Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
36 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/25/2010 10:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Reading a nice collection of essays in Divine Impassibility and the Mystery of Human Suffering (Eerdmans, 2009). The essayists include passibilists and impassibilists.

 

Open theists all agree on a single defining belief—divine epistemic openness regarding future contingents. That’s pretty much it. But not all open theists defend that claim exactly the same way (though there is general agreement on some core arguments). And there are a couple of things open theists have also agreed upon that differentiate them from process theists too (like belief in both the Trinity and creation ex nihilo). But even here there are some novel combinations. You have open theists like Tom Oord (I think he sees himself an an open theist), who is trinitarian but denies ex nihilo. So he's unlike process folks in that he affirms the Trinity but agrees with the process doctrine of a necessary God-World relation (in which the world contributes to constituting God ‘essentially’). I suppose one could press Tom O on why he thought God was Trinitarian and what relationship the World has to determining the Trinitarian relations. Some (McCormack, McCormack’s ‘Barth’, and Robert Jenson) want to say that God achieves his triune identity/being dialectically in and through the World’s history (namely, via incarnation and resurrection).

 

Here’s the thing. Since open theism got airborne there’s been emerging a continuum stretching between process theism and classical theology along which open theists take up positions on the question of God’s transcendence and the freedom and gratuity of the act of creation. The patriarchs of open theism (Pinnock, Sanders, Rice, Boyd, Basinger, and Hasker) all believe in ex nihilo (i.e. they affirm the freedom and gratuity of God’s choice to create. Whatever else they may believe about divine transcendence, it includes the belief in aseity (which has to do with God’s self-existence and self-sufficiency sans creation). God—in God’s deity, his God-defining qualities—is already eternally all God need be to be God. He’s essentially unsurpassably “full” as God. I’m sure there are differences here, but this basic point is secure.

 

But this patriarchal view may become a minority view among open theists. As I read online and visit blogs, it does seem to me that many open theists see little value in anything like a traditional view of divine aseity. That’s seen as just so much ‘classical’ theism to be let go of along with other objectionable attributes (like divine simplicity and timelessness). Tom Oord (‘Yes’ to Trinity but ‘No’ divine aseity sans creation) may represent what becomes the main form open theism takes.

 

I for one see ex nihilo as an important doctrine and find great value in divine aseity sans creation (i.e., the freedom and gratuity of the act of creation). So I gravitate toward the Orthodox end of the spectrum that stretches between process and traditional theisms. Part of my research over the next few years at London will be arguing that open theism is best located at the Orthodox end of the spectrum.

 

I’ve been reading more in favor of the traditional (‘classical’) view on divine impassibility and I have to say that I’m not as—what shall I say?—judgmental or dismissive of it as I was when I first encountered it via the writings of open theists themselves. When I read Weinandy, Gavrilyuk or Hart on the Fathers it seems to me that there actually is something important about God that they want to protect which I as an open theist agree OUGHT to be protected. To have thought critically enough to make the important changes they made to Neoplatonism’s worldview makes it impossible to argue that the Father’s were just drunk on Neoplatonism and blindly let it dictate how they conceived and articulated the Christian faith. So while I still think impassibilism and divine timelessness are wrong, I’m also not so sure open theists have done enough toe-to-toe work with the actual arguments for why God ought to be viewed as, for example, ‘impassible’ or ‘timeless’.

 

With that in mind, I want to post a bit of an argument from Thomas Weinandy’s essay “God and Human Suffering” in the above volume. Weinandy has written two relevant books (Does God Change? [St. Bede’s, 1985] and Does God Suffer? [Notre Dame, 2000]) and is an impassibilist. I thought his arguments open up a great opportunity for discussion. I’ll post separately so this post doesn’t become so long.

 

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/25/2010 11:56:56 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/25/2010 11:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Here’s Weinandy (minus the footnotes):

 

The Act of Creation as Revelatory of God

Here I want to recast Aquinas’s argument found in his De Ente et Essentia. There Aquinas distinguishes, within finite beings, ente (being) from essentia (essence). In order for finite beings to exist they must be given being, for their essence or nature does not necessitate that they exist, and they of themselves cannot account for their own existence. Aquinas concludes that God must be “pure being”* (esse tantum) or “being itself” (ipsum esse), for “being” is required if creatures are to be, and only a being who is “being itself” is able to bestow “being” upon others. To reinforce what Aquinas concludes, I want to highlight the nature of that “giving” or “bestowing of being,” that is, the act of creation, for it is the “act of giving” which necessarily determines and so accentuates the ontological nature of God as “giver.”

