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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Benedict XVI on God's Motive for Creation | Forum Quick Jump
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/26/2009 3:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is what I disagree with..
http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/
Covenant precedes creation
Much of my own research and writing over the past year has focused on the Barthian theme of the priority of salvation over creation. God's act in Christ "precedes" the creation of the world, and is its foundation. Just this morning, I came across this nice passage:
The history of salvation is not a small event, on a poor planet, in the immensity of the universe. It is not a minimal thing which happens by chance on a lost planet. It is the motive for everything, the motive for creation. Everything is created so that this story can exist – the encounter between God and his creature. In this sense, salvation history, the covenant, precedes creation. During the Hellenistic period, Judaism developed the idea that the Torah would have preceded the creation of the material world. This material world seems to have been created solely to make room for the Torah, for this Word of God that creates the answer and becomes the history of love. The mystery of Christ already is mysteriously revealed here.... One can say that, while material creation is the condition for the history of salvation, the history of the covenant is the true cause of the cosmos.
No, that was not a quote from Karl Barth. It's Benedict XVI...
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I’ll take my stand against this with David Hart and the East.
Tom
Tom
"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/26/2009 3:01 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/7/2009 1:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Yes, glad you caught this POW, because I'm wrong here in saying the East would stand against Benedict in what he says. I know better. Maximus would totally agree.
But there's a slight difference between two difference things...
1. There's milder claim that Benedict here makes, which is simply that God creates SO THAT he can incarnate and be savior of humankind. The fall and redemption (and consummation of course) are all WHY God creates. That means the Cross is the foundation of creation. God creates just so that THIS STORY (the Fall, sin, evil, then the cross and redemption, etc.) can be real. But in this view God's own triune being and FULLNESS don't depend upon the choice to create and incarnate. He's actual perfections and completeness don't require a creation at all. God's BEING TRIUNE excludes GOD'S CHOOSING TO CREATE. I'm a lot closer to this view (though I'd qualify it too).
2. A second and more serious claim is made by others (Maximus and the East evidently, and many today) and it says that God's BEING TRIUNE includes GOD'S CHOOSING TO CREATE. God determines himself AS TRIUNE only in his choice to create. That (it is aruged) is what it means to START WITH THE ECONOMY. If what you can say about who and what God is starts with the economy, then you can't say God is NOT INCARNATE. But in reply folks say, "Um, obviously there was a time when creation didn't exist and God wasn't incarnate" to which it is answered, "Well, you mean just the actual coming to be of it all. Sure. That takes place in time. BUT God was always INTENDING to create and incarnate, essentially, in his very being. The historical man, Jesus, is there in the essence of God." God has is essence, his triune being IN HIS CHOICE TO CREATE (and incarnate, and redeem sinners), etc. There's essentially no logos asarkos (which I believe Robert Jensen has admitted to believing), or at least none that anyone is permitted to speak about. How can you? How can you talk about the logos asarkos if everything you say about God has to BEGIN WITH THE ECONOMY? The begetting of the Son is a betting for creation, for humankind. The spiration of the Spirit likewise is for creation (to effect the divine philanthropia, to execute the divine will to create). The eternal Son, the Logos himself, exists as the archtype of humanity. Apart from the intention to create humanity, we can say nothing about whether there would even be a Son.
I'm not sure actually where Benedict is on these two claims. His quote here only makes the milder first claim. But that's consistent with his holding the second as well. Dunno. When I first posted this I just assumed Benedict believed the 2nd claim. But it doesn't actually say that. He just makes the claim that God creates so that he can save sinners. He doesn't make the further claim that this choice to create to save sinners is what makes God a triune being.
#2 is very confused, I think. One can begin with the economy and get to a full and complete triune God whose triuneness isn't actualized in the choice to create.
Tom
"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas BerdyaevPost Edited (Tom) : 12/7/2009 12:44:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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