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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Rob Bell a Universalist? | Forum Quick Jump
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|  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/7/2011 3:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | Martin Marty weighs in: Hell's Bell
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/7/2011 9:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/7/2011 10:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hopefully this will work as I'm doing this on my iPod. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_E._Marty Also, www.illuminos.com/
Marty is usually one of the bigwigs looked to concerning religion and culture. Even many evangelicals quote his stuff.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 3/7/2011 9:17:34 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/8/2011 12:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | In Marty's essay, he says there is a wide gap in the percentage of clergy who believe/preach ECT and their congregations who believe it. I understand God's people can be way off at times especially concerning othordoxy as it relates to orthopraxy, however some theologians must not have much faith in the faithful. This is something Mouw spoke about in "Consulting the Faithful.". There are some deep impulses at work on this question and they shouldn't be easily dismissed as if they have no relevance at all.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/8/2011 7:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | Just being honest here. You know, assuming the error of both UR and Calvinism (for the sake of argument), from my perspective at this point UR is a far less agregious and harmful belief than is Calvinism. My guess is that would be the view of the EO on it in general as well. Have some EO parishoner mention to a group of EO fathers that he's a universalist. Not much will happen. You'll probably find a father or two who agree with him. But have him deny libertarian freedom and start telling people God has unconditionally predetermined everything that happens and has predestined the vast majority of humanity to hell, that the work of Christ is limited in its scope, that grace is something God does here and there on occasion, and I'm guessing you won't be served communion.
In fact, I have run accross a couple of EO blogs that characterized Calvinism as heresy.
Tom
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/9/2011 4:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/13/2011 1:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | OK. Roger Olsen weighed in on Rob Bell's vid here. I also think this is pertinent to the discussion as well. It'a pretty much what underlies what's going on. Makes me wish I was in Britian.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/17/2011 3:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/17/2011 4:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | | In case you all missed it, Bell had a live Q&A session broadcast (couple days ago) live online. It was recorded and can be viewed here:
It's good. But I think Bell makes things difficult for himself by being too Socratic. Just boil is down for people and answer questions clearly, which he doesn't always do.
He's asked point blank, "Are you a universalist," and he answers, "No, not if by universalism you mean God sweeps [I'm paraphrasing now] everybody into heaven whether they want to or not."
Well, nobody believes in THAT version of UR Rob, come on. You KNOW what people are asking. It's OK to start by clarifying what you DON'T beleive. But he should move on and say, "But if you mean God pursues people until they freely choose; God never forecloses on the possibility, and eventually I think everybody will choose..." then you clearly ARE a unviersalist.
Tom
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/17/2011 7:35 PM (GMT -6) |   | Actually, I think Hick promotes the universalistic view that all will make it in regardless of what they believe and I understand Rob to be reacting against that as he wants evangelicals (in light of all the misinformation out there about what he's actually promoting) to know that that isn't what he is actually saying. But with you, I agree that he is being too Socratic. I put him in the "strongly hopeful" camp.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/17/2011 8:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | He says it right there...
"He (Rob Bell) is proposing that God’s love is so big that the invitation to God’s grace may extend into the next life so that all could be saved."
It's RIGHT THERE. God's grace "pursues" into the NEXT LIFE (probably ala something like unto post-mortem evangelism) so that all could be saved...meaning "God never forcloses on the possibility" for all to be saved. That's the only way that the sentence makes sense.
It's like he's saying this:
"The offer is always there, because Love Wins. (Love Never Fails?) I'm leaving it open whether or not people actually ever CHOOSE to be take God up on his offer or continuously endure the 'hellish state" of turning from God's offer of Love."
I could easily see Greg saying something like this. When he gets the guts. HA!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 3/17/2011 8:35:27 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/19/2011 9:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
This is probably the most confusing piece by Richard Mouw whom I usually like. Not only does Mouw believe that one can solidify unto irrevocable evil and inhumanity in hell (or here in which case they would essentially annihilate themselves--why doesn’t he promote annihilation in that case?) he also believes that Rob Bell’s orthodoxy is solid even though Rob Bell says that there are opportunities in the next life. Kinda confusing to me.