 

When we survey the cosmos as a whole, we find that everything that exists is in potency to change—either to become more or less what it is (accidental change), or to cease to exist in the process of becoming something else (substantial change). It is this actualization of potency, this process of change that accounts for time and thus marks out history. However, this potential for change, whether accidental or substantial, must necessarily be constitutive of something that presently is, for if it did not exist it would not possess the potential to change. Thus, “change” is the process by which something is in act in one manner and, through and action of its own or by an action of another, is subsequently actualized in another manner. For example, Charles must exist as Charles in a certain actualized manner in order for him to change and so be Charles in a newly actualized manner. Thus, there is an ontological priority of “existence” (esse), that is, that something is and is in act in a certain manner, over that of “potency,” what it could be by way of change, on that something possesses potency only insofar as it exists and is in act in a certain manner.

 

While the cosmos and everything in it exists, and so is in act in some manner with the potential to further change and so be in act in another manner, neither it as a whole nor the individuals within it are of such a kind that, following the truth expressed by Aquinas, what they are ontologically demands that they actually be; nor can they account for their own existence. While stars, dogs, human beings, etc., exist and are in act in a certain manner, there is nothing intrinsic in what they are that demands that they be or accounts for the fact that they actually do exist. However, since the cosmos and everything within it does actually exist and since existence is ontologically prior to potency, the act of creation is that act whereby something comes to be or exists and so to be in act in a certain manner with the consequent potential to be in act in another manner—either accidentally or substantially.

 

Because the act of creation is the bringing of something into existence, that is, that it be in act in a certain manner, that which brings something into existence must possess the ability to do so. That being would be God. However, as seen above, such ability cannot reside within a being which is in act in one manner and is capable of being in act in a subsequent manner through change, for such a being would possess the same contingent ontological status as everything else, and so could not be God. Rather such ability to enact the act of creation can only reside in a being whose very nature is “to be,” that is, to be “pure act,” and as such is ontologically incapable of further enacting some self-actualizing or self-constituting potential after the manner of everything else that exists. It is precisely because such a being possesses no inherent self-actualizing potential that it does possess the positive potential to bring something other than itself into existence, that is, to be in act in some manner. Thus the very character of the act of creation reveals and so demands that God be “being itself” and so “pure act,” for any other mode of existence, one which by necessity would possess self-constituting potential within its own actuality, would be incapable of performing such an act.

 

It is obviously true to say that God can create because he is almighty and all-powerful, but for him to be such demands  that he exist in a certain manner. It is not just, as Jenson would seem to have it, that he possesses undefined and indeterminate infinite amount of power, but rather he must possess this infinite power in a very specific and precise manner. From our analysis, the act of creation determines and so defines that to be almighty or all-powerful necessitates that a being be “pure act,” for “might” is power in act; and to be almighty demands that one simply be “pure act” and so possess the plenitude of power. Thus, God as “being itself,” creates by the pure act that he himself is because no other act than the “pure act” that he is is capable of so doing.**

 

----------------------

 

*Tom’s note: Weinandy later explains “…to say that God is ‘being itself’ and thus ‘pure act’ means that he is immutable not in the sense of being static or inert, but rather that being ‘pure act’ he is so dynamic that no further self-constituting action could possibly make him more dynamic.” Elsewhere he says there is in God no “self-actualizing potential” which is unfulfilled. God’s ‘identity’ as a personal being, or his being ‘as a person’, is fully and utterly realized and actual. He cannot “become” any more personal than he eternally is, cannot achieve a personal ‘identity’ which is not already eternally his own. Any open theist can agree with this! As he opens his essay, he asks, “Do such divine historical actions [viz., creating] bear upon the very being of God, that is, do they ontologically affect God in a manner that is constitutive of who he is….” I’d say, they do affect his very being but NOT in a manner constitutive of ‘who’ he is. God cannot change or increase his “who.” Any open theist can agree with this as well! So where’s the argument then? Surely there’s more to ‘classical’ theism than this. There is. But it’s found in arguments that move FROM this fullness of personal being and identity to other things (like divine timelessness and impassibility) that Weinandy (and the WHOLE classical tradition) thinks is entailed by God’s being full and unimprovable in this sense. They think God’s being this full does entail such timelessness. I don’t think it does.

