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0CT0R0K
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | Since no one really goes to the apologetics board, I'm posting this here:
Cut straight to the chase. The actuality of "Christianity" is ultimately dependent on the existence of the "Abrahamic God". Any discussions of Christianity regarding Jesus are 100% irrelevant when you can prove that the biblical "god of Abraham" cannot exist.
Very briefly here's how you do that:
The Biblical "God" is defined, in the vaguest terms possible, as
1. Omnipotent
2. Omnicient
3. Infalible
Big problems
There are many irreconcilable conflicts that exist within and among the biblical definition of "god", the biblical definition of "man" and the relationship that exists between the two.
-Free Will-
Prophecy + infallibility completely negate Free Will
If the future is foreseen by "god" and "god" is infallible...then what has been foreseen HAS to happen...and NOTHING CONTRARY to that could happen, no one could "freely" choose to do anything other than what had been foreseen, and that is called predestination...the definitive opposite of free will.
-Evil-
First off it needs to be realized that "evil" doesn't actually exist...the term is purely subjective there is NOTHING that can be UNIVERSALY defined as "evil".
Secondly, the real problem with evil is that "god" experiences displeasure. The displeasure the biblical god experiences with its own creations completely negates its infallibility.
- Impossibility of the popular notions of the "soul" -
In what likeness of "god" were humans created? The answers to this question are usually the same type of attributes that are given to the "soul". The challenge: name one of these attributes that are not directly bound to and a result of the physical form.
Example: Love/emotions - These exist how? As a result of interactions. The interactions that that cause these emotions are a result of what? Our physical boundaries….get the idea?
Here are a few other quick retorts to things that some dumb ass Christian is sure to throw out during the evening:
Dumb idea – God exists outside or beyond the realm of “human logic”.
Reason it’s a dumb idea – What’s more logical?
a) Something that exists was created by a creator to serve a purpose and function
b) Something that exists materialized randomly and serves no purpose or function.
Ultimately the very concept of “god” is a product of the limitations of human logic, furthermore, anything that would exists outside the realm of human logic would effectively be “unknowable” to humans…”faith” would be reduced to agnosticism. This idea is contradictory to the very purpose for which the bible proposes “god” created humans.
Dumb idea – God exists outside of “time”
Reason it’s dumb – “time” doesn’t exist. It is just a system of measurement that we created to help us relate successive events.
There is NOTHING in biblical texts that suggest the successiveness of events is irrelevant to “god”…in fact they suggest the opposite (i.e. “plan of salvation”).
Also, this notion, depending on what ever moronic version is provided, can bring us back to the problems with the “future” and predestination nullifying free will.
Oh, and before I forget, no debate on the actuality of “Christianity” would be complete without an in depth discussion of the “Christ Myth” in general…that EVERYTHING from the virgin birth to the death and resurrection…and all that lies in between…is part of a classic mythological formula that precedes “Jesus” by thousands of years, and is embodied in many dozens of preceding pagan god men (like Siddhartha Buddha, Krishna, Mirtha, Mythos, Horus/Osiris, Pythagoras, blah blah…do yourself a favor and look it up).
Bottom line – Overwhelmingly religion divides more than it unites, it fuels prejudice, hatred and intolerance…oh yeah, and it’s not real either.
There are two separate categories of Christians: Willfully Ignorant and Naturally Ignorant people….probably about a straight 50/50 split.
Willfully ignorant Christians are the people who otherwise are normal intelligent knowledgeable humans, but purposely and actively avoid exposure to or contemplation of the obvious fatal flaws in their religion. The typical reasons for this are early indoctrination, social taboo, and psychological codependency issues.
The naturally ignorant Christians are the ones who, for whatever reason, have simply never been exposed to ideas contrary to their own. There are far more of these people than it is popularly believed.
What do you say to that?
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | “it needs to be realized that "evil" doesn't actually exist...the term is purely subjective there is NOTHING that can be UNIVERSALY defined as "evil".”
Please explain how…
Evil doesn’t actually exist.
Nothing can be universally defined as evil.