The Orthodoxy of Rob Bell
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/23/2011 8:02 PM (GMT -6) |   | Is it just me or does Rob Bell seem like he has to be on the defensive regarding not being a universalist? I know he is saying he doesn't believe in universalism and the book does not sell that but its like he says, "Oh, hey, no, no...I'm not a universalist nor do I promote universalism" as if it stands outside of orthodoxy or at least contemporary evangelicalism or else he'll really look bad and lose face. In other words, so what if he claimed to be a universalist?
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 3/28/2011 12:20 PM (GMT -6) |   | | I bought the audiobook version (in addition to the Kindle version), and then did some hacking to remove the DRM and save it as MP3 files.
I like this for filling my time as I commute.
Anyway, I'll share it here for a while:
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/28/2011 10:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | Finally my copy of Bell’s [i]Love Wins[/i] arrived and I finished it in a couple of hours. I won’t bore you with a longwinded critique. I got this, OK? Couple of comments.
First, by all means get the book. If you can borrow it and save yourself the money, even better. It won’t be a book you read twice. Trust me. But if you get a copy, just read from the middle of page 103 to the middle of page 111. That’s pretty much the core of the core. Trust me. You won’t be missing anything crucial. Read those pages and you’ll know what Bell is trying to say. If you want a bit more, there are other interesting things he says from the middle of page 173 to the bottom of page 177. That’s it. Trust me. And there is NOTHING new in the book. But Bell tells you that up front.
Here’s what Bell essentially wants to say:
On pages 103-111 it’s this: God’s love will never stop pursuing those in hell. They can renew their rejection of God if that’s what they want. We’re THAT free. But God is free to continue to pursue us. As long as it takes, God will pursue us until we are all his. How long? Don’t know. Doesn’t matter. As long as people are not locked in irrevocable torture, it doesn’t matter. There's always hope, and that is Bell's point. Bell doesn’t say God draws a line in the sand and eventually says, “Enough is enough, I’m saving you whether you wanna be saved or not.” We can say ‘no’. But we’re also free to say ‘yes’. And that’s what’s important for Bell.
On pages 173-177 it’s this: Jesus doesn’t have to be known by name, race, or other historical particularities (lived in Palestine, was Jewish, died on a Roman cross, etc.) in order to be experienced in a ways that can and do redeem. When people embrace genuine repentance, faith, compassion, etc.—they’re embracing Jesus, for those virtues are the differentiated truth of Jesus. They’ll find out eventually what his name is; and if they’re repentance and sense of trust in ultimate truth is genuine, they won’t be surprised when they meet him.
The book is not that well-written. I’ve read Bell’s stuff before and was very impressed and inspired. This book left me underwhelmed. Greg Boyd called it “a bold, prophetic, and poetic masterpiece.” I’m very careful about disagreeing with Greg, but I gotta get him some new reading material. A masterpiece? I don't think so. The only masterpiece here is HarperCollins's marketting campaign!
I’ve read a good bit on universalism and this was the least compelling treatment I've read. KIXYTΘEMTA | | Back to Top | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/31/2011 4:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Jerry Walls speaks up today on facebook:
HELL? NO ONE WILL GO? BELL SAID SO?
I heard Rob Bell speak several years ago, and found him a winsome and engaging communicator. However, I had never read any of his books until now. But when people kept asking my opinion about his new one (presumably since I write about heaven, hell and other regions in the neighborhood), I thought maybe I should read it. When one of my best friends offered to have a copy sent to my door, well, that settled it.
Having now read the book, after thinking, reading and writing about these topics for over two decades, I must say I am rather surprised at the firestorm of controversy it has generated. In the preface, Bell writes with due modesty and candor: “I haven’t come up with a radical new teaching that’s any kind of departure from what’s been said an untold number of times” (p. x). And indeed, he has not. If I had read this book, blissfully unaware of all the internet wars, accusations of heresy and so on preceding its publication, I doubt if I would have given it a second thought. This is not intended as a negative comment, but merely as an observation that much of the book is simply rather elementary truth about the love and grace of God and the power and beauty of the Christian story.
I enjoyed reading this book in the same way I enjoyed hearing Bell speak. Indeed, the book has the feel of a sermon, or sermons of a good preacher who has a gift for turning a phrase, for injecting humor, and a good sense of timing in his delivery. Many of the lines are evocative, epigraphic and lyrical. Bell has a talent for stating basic truth in provocative and sometimes surprising ways and that makes for a fun ride, or read, as the case may be.
His first chapter is a rather entertaining critique of simplistic accounts of what is involved or required for being one of the fortunate few who will be saved. His second chapter is about heaven, and there his target is a one dimensional view of heaven, which focuses only on the life to come, ignoring the present aspects of heaven and how it changes life NOW.
Not infrequently Bell has a tendency to play to the gallery, and score easy points by depicting the worst of evangelical thought and practice. He sometimes reminds me of his forebear of an earlier generation, namely, Tony Compolo, who mastered the crowd pleasing “shame on those bad, bad Christians, but look at how great Jesus is” style of rhetoric.
Okay, but what about the universalism charge that had everyone fired up before the book ever saw the light of day? Well, we need to be clear on what we mean by universalism, as there are a range of positions that could be given that label. On one end of the spectrum is the view we can call “hopeful universalism,” which as the name suggests, is the stance of hoping and praying that universalism might turn out to be true. We can’t be sure it is, nor can we be sure it is not, but we should at least hope for it. Second, there is the view we might called “convinced universalism,” which is the view that everybody will in fact be saved. While the reality of human freedom makes it at least possible that some will not be saved, we can be pretty sure that as a matter of fact all will in fact repent in the end. Finally, there is the view we can call “necessary universalism,” which is the strongest position on the universalist scale. This is the view that the only position that is even consistent with God’s perfect love and power is universalism, so it is the only view that is even possibly true. This position has been defended with great sophistication in contemporary thought by the philosopher Thomas Talbott, and is the most interesting universalist option on the table (see the volume, Universal Salvation? The Current Debate, eds. Robin Parry and Chris Partridge).
While the latter two variations of universalism are certainly minority positions, and are arguably at odds with the broad consensus of Christian orthodoxy, the first version is often thought to be fully compatible with orthodoxy (I have critiqued and debated Talbott at length in my own work. See chapter 5 of Hell: The Logic of Damnation; see also my exchange with him in Religious Studies 40: 2004). Indeed, many Christians think it is incumbent upon us at least to hope for universalism.
Be that as it may, the only sense in which Bell is a universalist is the first of these options. While he points out that there are noted spokesmen for universalism in the history of theology, and he admits that it would make a “better story” if all ended up reconciled to God (110-111), he stops far short of saying he believes it must turn out this way, or even that he is confident that it will.
Bell makes it emphatically clear that love cannot be forced, that love can be rejected and perversely resisted, and if this is true now, it can be true in the life to come. This stubborn and harsh reality rules out any rosy or cheery confidence that all will be saved at the end of the day. He writes: “What we see in Jesus’ story about the rich man and Lazarus is an affirmation that there are all kinds of hells, because there are all kinds of ways to resist and reject all that is good and true and beautiful and human now, in this life, and so we can only assume we can do the same in the next” (p. 79; see also pp 72, 103-105, 113-114, 117, 177).
However, he also makes it unequivocally clear that he believes God sincerely loves every single person, and will give everyone every opportunity to accept his love and be saved, whether or not they have heard of Christ in this life, or accepted him in this life. And this, I suspect, is the real animus behind those who have such venom for this book. Calvinists and quasi-Calvinists who believe God’s love is only for his unconditionally elect, or who think there is something sentimental or mushy about a love that is extended equally to all persons, even if that means the chance to repent after death, will understandably hate this book. It is no surprise that from such quarters should come tweets saying “Farewell Rob Bell” though frankly, given the issue at stake, it might have been more apropos to have said “Go to hell Rob Bell”!