 

**Tom’s note: One could object that if God commands creation be by the same pure act which constitutes his own existence (as Weinandy argues), and if creation’s actuality is entailed in God’s command that it be (and it is), then the freedom and gratuity of creation are destroyed. Creation can be no more gratuitious than God can be on this view (something Weinandy denies). Weinandy has an escape: “While the act of creation demands that God act by no other act than the ‘pure act’ that he is, our minds are incapable of conceiving the manner in which ‘pure act’ acts, for our direct knowledge is limited only to actions of beings who are not ‘pure act’.” Sweeeeeet play of the mystery card there!


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/25/2010 12:12:26 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 3/25/2010 6:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vrey interesting, Tom!


(o)

Back to Top
 

Daniel M
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/25/2010 6:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Tom,

I'm finding a problem with how he's defining change. He defines change as "either to become more or less what it is (accidental change), or to cease to exist in the process of becoming something else (substantial change)".

This seems to cover change concerning the material world. But how does this account for volitional change in subjects? I change my mind, I am not becoming more or less of myself. Nor am I becoming something else. I am becoming a different form of me. He uses the example of Charles, but that example is only relevant to his point concerning the necessity of existence for change, it doesn't defend, or explain, how when a subject changes her mind she is "more or less" than what she was before. Nothing was added to her, and nothing was taken away, nor did she become something else, but she changed.

Also, isn't the act of creation an act of "self-actualization" since it is fulfilling a potential in-itself, namely the act of creating. I don't see how acting, in any manner, is not a form of self-actualization, or the fulfillment of potential. If God is free to act, then God is free to change. To act is to give something a history. Thus, if God created then at some point he acted to create, and I don't see how this is conceivable inside of a non-temporal existence.
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/25/2010 10:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel,

Yeah, I don't like his definition of "accidental change" as "becoming either more or less of what a thing is." As you say, one can change 'accidentally' and remain what one is 'essentially'. If God does change in an some accidental, i.e., non-essential, way, he's neither more nor less who he essentially is.

I'm not sure every act of volition is an act of "self-actualization." I guess it depends on what you think "self-actualization" entails. To me it means one "achieves" one's personal identity in the choice in question, and I don't think creation can mean that for God. He doesn't "come to possess" (i.e. "actualize" ) WHO he is by creating. That WOULD be the sort of 'becoming' I'd want to agree with the Orthodox that can't occur in God's case. But if you mean every act of volition is an actual self-expression, then yeah. There's no problem with that. What Weinandy would say is that there are no conceivable 'self-expressions' that do not 'achieve' personal identity, so that any such expressions have to be eternally actual/determinate for God. But why in the world think that?

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 3/26/2010 7:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for this post, Tom. I'm following along.


 

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 3/28/2010 6:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

TOM: He doesn't "come to possess" (i.e. "actualize" ) WHO he is by creating.

JEFF: Can't we say God BECAME a father of created beings by creating? I think what we want to say is that God doesn't BECOME socially-relational by creating. He already was that independent of creation. But He apparently can take on relationships that were contingent in the sense that they didn't have to "start" but are necessary NOW in the sense that His nature compels their continuation.



 

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/28/2010 6:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah Jeff. That's doable. But Eastern Orthodoxy is uncomfortable with even this much. If God is temporal in any sense (so I understand) then it must be the case that he is 'essentially' temporal too, and that means that he, like everything we observe in the temporal world, becomes--achieves his being over time; let's say "becoming" means "instantiating one's natural/teleological end. I think the mistake is to think that because things that come to fulfill their end do so temporally that all things that are temporal are by definition experience the same movement from 'not having fulfilled their telos' to 'having fulfilled their telos'. The EO wants to say (rightly) that there's no such movement in God. And since ALL temporal movement is by definition FROM a state of not having fulfilled their telos TO having fulfilled their telos, God can't be temporal. But I think the assumption (that all temporal experience involves this kind of movement) is bad.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 3/28/2010 10:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is a nonsequitor, just because I saw it...

(from The Lenten Tridion, p.593, tone 6, canticle 5)

"...emptied Thyself, and impassibly,...submitted to Thy Passion "


impassibly submitted to Thy Passion


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 3/28/2010 10:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
essence

energies


(o)

Back to Top
 

Daniel M
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/29/2010 12:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey guys,

I think Jeff is right in that God was socially-relational prior to creation (the triune dance, and all that good stuff).

