Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 7/21/2011 3:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

http://twofriarsandafool.com/2011/07/a-non-universal-story/

http://twofriarsandafool.com/2011/07/radical-continuity/

Daniel Kirk has a response to Richard Beck (whose starting post I didn’t link to). Essentially, Kirk makes two points. One has to do with how the story fits together. He speaks of a:

“continuity between this life and the next. And, the plea for universalism indicates a similar failure. The way the Christian story works, as all good stories do, is by a measure of continuity between one scene and the next – even when we recognize the presence of a hero who comes in and rescues people from what would otherwise be the natural course of their actions.”

In other words, the present with its “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” and “What we do in life echoes in eternity” should not be separated. For Kirk, at the end of the day, the

“…reason one why I am not a universalist is because the story indicates a continuity between this life and the next such that there are those who demonstrate themselves to be children of the kingdom and those who are demonstrating themselves to not be so (re)born.”

The second reason for his not being a universalist has to do with free will. For Kirk, those who want free will can’t have it both ways. He says:

“After asserting that everything is entirely up to us, that God would never force anyone to choose God or love God, in the end we are not willing to accept that there might be grave, even eternal consequences to this act of freedom. In the end, we are asking for God to overcome our freedom by a mighty act of universal election.”

In other words, the universalist wants free will but at the same time if things that we do now echo in eternity (such as not repenting and choosing against God), then:

“If we are going to so stridently insist on a God who is willing that his creatures choose or reject God in freedom, I think we need to have the courage to posit a God who is willing to live with the consequences of that freedom—a God who, in the end, is willing to say to us who have rejected God, ‘Your will be done.’”

Beck comes along and says that he has given up on free will because:

“as the years passed my confidence in free will eroded. I worried about moral luck and social location. More, my training in psychology exposed me to neuroscience, behavioral genetics, cognitive science, developmental psychology, and behavioral analysis. I eventually concluded that humans were not radically free.”

And as I’ve posted him here before, he speaks about how very few of us “rise” above to make radical changes in our lives (except for Oprah).

Of course I don’t buy into the fact that we can’t overcome especially given that it will be simply us and God (with no other “distractions”). But I don’t buy Kirk’s idea especially as it is conveyed via his freewill spiel. Look at the story of this guy and tell me that sin is not complex, difficult and web like.

http://www.wilsonstation.com/?p=4533


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 7/21/2011 3:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK...here. Let me just say it point blank. Is there ANY universalist who says that there are NOT "grave, even eternal consequences to this act of freedom?" If by eternal Kirk means "forever" then I would disagree with that. If by "eternal" he means "affects our relationship with God in eternity" in other words, if we move from "glory to glory" where we could have been at at one point in eternity (and we are not there now because of the decisions we have made in this life) is not where we should have been (we should have been further and deeper) then I could agree with that. And I don't see why, "What we do in life echoes in eternity" can't mean the second.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 7/22/2011 7:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is the way I know simplify things with the whole EUR thing, with respect to the significance of freedom via continuity of life/afterlife...

"Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’"
-Matthew 25:21

A king delights in a wise servant, but a shameful servant incurs his wrath.
-Proverbs 13:35

Even assuming that it's "overwhelmingly probably" that all sentient beings will eventually turn to God at some point in time in their existences, that does not mean that all people will hear Jesus say "Well done!" for their employment of their time on earth. Jesus loves ALL persons who have lived, wise or foolish...but that doesn't mean that Jesus gets maximal delight from lives wasted in foolishness. If it can be said that Jesus' affirmation (or lack thereof) for our earthly service is an eternal consequence to our choices--or our "leap of faith" rather--, then that would seem to be all the universalist would need to postulate.

The ONLY way that the non-universalist could have a problem with this would be to DEVALUE Jesus' affirmation in some kind of way. If they are smart, they wouldn't do that. ;-)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 7/22/2011 12:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

I don't see why there have to be eternal consequences for us for our volitional actions (in the desert sense) unless those actions cause eternal dissatisfaction for some other sentient being(s). But what would make us think the latter other than belief in the former? It seems circular.

Moral freedom implies post-mortem consequences and accountability given the fact that nothing even close to justice occurs in this life. But that's all we can say philosophically. We can't philosophically get to eternal consequences/accountability as far as I can tell.


 

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 7/22/2011 1:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your responses. I don't quite get what you meant in the first paragraph Jeff. Could you elaborate? Also, D, I take it that you are simply saying that the only eternal consequence there is is Jesus' affirmation or lack thereof. His lack of affirmation by no means implies non-universalism.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 7/22/2011 2:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
Also, D, I take it that you are simply saying that the only eternal consequence there is is Jesus' affirmation or lack thereof. His lack of affirmation by no means implies non-universalism.

Exactly. If the primary thing that non-universalists want is eternally lasting consequence for morally significant freedom that speaks of continuity between this life and the next, then THIS is all they should need.  To say otherwise is to say that having or not having Jesus' "Well done!"--basically Jesus' delight in his faithful servants--isn't sufficient enough of a consequence.  Good luck with them arguing THAT one... scool


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 7/22/2011 2:14:58 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 7/22/2011 3:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Brandon: I don't quite get what you meant in the first paragraph Jeff. Could you elaborate?

Jeff: Sure. One of your provided quotes reads:

“…reason one why I am not a universalist is because the story indicates a continuity between this life and the next such that there are those who demonstrate themselves to be children of the kingdom and those who are demonstrating themselves to not be so (re)born.”

I think we would all agree with that. But this doesn't imply that the accountability for not suffering with Christ volitionally (if we suffer with him, we shall reign with him) will be eternal. Even Christ's reign is said to be finite, for Paul says Christ will reign until ... Thus, if the reign (i.e., the kingdom mode of post-mortem joy) is finite, so might be the other accountability.

My conception of eternal life is a finite but age-abiding period of finite reward/punishment followed by a purely grace state of uninterrupted, joyful life with God which may involve different phases and which may not involve any reigning at all. What is paramount for the quality of eternal life with God is that such existence is joyful, not that it involves eternal reigning over something/someone.

In short, it is not necessarily true that reigning/kingdom life will BE eternal, even for those who are children of the kingdom. Yet the logic Kirk is trying to apply seems to work only if that is the case.

It seems to me what people tend to do is assume that the reward of children of the kingdom is eternal (rather than age-abiding) and then assume that punishment for the others, because of the use of similar greek terms for duration, is too. But there is no a priori reason to assume either reward or punishment need be eternal unless there is a way to wrongly-relate or rightly-relate such that we literally cause eternal diminishing or augmenting of satisfaction to God or some other sentient being by finite acts. Otherwise, where is the justice in eternal punishment? On the other hand, how can we even know a priori that we can eternally diminish the satisfaction of another sentient being?

The burden of proof is on them. We know scripture says all will bow the knee and confess with the tongue that Jesus is Lord. We have every reason to believe that the radical diminishing of epistemic distance will make a profound difference in the human ability to judge aright. The parable of the rich man and Larazus, e.g., indicates that the improvement in attitude and judgment following the diminishing of epistemic distance can be almost instantaneous for at least some cases.


 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 7/22/2011 4:08:02 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 7/23/2011 9:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In short, it doesn't follow that because we will live forever that all of that joyful experience is a reward for a finite set of finite acts. Thus, one has to show that to be true for Kirk's argument to avail. Indeed, how many people contend that very young infants that die will be with God forever? And yet, in what sense can we say the fellowship with God the infant will experience is a reward? A reward for what? Some things are just explicable by grace because God IS LOVE.


 

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:37 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads