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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

Here we go.

Dude, it's not that difficult. Sure, the continuum exists. Babies are born with both set of genetalia. I think this is an obvious physical depravity. It's not that difficult to attribute the continuum to the fallen effects of sin, and quite easy to imagine this whole thing redeemed and set right. I guess I that's something I value and feel is worth doing. It's part of my hermeneutical approach. Dunno.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

Dude, you are REALLY trying for keeping penises, vaginas, testosterone, and estrogen for the end state!

Wowzers. lol

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 5:56 AM (GMT -6)

Whole thread

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 5:58 AM (GMT -6)

I don't KNKOW. I could be wrong. But you and Bruce seem to be claiming to KNOW. Your whole eschatology will fall apart if gender shows up. It won't for me. If it's not there, OK. I'm not gonna insist on it. But if it's there, ALL THE MORE beautiful. It's the beauty of redeemed nature that guides me. I assume it's gonna be there unless I have a good reason to leave it. I can't see any good reason to leave 'gender' differentiation. But I could be wrong. I guess Maximus can't be. Must be nice to be a Saint.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

Ah! I've got it. This'll help.

Ok, Tom. Let's say that we are in the future and somehow, your brain got placed into a cyborg androgynous body. You open your eyes and see yourself. You have all of your MEMORIES intact, by which you continue to compose your world.

Are you male or female now? If so, by what means? Is your capacity for self-reference and self-transcendence a marked by gender? Again, by what means?

Personally, I'd say that you would then be neither male nor female, even if you REMEMBERED what it was like to have a penis and have tons of testosterone.

What say you?

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/10/2009 5:03:41 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 6:03 AM (GMT -6)

Sure, I can IMAGINE that.

WHY do you think this is what God has planned for us?

I can imagine swimming underwater and breathing like a fish and flying unaided through the air. I mean, if what we can imagine is to guide us, why not image ourselves differentiated by gender rather than not? What's getting you to push the "erase gender" botton? It's not in the text. It's not unity-in-differentiation (that would favor MY view). So what is it?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:07 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
WHY do you think this is what God has planned for us? I mean, if what we can imagine is to guide us, why not imaging ourselves differentiated by gender rather than not? What's getting you to erasing gender? It's not the text. It's not unity-in-differentiation (that would favor MY view). So what is it?

I just think that, of all the options you laid out, option b has the best cumulative grounds right now. That's all. Reposting my interpretions of your options...

(a) Gender distinction is an evil that resulted from the human fall.

(b) Gender distinction is a precautionary step taken by God to insure that if humanity fell, we’d still have a way to avoid falling into utter solipsism.

(c) Gender distinction shares in defining the necessary epistemic distance that we HAVE to have if we’re to become what God wants.

(d) Gender distinction is essential in bearing the divine image as such.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:09 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Sure, I can IMAGINE that.

You didn't answer my question. It hits right to the point of whether or not gender is more psychological or physical. Would you continue to be a male just because you "remember" being one? See what I'm trying to get at?

D, do you reduce the difference between 'male' and 'female' to genitalia? Or are there psychological, even spiritual, differences between the sexes that inhere to them non-materially as well as materially?

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/10/2009 5:13:16 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 6:11 AM (GMT -6)

It all comes down to intuitions! Ha. Damn things. I'm telling ya, intuition RULES.

Let's have a Long Island!

So let me get this straight...in heaven we each have our own body. No penises, vaginas, anuses, breasts or any hair at all. Probably no teeth, stomach, or lungs. We can't die and don't need to eat or breath air.

What features of our bodies would you say are NECESSARY (not superfluous) to our end-state purposes?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 6:16 AM (GMT -6)

D: You didn't answer my question. It hits right to the point of whether or not gender is more psychological or physical. Would you continue to be a male just because you "remember" being one?

T: I don't know. I honestly don't know if gender is ONLY genitalia or whether it also embraces some psychologial features. Can't say. I know a LOT of experts do NOT feel gender is exhaustively reducible to body parts.

So I don't know what I'd "BE" in your imagined state. Honestly. But it's academic isn't it? I mean, I can imagine a state in which you're still obviously 'male'. Is that an argument for believing you SHALL BE male in the eschaton?