I don’t understand this.
“Example: Love/emotions - These exist how? As a result of interactions. The interactions that that cause these emotions are a result of what? Our physical boundaries….get the idea?”
If love requires a physical form to exist then how can it be possible to “love God” since we can neither see Him or tough Him?
“Dumb idea – God exists outside of “time”
Reason it’s dumb – “time” doesn’t exist. It is just a system of measurement that we created to help us relate successive events.”
So time doesn’t exist! So what! It’s not such a dumb idea that we are limited by a sequence of the physical world. It is not hard to believe that something exists beyond our limitations and that God is there.
“There is NOTHING in biblical texts that suggest the successiveness of events is irrelevant to “god”…in fact they suggest the opposite (i.e. “plan of salvation”).”
I don’t know what Bible you are reading from but I don’t read “plan of salvation anywhere.
The story that you call the “Christ Myth” is actually taken from eye witness accounts. There are many forms of textual criticism that overwhelmingly support that the texts are true and there are cross references with other texts as well.
“Bottom line – Overwhelmingly religion divides more than it unites, it fuels prejudice, hatred and intolerance…oh yeah, and it’s not real either.”
I agree with you that religion divides, and it’s not always a good thing. But what is a good thing is that God will divide the righteous from the wicked. Jesus stated that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That means that it doesn’t matter what logic you and I follow, if we reject Him then He, not any religion, but He will reject you. Jesus is not appropriate for any Disney fairy tale. But he is real. I can’t reveal that to you. Only the Holy Spirit can.
By your logic there is a single, right path and it is found by being perfect in knowledge and reason. I hope that you find your way.
This is just a start but I am happy to give my best in response (but please allow me to take some time since I am finishing school and currently moving).
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Love/Emotions:
Are you saying that love doesn't exist beyond the physical? Please help me out with this one too. I loved my wife when she lived in Saipan for two years. I could talk to her once or twice a week, but the physical dissonance did not diminish my love for her. I don't understand you.
As I waited and longed for her, with the hope that all our plans would work out and we would be married, I continued to grow more and more fond of her on a daily basis. It was the hope, not the physical activity that fueled my love for her.
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry,
Octorok, I realized that this probably isn't you but that I am interacting with something that you copied and pasted. What is this from?
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/14/2004 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Aside from a few points your friend makes that I disagree with, I basically agree with what he says. The god whose existence he sets out to disprove doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean there isn't a different sort of God.
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/15/2004 4:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, the first problem with this opening argument Octorok has posted is that one does not have to prove the existence of god before concluding anything else about god, particularly, the God of Christianity. Just because someone says a discussion about god is impossible--excluding, therefore, anything and any discussion about Jesus--before the existence of god is proven is an opinion, but certainly not fact.
The life, death, and evidence for the resurrection of Jesus the Christ is by far the prime issue for the Christian to present in regard to the existence of God. The life and death of Jesus are excepted by even the most cynical and atheistic of scholars--the resurection, though? Well, there's where the real meat of the issue resides and where the twists and turns take place. Study the evidence for the resurrection and let that be the driving force for a discussion of God's existence: If Christ rose, that's the end of the discussion about whether God exists or not, particularly in view of what Jesus taught about God and in that He proclaimed Himself to be this very God. And it is at this point the twists and turns of rebuttle will be found; trying to compromise and discredit the reliability of the NT documents; trying to discredit the authors and content (as myth or late-developed stories) of the NT, particularly the gospel accounts. That's all that's left for the skeptic to do, because if the NT docs are reliable, and their contents trustworthy as to the proclamation they make, the argument for the existence of God is over. Two birds killed with one stone.
The facts are that any discussion about the Christian God is not confined to a vacuum; it is, and always has been, central around the life, death and, namely, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but there are many other avenues to pursue with regard to proving the existence of God. If a skeptic cannot deal with this and will not discuss the existence of god from these frameworks, then that skeptic is not yet seeing that he cannot make up the rules about how to determine if god exists; he must be willing to consider all of the evidence presented to him or no fruitful conversation can take place.
Starkman
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