, neither of YOU is the chiefest of sinners. Iiiiii'mmm the chiefest of sinners." For you, there has to be a fundamental disagreement between all truly blessed believers over WHO is really the worst most privated, evil being in creation. God can only send his Spirit upon those who disagree with one another and each view themselves as "the worst."
Oh brother.
Tom
"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas BerdyaevPost Edited (Tom) : 11/15/2009 11:10:32 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/16/2009 12:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
I think you are getting way too caught up in the trees and missing the forest...for real. If you don't like the exaggeration and you don't want to consider yourself the "chief of sinners", then don't. If you don't want to take the perspective of Elder Dionysius (The Means of Facilitating the Prayer) then don't. Just receive Grace how YOU do it, ok? Personally, I don't think that God will mind the lack of precision in the "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, THE sinner" concept...said from an humble heart. Obviously, it's an offence to some to articulate such a thing. Interesting.
And REGARDLESS TO ALL THIS...
Whether or not a person thinks of themselves as the "worst of the worst" sinner, if said person has enough focus upon their own standing before God (seeing one's sin as God sees it) and receiving God's Grace by giving love as it has been received from God, I cannot see said person advocating for an ABSENCE of divine grace and forgiveness in God's judgment others. I'd think such a person would advocate for the UNIVERSALITY of God's Love and Grace to all, given her OWN experience of God's saving grace.
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You... Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 5:20:16 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/16/2009 2:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm...I'm having a slow suspicion that there is a lack of consideration of the depth of ANY sin in it's offensiveness to divine reality. In short, we don't understand sin's real capacity to "separate" us from God. We make way, way, WAY too light of it. Sin turns the infinite "diaphora" between Creator and Created into infinite "diaresis". And whatever is not of faith (energized by love of God) is sin.
To say that Satan is any worse off than me, sin-wise...or that I'm any better than him, sin-wise is to miss the point that ANY sinful positioning of the person against God is simply "death". No gradations there. Does it matter who takes the most soul-arsenic of sin the fastest and/or most? Or is it that both are working death in their members?
Maybe that why Tom says...
Personally, I think the WHOLE idea that MY repenting requires ANY kind of comparison to other beings is a mistake. True, to say, "I'm a sinner BUT I ain't as..." is a mistake in context. What's the but clause for? It can only be self-justifying. The answer is to DROP all such clauses and comparisons (including the opposite mistake of pretending to believe the ridiculous notion that I really are MORE evil than Satan) and just repent of who and what we are before God. To add that I'm "not as evil as X" is to seek to ground our worth and value relative in some comparative state. But saying I'm "more evil than X" is the same mistake on the other other end of things.
The "drop" of the clauses and comparisons is BECAUSE there are no gradations. In other words, all have fallen short of the glory of God and no sinner is ultimately any better or worse off than any other without God's Grace.
PS: Old school...but still a favorite...
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You... Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 3:26:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/16/2009 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | |
D: I think you are getting way too caught up in the trees and missing the forest...for real.
T: Ha! Nah, Bro. Not this time. Honestly. I’m just about words and what they mean. I want to understand. You said that we ought to believe we are more evil than Satan so that the Father can give us his Spirit. It's your claim. That seems obviously false, as I understand it. On the one hand you said you agree (with Stark and me) that we ought only to compare ourselves with Jesus. Then on the other hand you keep insisting that each of us should believe we're more evil than Satan. Then on the one hand not, then on the other hand who knows?
The words “more evil than Satan” mean something. What do they mean to you? Forget other human sinners. Let’s just talk Satan, ‘cause he’s the one you said we should view ourselves as more evil than. What do you feel it is about you that makes you more private and evil in your misrelating and its effects (upon you, others, and the created order) than Satan? I really want to hear that.
D: If you don't like the exaggeration and you don't want to consider yourself the "chief of sinners", then don't.
T: If I thought I was the chiefest of sinners I'd have to disagree with Paul who said HE was the chiefest of sinners. But you said Paul spoke truthfully when he laid claim to the title. How can I disagree with Paul if believe Paul's right?
D: If you don't want to take the perspective of Elder Dionysius (The Means of Facilitating the Prayer) then don't. Just receive Grace how YOU do it, ok?
T: Aw, Bro. It’s not about that. It’s about what we MEAN when we SPEAK.
D: Personally, I don't think that God will mind the lack of precision in the “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, THE sinner” concept...said from a humble heart.
T: I pray it too. But that's not the issue.
D: Obviously, it’s an offense to some to articulate such a thing. Interesting.
T: Who do you think it offends? I mean, I don’t take offense in the prayer. I pray it. And it doesn’t offend me for you to believe you’re more evil than Satan. I just disagree that you’re more evil than Satan. I think believing that is beyond ridiculous and uncalled for. One cannot rationally believe it. No way. But it doesn’t offend me.
D: Whether or not a person thinks of themselves as the "worst of the worst" sinner, if said person has enough focus upon their own standing before God (seeing one's sin as God sees it) and receiving God's Grace by giving love as it has been received from God, I cannot see said person advocating for an ABSENCE of divine grace and forgiveness in God's judgment others. I'd think such a person would advocate for the UNIVERSALITY of God's Love and Grace to all, given her OWN experience of God's saving grace.
