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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2010 2:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | Similtude:
The way I see it is this: God doesn't allow us to be tested above what we are able. At the time God allows us to be put in a situation where we have to make a judgment, all He expects is for us to be as intellectually honest as we can with the wisdom we have thus far. If scripture makes anything clear, it seems to me that one such thing is that God gives wisdom incrementally. He gives; if we use it, He gives more. If we don't use it, He takes away that which was given. He is faithful to only require as He has given.
That's a big deal, then. Because supposedly all Christians are given the Holy Spirit, which IS the Spirit of Wisdom. And it's our job to walk by that Spirit. For us to not use the wisdom we have is for us not to walk by the Spirit, as Paul advocates. 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2010 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | | Grrrrr...
I swear, yo. If Greg does a "Q & A" about this book, I'm gonna hammer the whole Ananias and Sapphira thing. It was the Spirit of the RISEN JESUS who took their lives!!!
How can he get AWAY from that??? 
Also, I'm gonna ask him straight out: Were the authors or redactors LYING about God opening the earth to swallow Korah or not?
I usually never go to the Q&As out of respect and not to throw mines in the water. But this one...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 8/14/2010 4:44:39 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2010 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg BETTA not have a Q&A on this. Imma eat his lunch!
And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?” And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Say to the congregation, Get away from the dwelling of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.”
...
And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. And all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up!” And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.
He'd have to say ALL this was made up. But if he does that...why believe anything else the OT has to say like...oh, I don't know...donkeys talking or axeheads floatin'! 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 8/14/2010 4:51:18 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2010 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord (That's the Lord JESUS, yo!!!)? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2010 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | D: And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.”
T: He's gonna say that Moses and Aaron were mistaken, or that some redactor writing years later made this up to make a point to his community, whatever. But God could not have said it if Jesus wouldn't have said it.
I would say this at the Q&A...
"Dr. Boyd, are you saying that the event of God opening the earth to swallow sinful people that is mentioned in Numbers AND Deuteronomy was completely 'made up' by the redactors and/or authors? to make a point to the faithful community?"
We'll see how the evangelicals in the crowd like that.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2010 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Ooh, ooh! I have an even better one...heh...2 Samuel 6:5-11
And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the Lord, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. And when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God struck him down there because of his error, and he died there beside the ark of God. And David was angry because the Lord had burst forth against Uzzah. And that place is called Perez-uzzah, to this day. And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and he said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” So David was not willing to take the ark of the Lord into the city of David. But David took it aside to the house of Obed-edom the Gittite. And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the Lord blessed Obed-edom and all his household.
Now THIS definitely looks like the Ananias/Sepphira-being-killed-by-the-Spirit-of-the-Risen-Jesus situation (ie death of person who went against God's commands, "great fear" among the remaining, etc).
Wait a sec...let me really make sure I have this straight. From Greg's perspective, Moses and Joshua (or the redactors) were WRONG that God did things like saying “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” (basically telling His people to separate the guilty for death) or stuff like that...but they were RIGHT about God HIMSELF killing people by earthquake and fire? Is that what he's gonna say? Or will he say they were wrong on that latter stuff too, because Jesus wouldn't kill people like that?
Is he serious? 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 8/14/2010 6:16:29 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/15/2010 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | |
This stuff is much easier if you consider the whole narrative context (whether or not the narrative is actually meant to be historical or not). You see the issue of the Nephilim arise prior to the Flood. That is the beginning of a pattern. That pattern is this: manifestations of angelic/spiritual evil become more conspicuous as humans become more depraved. The conquest of Canaan is one such point in history. God had specifically told Abraham that the reason why the entry of his seed into the land could not yet occur was because the iniquity of the Ammorites was NOT YET full. That filling of iniquity was associated with the Nephilim issue all over again. Indeed, Genesis tells us that the "sons of God" mingling with the daughters of men also happened "after that" (i.e., after the Flood). We have good reason to believe that the Canaanite episode of Nephilim was related to or was part of that subsequent event.
Thus, God was essentially killing two birds with one stone. He was using the entry of the Israelites into the land of Canaan to simultaneously purge Canaan from its pollutions that were bringing a degree of corruption to the earth that God had to stop if the creational project was going to be prolonged. As such, that violence has no implications on how humans were to behave theretofore or thereafter as a means of deterring evil. It was a special case, just like the Flood event--indeed, just like the event prophesied in 2nd Thessalonians, where, again, we see a human apostasy associated with greater than usual manifestations of angelic/spiritual evil, when the loving Jesus will DESTROY!!!
Greg is reacting to the Canaanite conquest as if it means more than it actually means. There is no difference in drowning babies in a Flood or killing them by the sword as far as theodicy is concerned. Thus, he has to get utterly radical, exegetically, to make his case. He is completely marginalizing himself with such extremism.
Post Edited (Similitude) : 8/15/2010 9:41:50 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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