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One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:48 AM (GMT -6)

Let's bring that quote back up...

"To take the stand that God is at fault for the presence of evil is implicitly to lose one's relation to God since one now becomes God's judge, which is the very position of evil. Thus, to lose one's relationship to God is to lose one's self to evil; to remain agnostic where God and evil are concerned is to lose one's own soul by refusing to choose and implicitly to admit to having a love of God that can be qualified or negated by that which is not God--and thus to confess one neither loves or even knows God."

James Loder on Kierkegaard's "On the Edification Implied in the Fact that Before God We Are Always in the Wrong."

"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:49 AM (GMT -6)

Whole thread

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:49 AM (GMT -6)

D: Surely, you realize that this makes love of the Creator conditional upon what kind of character he has displayed. You realize that, right?

T: Absolutely. We love him because he first loved us. Were God ONLY to command love but not him love, the command would not obligate us to obedience. It is not SHEER power to create, or even the grounding relation, that creates obligation. It is the NATURE of the grounding one that grounds obligation.

D: This completely eliminates the idea of unconditionality of love for the Creator.

T: In the sense I mean it, yeah. But it's obvious to me that our love of God is conditioned upon his loving character. None of us love God irrespective of that.

D: If there is any context in which a person can see themselves saying this to the Creator...

"Creator or not, by your display of character, I don't feel you are worthy of my obedience or love."

T: Sure.

D: ...then for said person, unconditionality of love for the Creator is impossible.

T: In the sense I MEAN it, right. Our love of God is not unconditional in the same sense God's love of us is unconditional. That's quite impossible.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:51 AM (GMT -6)

D: If there is any context in which a person can see themselves saying this to the Creator...

"Creator or not, by your display of character, I don't feel you are worthy of my obedience or love."

T: Sure.

D: ...then for said person, unconditionality of love for the Creator is impossible.

T: In the sense I MEAN it, right. Our love of God is not unconditional in the same sense God's love of us is unconditional. That's quite impossible.

:::having a cardiac arrest:::

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:52 AM (GMT -6)

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:52 AM (GMT -6)

I'm not talking about judging God, D. I'm saying that NOBODY avoids (or can avoid) attributing SOME sort of character to the God who commands us to love him. That command was given in the context of a revealed character and a history of relationship and revealed acts. It didn't just drop out of the sky with a note attached, "This is your Commander speaking. Love me!"

When you say, God commands us to love him you inevitably say God WHO IS X, Y, and Z commands us to love him. There is no God void of content.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:56 AM (GMT -6)

So basically you are saying that creaturely love of the Creator without any conditions is not possible?

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:58 AM (GMT -6)

I'm not saying the revealed God has to pass snuff with us first and then we decide if this revealed God deserves to be obeyed. From my point of view, the revealed God of Scripture DOES deserve to be obeyed unconditionally. But it's THE REVEALED GOD OF SCRIPTURE who is thus to be obeyed. You want to suppose that the SORT of God God has revealed himself to be matters. Were God to turn the tables and say, "Hey, look. I've been lying to you all this time. There is no Satan. I've been playing both parts. Some days I wake up and think to myself f*ck these human beings. Other days I like them." NOW, YOU want to say that JUST BECAUSE God has created us, and for no other reason, if God was this sort of warped freakish God we'd owe him the same obligation to LOVE HIM.

Tell me, D. If God were that sort of God. Just what is it you'd love about him?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 4:58 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
T: In the sense I MEAN it, right. Our love of God is not unconditional in the same sense God's love of us is unconditional. That's quite impossible.

Er..um...theosis?

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/18/2009 5:00 AM (GMT -6)

D: So basically you are saying that creaturely love of the Creator without any conditions is not possible?