T: Absolutely. So then, why DO you think believing you’re more evil than Satan is important?
D: Hmmm...I'm having a slow suspicion that there is a lack of consideration of the depth of ANY sin in its offensiveness to divine reality. In short, we don't understand sin's real capacity to "separate" us from God.
T: I don’t doubt this Bro. Just because there are degrees of privation into evil doesn’t mean that the slightest degree of privation disrupts and breaks our fellowship with God. Misrelation is misrelation, period, even though it admits degrees.
D: To say that Satan is any worse off than me, sin-wise...or that I'm any better than him, sin-wise is to miss the point that ANY sinful positioning of the person against God is simply "death".
T: Right. I don’t think being more or less private has anything to do with ‘death as consequence’. Death is the same.
D: No gradations there. Does it matter who takes the most soul-arsenic of sin the fastest and/or most? Or is it that both are working death in their members?
T: On that score, right. I agree. So let me ask, WHY THEN do you think there’s a special gift of the Spirit for those who go beyond what you say here and add to it the notion that they’re “more evil than Satan”?
D: The “drop” of the clauses and comparisons is BECAUSE there are no gradations.
T: So you’re DISAGREEING with your earlier quote that God gives his Spirit to those who believe they’re more evil than Satan?
D: In other words, all have fallen short of the glory of God and no sinner is ultimately any better or worse off than any other without God’s Grace.
T: Right. No created being is more or less dependent upon God’s grace than any other. It’s 100% dependence. And no created being that’s spiritually dead is any MORE or LESS dead than any other being. BUT there are differences of natural capacities and scopes of influence and degrees of privation. Satan was endowed with greater capacities to influence more and is as privated and solidified in all of that as he possibly can be. In THAT SENSE he’s more evil than the rest of us. There’s no humility to be found in pretending the opposite is true.
Love ya,
Tom
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One Love
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| Posted 11/16/2009 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I just disagree that you’re more evil than Satan. I think believing that is beyond ridiculous and uncalled for. One cannot rationally believe it. No way. But it doesn’t offend me.
Elder Dionysis:
"Father, the greatest danger for each of us is when we judge others. Do you know why? When you judge your neighbor, and especially priests, your father confessor, or your elder, the first thing that will happen is that the bodily passions will fight you more than at other times. This is allowed by God because you did not pay attention to your own sins and judged others instead. But we should arm ourselves with the sharpest sword against the demons and their wiles, which is humble-mindedness. Thus, if you see a man committing a sin, say in your mind, “I’m much worse than he is.” But not only with your lips—you should be convinced that you really are worse than he is. Even if I didn’t commit that sin in deed, I did it by desire, by thought, or by agreeing to it. And I’m a monk (for a monk, a sin committed in thought is as severe as a sin committed in deed by a layman). Furthermore, we don’t have the right to judge anyone. Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us, Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matt. 7:1). Because if we judge, we’re proud and God will allow us to fall into great sins in order to humble us so we can see our sins. And if we humble ourselves, God will remove that passion and the warfare which comes upon us from the demons. Because humble-mindedness drives the devil away like fire. But we should be in a state of watchfulness and discernment in everything."
He's making a ridiculous claim, right? Or is there a POINT to all this?
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
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One Love
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| Posted 11/16/2009 6:30 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/16/2009 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | How about this?
I can see a possibility for a lack of humility with a person who makes it existentially important to their life of faith in God to be right about "who's worse before God: them or Satan." A person who is in the "Lord, have mercy" mood doesn't give this (or its opposite) any import...like what Starky talked about.
Love you, too, btw. 
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You... Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 5:44:37 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/16/2009 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I’m just about words and what they mean. I want to understand. You said that we ought to believe we are more evil than Satan so that the Father can give us his Spirit. It's your claim. That seems obviously false, as I understand it. On the one hand you said you agree (with Stark and me) that we ought only to compare ourselves with Jesus. Then on the other hand you keep insisting that each of us should believe we're more evil than Satan. Then on the one hand not, then on the other hand who knows?
The words “more evil than Satan” mean something. What do they mean to you? Forget other human sinners. Let’s just talk Satan, ‘cause he’s the one you said we should view ourselves as more evil than. What do you feel it is about you that makes you more private and evil in your misrelating and its effects (upon you, others, and the created order) than Satan? I really want to hear that.
Oy vay. This "mystical language" / "real-world language" issue just keeps coming up. Not even just with me...but with much truly authoritative mystical voices in the Christian tradition. The words-to-meaning thing just keeps coming up...which is often why the mystics keep seeming like pantheists to you...right?
Somehow I'm a lot more comfortable with the language than you've been...all this time. I bet it has to do with our personality differences (ENFJ / INTP).
Well, at least we agree on UR. 
PS: EXCELLENT chapter. Chapter 4 of "Into the region of awe: Mysticism in C.S. Lewis" By David C. Downing. Pages 81-105. The whole chapter is there and totally worth reading. Lewis understood, yo. 
"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen
Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You... Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 6:17:20 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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