And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And he (Jesus) said to them, “Strive to enter by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then he will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from’.”
 
“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers’.”

“There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out.”

Here’s the sort of UR take I’d offer...

Basically what’s being forfeited and missed here is the KIND of opportunity to come into the Kingdom we PRESENTLY enjoy, i.e., the opportunity to avoid having to experience eschatological judgment in the age to come. That’s it. So, people who fail to take the easy way (presently), who refuse the Lord’s yoke now, will have to come in the hard way, i.e., via eschatological fire. Being told to “depart” and being “cast out” are what that eschatological judgment is. But one can be "depart" and later return, be "cast out" and later welcomed in.

That’s just a quick response.

If you have the time and are so inclined, you’d enjoy Gregory McDonald’s The Evangelical Universalist.

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 11/16/2009 11:21:19 AM (GMT-6)

How 'bout this one: "I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." Which is more compatible? UR or some other view which says you never "get out"?

Post Edited (Corey) : 11/16/2009 1:24:48 PM (GMT-6)

I think I’ve shared this before, but I’ll float it out again. Stay with me on this one, Selah, OK? It’s JUST FOR YOU!

Eph. 3.10-11: “His [God’s] intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Three issues here. The first is the identity of the “rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.” The second is what it means for the wisdom of God to be “made known” to these rulers and authorities. The third is what Paul means by “wisdom.”

1) First, are these benevolent or malevolent authorities? Faithful angelic beings or fallen angels? If benevolent, then they already “get it” basically. And elsewhere rulers and authorities appear to refer to fallen spiritual powers.

2) Second, the question becomes what’s involved in having God’s wisdom “made known”? And assuming that Paul is talking about malevolent spiritual powers, what might all this mean for them? Are they more or less forced to confess the truth about God’s wisdom (without embracing it), or do they perceive and embrace that wisdom?

3) Lastly, regarding what Paul means by “wisdom,” there can be little doubt that he has in mind the gospel itself, i.e., God’s way of redeeming and saving. The “wisdom” of God for Paul is above anything else the message of the Cross, the power of suffering love.

So, (1) and (3) are easy enough. We’re talking about (1) fallen malevolent rulers and authorities and their future relationship to the truth of (3) God’s suffering love in the Cross. The crucial question is what’s involved in these rulers coming “to know” the wisdom of God’s love displayed in the Cross. How do we answer that?

You have two options. It refers either to (a) a forced acknowledgment of some kind on the part of these malevolent fallen spiritual beings that the wisdom of the Cross is right and true or (b) a willing acceptance of the wisdom of the Cross.

Paul says elsewhere (1Cor 2.7-10) that “rulers” don’t understand the “wisdom of God.” They don’t get it. Now, there’s some dispute about the identity of these “rulers” here in 1Cor. Some think human agents are meant, others angelic. But ultimately it doesn’t matter since (a) Paul believed the human agents were motivated by evil agents, and (b) what he says about the Spirit as the unique revealer of God’s “wisdom” would apply to whomever that wisdom is “made known,” angelic or human. And in Ephesians they’re angelic (“rulers and authorities in the heavenly realm”). Only the Spirit can reveal the truth of God’s “wisdom” (which “wisdom” for Paul is the way of redemptive, suffering love). So here in 1Cor (where wisdom is the gospel and fallen rulers are likely in view, just like Ephesians, perceiving the wisdom of God involves more than the ascent of the intellect to mere fact or a kind of forced confession. It suggests an apprehension of spiritual truth which is accepted.

Another passage that helps us understand what having the wisdom of God “made known” involves is right here in Eph. 1:9-10. I’m impressed with the way it anticipates Eph. 3.10-11:

“And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.”

By “made known to us” the mystery of his will Paul clearly means the who experience of the Spirit’s enlightening the mind, the human heart’s response, and the person’s being incorporated into Christ. To have the wisdom of God “made known” to you is to perceive and embrace the revealed goodness and love of God’s wisdom in the Cross.

So take this from ch. 1 to ch. 3. One can say that “made known to us” (v. 9) anticipates what he’ll say in 3.10 (“that the wisdom of God will be made known to the rulers,” etc.). It’s the same making known that’s going on. What God made known to us (the secret of his will, the unity of “all things” in Christ achieved in the Cross) he will through us make known to the celestial rulers and authorities.

My point? In Ephesians 3.10 Paul is saying that through God’s work in the Body of Christ eventually even malevolent fallen spiritual beings will come to perceive and embrace the revealed wisdom of the Cross. That's what I think Paul's saying.

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 11/16/2009 1:40:56 PM (GMT-6)

The mystery hidden before the ages, even to the "rulers" who antedate humaity...to be revealed THROUGH HUMAN VOICE and ACTIVITY in and through Christ and His Body.

With respect to Creation, God ALWAYS had human salvation in mind...and cosmic salvation THROUGH humanity.

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 7:04:57 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 6:06:02 PM (GMT-6)

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.  No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.  None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.  However, as it is written:

       "What no eye has seen,
       what no ear has heard,
       and what no human mind has conceived—
       these things God has prepared for those who love him"

for God has revealed them to us by his Spirit.

By crucifying the "Lord of Glory", they insured the doom of the futile illusion involving perceptions of any failure of God's love.

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 6:46:21 PM (GMT-6)

Just putting that in the mix...

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 6:52:21 PM (GMT-6)

I KNOW you respect SK, Selah. 

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 9:05:32 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (selah) : 11/16/2009 9:43:59 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 9:48:25 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/16/2009 9:57:09 PM (GMT-6)

For perspective, Selah.  When I first got saved, I believed in a literal, burning hell, with ECT and double predestination all the way.  When I first started with Greg's board in 1999, those were my beliefs. Obviously, my views have changed from that.  It hasn't killed me.  Don't think it will kill you if you have a radical change of view either. 

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/17/2009 12:56:43 AM (GMT-6)

I can look at each person, even my wife's lover (who now has moved in to my house and sleeps in my own bedroom with my wife in front of my girls!) and know he is inescapably destined to ultimately be reconcilied with God, and with me. If I didn't believe this, then how could I be patient and kind? It would be so easy to simply write him off and regard him as "chaff". It would be so easy to try to force "righteousness" now. If I'm not going to spend eternity with this guy, then it would be too much like polishing the brass on a sinking ship if I were to just "gut it out".

But now I can "zoom out" and see the day when Jon, Anna and I are perfectly united in praise before God, and any beauty I live out now in this dark place will become a jewel they too can praise God for.

How could I possibly "do" this with an ECT view? I can't fathom it any longer.

Post Edited (Corey) : 11/17/2009 6:43:39 AM (GMT-6)