Again, there is nothing new or shocking here, except perhaps the fact that so many Christians are offended by such a picture of God’s love. After all, if God went to the expense of providing salvation for all persons (of course Calvinists dispute this, at least usually), why would he not want to make it genuinely and fully available to all? It is remarkable to me how many people believe God gives everyone at least some chance (perhaps small) to be saved, but stoutly resist the notion that he would, or perhaps even could, make it fully available so everyone has a full and fair chance to accept it. I have argued in my book on hell that God will indeed do so, that he will extend to all persons what I have called “optimal grace,” which roughly speaking, is whatever grace will make it most likely that they will freely accept it (see also chapter 3 of my book Heaven: The Logic of Eternal Joy; and CS Lewis and Francis Schaeffer, co-authored with Scott Burson, pp. 226-224).
Indeed, Bell’s position on these matters is very much like that of CS Lewis. It is telling that the only book on hell that he cites in his brief bibliography at the end is Lewis’s The Great Divorce. In short, evangelicals who readily embrace Lewis should be little disturbed by what Bell says in his book.
If there is anything to be concerned about here, it may that a book that is as lightweight as this one should cause such a furor in the Christian community. Again, I do not mean that as a putdown of Bell’s book. Rather, it is more a commentary on contemporary culture. And not just Christian culture, culture period. Christians are merely reflecting the larger culture in their reading and thinking habits.
But this is where the culture is. Guys like Bell understand this. Someone needs to communicate with them. So Bell should not be blamed for stepping up to the challenge.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/31/2011 10:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Let me be particular. Obviously the people who have demonic ideas are not our enemies. (We all struggle with sin...and we have no enemies, only neighbors to love, right?) At the same time, the idea that unconditional love can "give up" on someone because of faulty decisions they make or faulty attitudes they take on, or any type of harm to self or the other that they do...is making a logical inconsistency just as silly as saying that an omnipresent God is not in animal feces!
Unconditional love MEANS love not based upon any conditions on the part of those who receive the love. Period. Love that is truly unconditional cannot restrict itself from any being for any reason. It shines on EVERYBODY, like a Sun's rays...just and unjust. It cannot withhold forgiveness (Jesus' 70 X 7 teaching!). Love cannot close itself off to the "other"...because it takes on the other's joys and pains as if they were it's own. Love doesn't minimize and "write people off".
Love doesn't say things like "Farewell, Rob Bell" and mean it.
Yeah, I said it. God bless John Piper...but that particular action wasn't demonstrative of unconditional love on his part. Hey, Lord have mercy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 3/31/2011 10:45:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 3/31/2011 10:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | Nope. The real animus is what Walls says in the second last paragragh near the end: Christians are merely reflecting the larger culture in their reading and thinking habits. which fuels the bad theology which fuels the bad practices. There are many Christians who come from the traditional view of hell who have not connected the dots (theologically or otherwise) but still believe that God loves everyone and that we should love them. In other words they don't connect their theology and orthopraxy together. But I don't think there are theologians or Christians who actually "hate" the idea that God loves us so much that he would not give up on us. Of course, this is not exactly how Walls put it.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 4/1/2011 2:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | Also, I still don't know exactly what Piper meant by, "Farewell Rob Bell" so I'm not so sure Piper was "writing off" Rob Bell...in what sense? Is he writing Rob Bell off in the sense of his eternal destiny? Is he saying, "I give up on you. You are out of the fold. There's no hope for your coming back into true Church?" Of all the criticism I've seen on this, Doug Pagitt is the only one who attempts to explain what Piper ACTUALLY meant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx0JK8T0ZfU&feature=related
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/1/2011 8:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hmmm...Padgitt said "dastardly." Interesting choice of words.
At any rate, Padgitt seems to think that John Piper's tweet had a chiefly exclusionary intent. My personal thought was that John Piper was "writing off" Rob Bell in the sense of orthodoxy...and taking Bell seriously as such. The divisive nature of the tweet reverbrates in the furor surrounding it.
Who sows seeds of discord among the brothers? (We war not against flesh and blood...)
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/1/2011 8:20:42 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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