Tom: I guess it depends on what you think "self-actualization" entails. To me it means one "achieves" one's personal identity in the choice in question, and I don't think creation can mean that for God. He doesn't "come to possess" (i.e. "actualize" ) WHO he is by creating.

Daniel: Hmmm. But then does creation tell us anything about God? If God choose to create, then he made a decision to create, which implies that God was at T1 not a god who had created this reality, and then at T2 a God who was/had creat(ed)ing our reality., or did God foreknow that decision from eternity? But... doesn't that entail that all of God's actions are epistemologically settled? And maybe I'm being to Greek here, but since Weinandy made a reference to Aquinas, who is an Aristotelian pretty much all the way down, I'm not sure I can over emphasize the Greek conception of self-actualization, which is to fulfill your potential. And God has a potential, at the very least, to create. Because prior to creation, there was God. Once the decision to create became actualized, God was now a God who had created. (This is, of course, arrogantly placing the creation of our reality as God's only act of creation). But maybe that is a problem Open Theists need to respond to: If God experiences eternal duration, what was before this reality? Given that God is a god who creates. And if we want to avoid God coming to actualize himself as a god who creates when he created this reality, then I think it might be an honest question to ask what was going on before.

Or maybe I'm just missing a piece of the puzzle somewhere.
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/29/2010 8:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel,

Good comments.

Let's take "fulfillment of potential" as a definition of self-actualization. So you can see why Weinandy wants to say there's no unfulfilled potential in God. The Orthodox also affirm that God, as pure act, is eternally and actually all God can be, including the choice to create and incarnate. Even all God's choices to respond to us in time. God eternally makes a single choice that covers all that and it 'goes out' from God. These all are God's 'energies'. I don't think this works, but what else can you do if you have to deny all temporality in God?

And BECAUSE all temporal experience entails moving from potency to actuality, they deny this of God. God can't experience this sort of movement in his being. God has to always be actually fulfilled. If not, then he can't be self-existent because beings that move from potency to actuality are "moved" to do so by something outside themselves. And since God can't be moved to be/become GOD by anything outside himself, it must be that he just IS (doesn't become) this.

I think some of this has to be the case with God (with his existence per se and what constitutes that). But this doesn't entail denying God temporal experience. God can have SOME essential properties that persist unchanged through time, and other ad extra acts that EXPRESS who he is without CONSTITUTING who he is (as divine persons). I'm not sure how to argue this, but would like to work on it. So creation does involve a change for God, a change God experiences, one that's not eternal, and this involves a move from potency to actuality BUT not with respect to those properties that define God essentially.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/29/2010 9:53:04 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/29/2010 10:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In other words, is it the case that temporal experience by definition entails an 'essential becoming', i.e., a movement in/of 'essence' from potentiality to actuality?

So there are two possible responses to Weinandy:

a) God can be temporal but unchanging with respect to essential attributes. So his essential attributes remain the same through time. This option distinguishes between God's essence and time per se.

or

b) God's unchanging attributes could be such that they entail time, i.e., they require the flow of time to be what they are even if they're unchanging in some respects (always actual unsurpassable beauty and intensity of aesthetic satisfaction).

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

Daniel M
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 12:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Tom,

Tom: Let's take "fulfillment of potential" as a definition of self-actualization. So you can see why Weinandy wants to say there's no unfulfilled potential in God.

Daniel: For sure.

Tom: God eternally makes a single choice that covers all that and it 'goes out' from God. These all are God's 'energies'. I don't think this works, but what else can you do if you have to deny all temporality in God?

Daniel: I'm right with ya.

Tom: God can have SOME essential properties that persist unchanged through time, and other ad extra acts that EXPRESS who he is without CONSTITUTING who he is (as divine persons). I'm not sure how to argue this, but would like to work on it.

Daniel: Hmmm. I'm not really sure how it would work either. But what does it mean to constitute "who" God is? I don't think anthropomorphic analogies are going to work very well, because, as the existentialists argue, our actions change who we are. I am now a person how has sat down and responded to this post. A week ago I was not a person who had responded to this post. Our temporal experience changes us because of what it means to have temporal experience. But I don't think we have to go all the way with the existentialists and posit existence prior to essence. To stay with the Greeks for a bit, the principle of identity, somehow, holds true. But does it hold true even when the content of a particular subject changes? Can the criminal truly reform into a law-abiding citizen? Can the unredeemed truly become one of the redeemed? I think we HAVE to say yes. But all that does (in the context of human experience, perception, and temporarily) is show that temporal experience allows for significant amount of change in the character of humans beings.