Serve me up a Long Island!

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:16 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
What features of our bodies would you say are NECESSARY (not superfluous) to our end-state purposes?

I suppose enough features to be recognizable to people we've known on earth and to ourselves, assuming a level of continuity between the natural body and the spiritual body.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:20 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I know a LOT of experts do NOT feel gender is exhaustively reducible to body parts.

Of course gender identification is not exhaustibly reducible to physiology...if what is meant is the psycho-somatic socialization process that surrounds the physiology of a human. (Like "blue" is for boys and "pink" is for girls...right?) But this is far from saying that gender exists as an actual non-corporeal reality, rather than an existential lens of self-interpretation. Like a person can have a male or female spiritual essence or something like that...

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 6:20 AM (GMT -6)

It always come down to the penis. Sheesh.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:22 AM (GMT -6)

Actually, it comes down to X and Y chromosomes.

Ha! rotfl

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:34 AM (GMT -6)

Fact: All human beings start out FEMALE.

In humans, the "default" processes of reproduction result in an individual with female characteristics. An intact Y chromosome contains what is needed to "reprogram" the processes sufficiently to produce male characteristics, leading to sexual differentiation (see also Sexual dimorphism). Part of the Y chromosome, the Sex-determining Region Y (SRY), causes what would normally become ovaries to become testes. These, in turn, produce male hormones called androgens. However, several points in the processes have been identified where variations can result in people with atypical characteristics, including atypical sexual characteristics. Terminology for atypical sexual characteristics has not stabilized. Disorder of sexual development (DSD) is used by some in preference to intersex, which is used by others in preference to pseudohermaphroditism.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 6:37 AM (GMT -6)

In heaven we'll all be ONE color, have NO gender, NO hair, NO teeth, and NO lungs or stomachs.

Gee, I can't wait.

Come to think of it, my 85 year old Mom must have gone through theosis already 'cause this pretty much describes her today.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Post Edited (Tom) : 12/10/2009 5:40:13 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 6:41 AM (GMT -6)

Hey, at least your love relationship with God and God's Creation will be consummated. Your joy in God will be complete. That's all you need, right? The one needful thing, right? Surely you won't trip if you're missing some "assets"...

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 6:43 AM (GMT -6)

If that's all the consummation God seeks or is planning on, then I hope he'll take recommendations OR give me a lobotomy so that I actually find this beautiful.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 7:01 AM (GMT -6)

Awwww...poor Timmy...I mean Tommy...

(Picture)

(Video)

Timmy is being made fun of by Dr. Bender and his son Wendell because of his large buck teeth, so he wishes for everyone to look the same. But soon all the fairies in the world realize that they can't tell which kid is which to grant wishes, and as a result, they explode from a magic buildup, and Cosmo and Wanda must hurry to fix everything, before they explode too!

I love this show... yeah

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/10/2009 6:06:52 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 7:06 AM (GMT -6)

Dude, don't you sleep?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 7:09 AM (GMT -6)

I kept getting blank pages on the video. Ats oK. ;o)

Let's just say that I can imagine something much more beautiful than what YOU'RE describing. I'm sure God'll come though and surpass my expectations. Heh.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Post Edited (Tom) : 12/10/2009 11:11:29 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 11:05 AM (GMT -6)

Whole thread

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/10/2009 12:13 PM (GMT -6)

I wrote Louth in England. ha! I must be losing my mind.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/10/2009 12:33 PM (GMT -6)

Trust me, dawg. We BOTH losin' our minds. (You see my mania/insomnia with this...) Let's pray God keeps on catchin' em, drawing them to the superrational Truth, the Mystery of the Ages.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

Asher
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477

Posted 12/10/2009 5:12 PM (GMT -6)

No marriage in heaven does not mean no sex in heaven. Just sayin'!

There are countless references to angelic beings having sex with humans, so there may be something approximating sex even for angels.

During natal development there is a point at which there is brain formatting by male or female hormones, in which the brain is more or less basted in the appropriate hormones. As a result certain functions are enlarged in males and certain other functions are enlarged in females.

There are instances of people being born without either male or female genitalia and without the aforementioned hormone basting, but they are usually short lived because many other systems (urinary, intestinal, etc.) are not functionally formed either.

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