T: I'm saying creaturely love OF THE GOD REVEALED IN SCRIPTURE without any conditions is possible. You want to dismiss the GOD OF SCRIPTURE and then still USE SCRIPTURE to say we should really LOVE some OTHER GOD.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:01 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I'm not saying the revealed God has to pass snuff with us first and then we decide if this revealed God deserves to be obeyed. From my point of view, the revealed God of Scripture DOES deserve to be obeyed unconditionally. But it's THE REVEALED GOD OF SCRIPTURE who is thus to be obeyed. You want to suppose that the SORT of God God has revealed himself to be matters. Were God to turn the tables and say, "Hey, look. I've been lying to you all this time. There is no Satan. I've been playing both parts. Some days I wake up and think to myself f*ck these human beings. Other days I like them." NOW, YOU want to say that JUST BECAUSE God has created us, and for no other reason, if God was this sort of warped freakish God we'd owe him the same obligation to LOVE HIM.

Tell me, D. If God were that sort of God. Just what is it you'd love about him?

What does God love about Satan?

By the way, have you read this book?

One of the best books I've ever read.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/18/2009 4:04:13 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:01 AM (GMT -6)

T: In the sense I MEAN it, right. Our love of God is not unconditional in the same sense God's love of us is unconditional. That's quite impossible.

D: Er..um...theosis?

T: Do you COMMAND God to love you? Does God obey you? Is God's love of you his response to some command of yours?

-the end. Hahahaha!

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:06 AM (GMT -6)

D: What does God love about Satan?

T: Ha! I think you're making mistakes here Bro. We're not self-existent love (like God). We do not create the true value of the things we love by virtue of loving them. God does and ONLY God can do this BECAUSE only God GROUNDS our existence and value.

God's love of creation is NOT a response to something in Creation.
Creations love of God IS a response to something in God.

You crossing back and forth between divine and human 'being' too uncritically.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:06 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
D: So basically you are saying that creaturely love of the Creator without any conditions is not possible?

T: I'm saying creaturely love OF THE GOD REVEALED IN SCRIPTURE without any conditions is possible. You want to dismiss the GOD OF SCRIPTURE and then still USE SCRIPTURE to say we should really LOVE some OTHER GOD.

Dude, just because the God revealed in Jesus is easy to love (once truly know) does NOT mean that our love of God is directly related to that "easy to love"-ness. SK, man.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:09 AM (GMT -6)

D: Dude, just because the God revealed in Jesus is easy to love (once truly know) does NOT mean that our love of God is directly related to that "easy to love"-ness. SK, man.

T: I'd never suggest that it's directly related to some sort of easy-to-loveness.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 11/18/2009 5:10 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
D: What does God love about Satan?

T: Ha! I think you're making mistakes here Bro. We're not self-existent love (like God). We do not create the true value of the things we love by virtue of loving them. God does and ONLY God can do this BECAUSE only God GROUNDS our existence and value.

God's love of creation is NOT a response to something in Creation.
Creations love of God IS a response to something in God.

You crossing back and forth between divine and human 'being' too uncritically.

In theosis, a person is able to "see" in the Spirit. This includes the LOGOI of all created things, INCLUDING SATAN. We are able to "see" God's grounding of existence and value...and participate in such. What God loves in Creation, He can, by his Spirit, allow us to see...but in the way He sees in things. This happens ALONG WITH God empowering us to love without conditions.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/18/2009 4:13:35 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:14 AM (GMT -6)

Our love of God is a response to the command of the God of Scripture and grounded in his initiative and invitation. God grounds us.

God's love of us not NOT a response to our commanding God and is NOT grounded in our initiative and invitation. We do not ground God.

THUS, unconditional can't mean the same for us that it means for God. We're conditioned by God in a way he is not conditioned by us. Our LOVE FOR GOD is conditioned in a way that God's love for us is not. God's love of us creates and grounds our value. Our love of God does not create or ground God's value.

I could go on and on dude. All stuff I know you agree to. But you still want to USE the BIBLE to obligated our love for God WERE THE BIBLE TO BE PROVEN TO BE FULL OF LIES, LIES THAT GOD IS INTENTIONALLY TELLING BECAUSE HE'S EVIL.

You simply CANNOT do that.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:15 AM (GMT -6)

How about this?