Tom: God can be temporal but unchanging with respect to essential attributes. So his essential attributes remain the same through time. This option distinguishes between God's essence and time per se.

Daniel: I'm thinking the weakness of this option is our ability to distinguish what attributes are eternal and which are subject to/influenced by creation. Open Theists, I think, would all agree that the content of Gods knowledge grows with the expansion of free-choices into time. But what about God's interaction? Do we say that all of Gods interaction with creation is based out of an essential attribute of Love, but that attribute gets expressed contingently upon whatever situation God faces in a free creation? I feel like that would beg a number of questions concerning the OT (Maybe that's why Greg is focusing his next book on that issue). If it was loving for God to instruct Joshua to utterly wipe out an entire people...what does that say about love?

Further, we have to say that the act of creation (or maybe even the perpetual action of sustaining creation) is in someway constituting who God is. Because he is doing it. Even if we define God as "pure act" he is still constituted by the acts he choose to do in that eternal instant when God decided everything for eternity. Is there really a difference in saying that God is constituted by his actions, even though his actions are located in duration?

Post Edited (Daniel M) : 3/30/2010 12:24:52 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 6:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: God can have SOME essential properties that persist unchanged through time, and other ad extra acts that EXPRESS who he is without CONSTITUTING who he is (as divine persons). I'm not sure how to argue this, but would like to work on it.

Daniel: Hmmm. I'm not really sure how it would work either. But what does it mean to constitute "who" God is?

Tom: God is constituted (we’re just speaking logically, not as if God actually is constructed or put together over time) by his relations—paternity, filiation, spiration. To be God is to be those persons in relation.

Daniel: I don't think anthropomorphic analogies are going to work very well, because, as the existentialists argue, our actions change who we are.

Tom: I don’t see that every action changes who we are. Some of our actions are extraneous to determining or changing our identity. They’re ad extra even to us. My fundamental identity in Christ is not ‘changed’ when I flush the toilet.

Daniel: I am now a person who has sat down and responded to this post.

Tom: That’s an event that 'who' you are experienced, but it doesn’t determine or change ‘who’ you are.

Maybe we need to talk about what ‘who’ means. I mean (in our case) your fundamental identity as a son of God in Christ. THAT doesn’t change over time (once it’s fully apprehended of course). That person can have a changing experience, yes, but the person doesn’t become a different person, or become more a person that he/she was. Same person—novel experience. If we believe God doesn’t need or require the world but creates it contingently, then we have to say the divine persons/identities don’t need or require the world, that God's fully personal within the triune relations. And when the world comes along the divine persons don’t become different persons, or even more full or complete persons. Same persons. But they DO (I argue, though the Orthodox deny it) have novel experiences. That’s what I have in mind.

Daniel: To stay with the Greeks for a bit, the principle of identity, somehow, holds true. But does it hold true even when the content of a particular subject changes?

Tom: Not sure what “content of a subject” means here. You just mean the events that make up a person’s experience?

What we’re saying is that for a necessarily existing being like God there is a necessary content to his experience. And it’s THAT content that constitutes ‘who’ God is (i.e., that is the triune ‘persons’). So I don’t see how creation contributes to THAT.

Lovin it.

Gotta run,

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/30/2010 10:32:46 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 2:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Excellent stuff, Tom. ;-)


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 2:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
"Maybe we need to talk about what ‘who’ means. I mean you fundamental identity as a son of God in Christ. THAT doesn’t change by over time (once it’s fully apprehended of course). That person can having a changing experience, yes, but the person doesn’t become a different person. Same person—novel experience. If we believe God doesn’t need or require the world but creates it contingently, then we have to say the divine persons/identities don’t need or require the world. And when the world comes along the divine persons don’t become different persons. Same persons—novel experience. That’s what I have in mind."

Feel me on this. God the Son is eternally the Father's Only Begotten, even sans Creation (and Incarnation). The Father's Only Begotten is "who" the Son IS. He is God's Eternal Word. ("Before Abraham was, I Am." ) For eternity, the Son has always been the great "I Am."

I think we'd want to say that God the Son's experience of creaturely reality in self-relationship is a NOVEL experience in the life of the Triune God. And the Great "I Am" experiences being "I Am...Immanuel." But this doesn't fundamental change WHO God the Son is...more than God the Son as "Immanuel" is a contingent expression of WHO God the Son is as DIVINE person, being the Perfect Image of the God the Father. 

Let's never forget.  The ONLY Person in the Trinity who has been incarnated is God the Son, but the incarnational experience of the Son "ripples" into the very inner life of the Trinity as a NOVEL expression of divine personhood.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/30/2010 2:21:44 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 4:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
God can have SOME essential properties that persist unchanged through time, and other ad extra acts that EXPRESS who he is without CONSTITUTING who he is (as divine persons). I'm not sure how to argue this, but would like to work on it. So creation does involve a change for God, a change God experiences, one that's not eternal, and this involves a move from potency to actuality BUT not with respect to those properties that define God essentially.

Argue it from the standpoint of the Incarnation of God the Son. Being the Incarnate Word doesn't change the divine sonship in the person of the Son, but divine sonship is EXPRESSED from the Person of the Son in a new way via creaturely existence. Unless someone wants to be Arian and say that God the Son is NOT homoousias with the Father and did NOT exist before the decision to create.

By the way, it is this "life exchange" between the divine and human in the one Person of the Incarnate Word (God the Son) that allows for human persons to be "adopted" as sons and daughters of God.  (Galatians 4:1-7; Romans 8:12-21)


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/30/2010 4:53:17 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 9:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love said...

Feel me on this. God the Son is eternally the Father's Only Begotten, even sans Creation (and Incarnation). The Father's Only Begotten is "who" the Son IS. He is God's Eternal Word. ("Before Abraham was, I Am." ) For eternity, the Son has always been the great "I Am."

I think we'd want to say that God the Son's experience of creaturely reality in self-relationship is a NOVEL experience in the life of the Triune God. And the Great "I Am" experiences being "I Am...Immanuel." But this doesn't fundamental change WHO God the Son is...more than God the Son as "Immanuel" is a contingent expression of WHO God the Son is as DIVINE person, being the Perfect Image of the God the Father. 

Let's never forget.  The ONLY Person in the Trinity who has been incarnated is God the Son, but the incarnational experience of the Son "ripples" into the very inner life of the Trinity as a NOVEL expression of divine personhood.

Amen!!!


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 9:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ditto on the post that came after it, too.


(o)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 10:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bruce, you're agree with D that God has "novel" experiences? This introduces 'time' into God's experiences.

You'll want to locate all this in God's 'energies' I suppose. I'm not sure what that even means. Sometimes that just looks like a photocopied God located outside of the essential God and the photocopy does all the experiencing while the essential God remains untouched.

I just find the whole essence/energies thing very artificial.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 10:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
You'll want to locate all this in God's 'energies' I suppose. I'm not sure what that even means. Sometimes that just looks like a photocopied God located outside of the essential God and the photocopy does all the experiencing while the essential God remains untouched.

I just find the whole essence/energies thing very artificial.

Let's make an analogy.  It may work and it may not...

Essence is like unto Merton's "point of nothingness" in a human being.  Basically, the individual "logos" (Greg's "eschatological essence" ) of a particular human being.

Energies is like unto the noetic/mental activity in a human being. Basically, the activity of the "logos"  (including Loder's "ego periphery" ) of a particular human being.

To experience the noetic/mental activity in a human being is to AUTHENTICALLY experience the human being...even though the depths of the "point of nothingness" in said human being is inaccessible to any other human being.  The ego periphery just IS the human person...just like the eschatological self that grounds that ego periphery IS the human person as well.  Here, being and action are inseparable, but not identical. (My thought is that there is actually a bi-polar assymetrical relational unity going on here...and with God's Essence and Energies.) 

You would not say that your own ego periphery in action is merely a "photocopied Tom" which does all the experiencing located outside of the "essential Tom", which remains untouched...now would you?  No.   I think you would say that there is an dimension of your personal existence that transcends, yet finds embodiment in the energetic process of your ego periphery.

Reposting...

The Christian "self" can say this:

 
"Who I truly am includes, yet transcends, my mind/brain unity or any of it's activities, including the emergence of my self-referential, self-reflective loop, called my ego.  I HAVE a human mind.  However, the totality of who I am isn't exhausted by my mental, psychological, or emotional activity.  Moreover, that aspect of me that transcends (yet finds embodiment in) my mind/brain unity is in a continuous dependent, transparent, and reciprocal love relationship with the personal Source of my being, the Uncreated Creator Spirit, also the Holy Spirit of the Risen God-man Jesus."