Think Matrix Revolutions. Neo's last "Because I choose to." to Mr. Smith.

If someone wanted to a God of ECT without conditions, what would be any type of claim or reasoning anyone could give against that? Nope. It would just like in the freedom of the person choosing to do the loving right?

But it can't lay like that here, huh?

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/18/2009 5:18 AM (GMT -6)

D: In theosis, a person is able to "see" in the Spirit. This includes the LOGOI of all created things, INCLUDING SATAN. We are able to "see" God's grounding of existence and value...and participate in such. What God loves in Creation, He can, by his Spirit, allow us to see...but in the way He sees in things. This happens ALONG WITH God empowering us to love without conditions.

T: So what? Literally. What difference does that make? How does that support your dismissing the God OF SCRIPTURE and then USING SCRIPTURE to obligate folks to love God because THE BIBLE SAYS, "You shall love the Lord your God"?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:19 AM (GMT -6)

All I'm saying is that (taking off wiki) unconditional love of God implies loving God REGARDLESS of any actions and beliefs he has, good or bad. THAT is not based on us grounding God's value. You're saying this is impossible.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/18/2009 5:19 AM (GMT -6)

D: If someone wanted to [love] a God of ECT without conditions, what would be any type of claim or reasoning anyone could give against that? Nope. It would just like in the freedom of the person choosing to do the loving right?

T: Not following ya.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:21 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
D: If someone wanted to [love] a God of ECT without conditions, what would be any type of claim or reasoning anyone could give against that? Nope. It would just like in the freedom of the person choosing to do the loving right?

T: Not following ya.

If a person CHOSE to unconditionally love a God of ECT, there could be no claim or reasoning anyone could give the person to be conditional in loving God. In the end, it would just lie with the chooser's freedom. Like Neo.

"Why, Mr. Anderson? Why, WHY, do you persist???"

"Because I choose to."

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/18/2009 5:23 AM (GMT -6)

D: All I'm saying is that (taking off wiki) unconditional love of God implies loving God REGARDLESS of any actions and beliefs he has. You're saying this (loving God REGARDLESS of any actions and beliefs God has, good or bad) is impossible.

T: Dude, think here, OK? HOW is it possible for you to LOVE. Who do you GET your capacity for love from? WHO defines love? WHO makes love possible in the universe?

GOD

God in your is your sustained ability to perceive love and to love. Period. Your loving God is GROUNDING in God's BEING LOVE.

If God IS NOT LOVE, then whatever sort of bootlicking your doing for God, it ain't LOVE. It CANNOT be love.

If GOD is not love; if God were to be EVIL, say. Then there is no love in the universe. Love would be NON-EXISTENT, including YOUR love.

What's difficult about this?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Tom
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:26 AM (GMT -6)

You can love a created being who isn't love. But you can't love a created being who isn't love IF THERE'S NO UNCREATED LOVE in the universe to ground all this. But if, as you insist we MUST IMAGINE TO BE POSSIBLE, God were to be truly evil and f*cked up, i.e., NOT LOVE, then there would be not ontological ground for ANY love in the universe. You can't love God were there to be no being who IS LOVE. But God just iS that being.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Posted 11/18/2009 5:26 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
T: So what? Literally. What difference does that make? How does that support your dismissing the God OF SCRIPTURE and then USING SCRIPTURE to obligate folks to love God because THE BIBLE SAYS, "You shall love the Lord your God"?

I'm NOT dismissing the God of Scripture. I'm saying that the God of Scripture commands unconditionality of love (inseparable from unconditionally of obedience to God in love). If ECT ends up being accurate (which many think is in Scripture) than that unconditionality of love to the God of Scripture stands.

What I keep hearing is this:

1) A God of Scripture (ala ECT) is unlovable. There cannot be unconditionality of love there.

2) If God IS unconditional love, ECT can't exist.

I'm saying that the "you shall love" thing TRANSCENDS all this, being in divine command OF the God of Scripture.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/18/2009 4:36:39 AM (GMT-6)

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