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/30/2010 11:18:46 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 11:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, and if you think of it this way...

God's Essence <=> Personal Transcendence <=> Human "eschatological essence"

God's Energies <=> Personal Immanence <=> Human "ego periphery"

Does this help, Tom?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 11:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And pluggin' things in, they make sense.

It IS in God's Energies that God experiences the novelty of the Incarnation/Creation (and continuous creation), just like it is in the human ego periphery that we experience the transience of becoming persons with enduring personal histories and identities. The human "point of nothingness" of a person doesn't experience this; it TRANSCENDS, yet GROUNDS this activity...just like God's Essence transcends, yet grounds his Energies.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/30/2010 11:28:06 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 3/30/2010 11:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's put this in Hesychast mode. Gregory Palamas didn't want to say that human beings seeing the "uncreated light" of God (ie. God's Spirit continually creating creation, including oneself) were seeing the ESSENCE of God. That would be idolatrous. But he did want to say that what was seen was God Himself working, therefore meeting God "face-to-face", as it were.

Badda boom badda bam.

Essence/energies.

-----------------------------------------------------

Gregory Palamas: defender of Hesychasm
 
about the year 1337, hesychasm attracted the attention of a learned member of the Orthodox Church, Barlaam, a Calabrian monk who at that time held the office of abbot in the Monastery of St Saviour in Constantinople and who visited Mount Athos. Mount Athos was then at the height of its fame and influence, under the reign of Andronicus III Palaeologus and under the 'first-ship' of the Protos Symeon. On Mount Athos, Barlaam encountered Hesychasts and heard descriptions of their practices, also reading the writings of the teacher in Hesychasm of St Gregory Palamas, himself an Athonite monk. Trained in Western Scholastic theology, Barlaam was scandalized by hesychasm and began to combat it both orally and in his writings. As a private teacher of theology in the Western Scholastic mode, Barlaam propounded a more intellectual and propositional approach to the knowledge of God than the Hesychasts taught.

Barlaam took exception to the doctrine entertained by the Hesychasts as to the nature of the light, the experience of which was said to be the goal of Hesychast practice, regarding it as heretical and blasphemous. It was maintained by the Hesychasts to be of divine origin and to be identical to the light which had been manifested to Jesus' disciples on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration.[5] This Barlaam held to be polytheistic, inasmuch as it postulated two eternal substances, a visible and an invisible God.

On the Hesychast side, the controversy was taken up by St Gregory Palamas, afterwards Archbishop of Thessalonica, who was asked by his fellow monks on Mt Athos to defend hesychasm from the attacks of Barlaam. St Gregory himself was well-educated in Greek philosophy. St Gregory defended hesychasm in the 1340s at three different synods in Constantinople, and he also wrote a number of works in its defense.

In these works, St Gregory Palamas uses a distinction, already found in the 4th century in the works of the Cappadocian Fathers, between the energies or operations (Gr. energeies) of God and the essence of God. St Gregory taught that the energies or operations of God were uncreated. He taught that the essence of God can never be known by his creature even in the next life, but that his uncreated energies or operations can be known both in this life and in the next, and convey to the Hesychast in this life and to the righteous in the next life a true spiritual knowledge of God. In Palamite theology, it is the uncreated energies of God that illumine the Hesychast who has been vouchsafed an experience of the Uncreated Light.

In 1341 the dispute came before a synod held at Constantinople and presided over by the Emperor Andronicus III; the synod, taking into account the regard in which the writings of the pseudo-Dionysius were held, condemned Barlaam, who recanted and returned to Calabria, afterwards becoming bishop in the Roman Catholic Church.

One of Barlaam's friends, Gregory Akindynos, who originally was also a friend of St Gregory Palamas, took up the controversy, which also played a role in the civil war between the supporters of John Cantacuzenus and John V Palaeologus. Three other synods on the subject were held, at the second of which the followers of Barlaam gained a brief victory. But in 1351 at a synod under the presidency of the Emperor John VI Cantacuzenus, Hesychast doctrine was established as the doctrine of the Orthodox Church.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/30/2010 11:37:59 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
36 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:46 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads