Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 5:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This quote is for Tom when he gets back to the Trinity, and the immanent and economic terms.

(I get tricked because it is the "essential" versus the "immanent" that I want to distinguish. Meyendorff qualifies that we only know the immanent from what is revealed in the economy--so I suppose that you might say that the economy is the event that make the immanent evident; while the essential is still unknown. And as Tom insists, nothing in the economy can contradict the immanent Trinity.)

HERE IS SOMETHING FOR YOU, TOM.

FOR LATER!



quote:
BYZANTINE THE0LOGY:
HISTORICAL TRENDS AND DOCTRINAL THEMES
by John Meyendorff
13--The Holy Spirit,
and 14--The Triune God




By accepting Nicaea, the Cappadocian Fathers eliminated the ontological subordinationism of Origen and Arius, but they preserved indeed, together with their understanding of hypostatic life, a Biblical and Orthodox sub­ordinationism, maintaining the personal identity of the Father as the ulti­mate origin of all divine being and action: "The three [are] one God when contemplated together; each [is] God because [they are] consub­stantial; the three [are] one God because of the monarchy [of the Fa­ther]." Developing his well-known doctrine of the divine image in man, Gregory of Nyssa defines one aspect of human personal existence which is clearly different from that of God: each human person possesses the power of reproducing himself, while, in God, there is only "one and the same Person of the Father from whom the Son is born and the Spirit proceeds," Thus, the human race is in a constant process of fragmentation, and can recover its unity only through adoption by the Father in Christ-i.e., by becoming children of the one single hypostasis which generates without fragmenting, or multiplying. The origin of unity in the Trinity, the Father restores the unity of creation by adopting humanity in His Son, the New Adam, in whom humanity is "recapitulated" through the activity of the Spirit.

Not an abstract intellectual speculation, the doctrine of the Trinity stands at the very center of Byzantine religious experience: the immanent Trinity manifests itself as the "economic" Trinity, i.e., the saving revelation of God in history. This is made particularly clear in the liturgy, especially in the Eucharistic canon. As a solemn prayer to the Father by the adopted human community, united in the incarnate Son and invoking the Spirit, the Eucharist is indeed the sacrament of divine unity being bestowed upon men. The same Trinitarian reality is expressed in innumerable hymns, scattered throughout the Byzantine liturgical cycles. Here is a solemn hymn of Pentecost, attributed to the emperor-poet Leo vi (886-912), and con­stituting a variation on the famous Trisagion:

    Come, 0 peoples, let us venerate the tri-hypostatic Deity,
    The Son in the Father, with the Holy Spirit.
    For before time the Father generated a Son, sharing His eternity and His Throne;
    And the Holy Spirit was in the Father, glorified together with the Son. One Power, One Essence, One Deity, whom we all venerate and say:
    Holy God, who created all things through the Son, with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit;
    Holy Mighty, through whom we knew the Father and the Holy Spirit
    dwelt in the world;
    Holy Immortal, the Spirit Comforter, who proceeds from the Father and
    abides in the Son, Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.


In the classical Latin Trinitarian doctrine, "Father, Son, and Spirit are only 'relatively' distinct." Whatever the interpretation given to the idea of "relation" implied in this statement, it is clear that Western thought recognized the ontological primacy of essential unity over personal diversity in God; that is, that God is essentially one, except in the divine Persons, who are denned in terms of relations. In Byzantine thought, however-to use an expression from Maximus the Confessor-"God is identically monad and triad," and there is probably a tendency in both worship and philo­sophical formulations (as distinct from doctrinal statements) to give a certain pre-eminence to the personal diversity over essential unity. A refer­ence to the Nicaean "consubstantial" was the Byzantine response to the accusation of "tritheism."

This reference, however, could not be decisive in itself, simply because Greek patristic thought, and particularly that of the Cappadocians, always presupposed the starting point of apophatic theology: that God's being and, consequently, the ultimate meaning of hypostatic relations were understood to be totally above comprehension, definition, or argument. The very no­tion of God's being both Unity and Trinity was a revelation illustrating this incomprehensibility; for no reality, accessible to the mind, could be both "one" and "three." As Vladimir Lossky puts it: "the Incomprehensible reveals Himself in the very fact of His being incomprehensible, for His incomprehensibility is rooted in the fact that God is not only Nature but also Three Persons."

The knowledge of God is therefore possible only inasmuch as He re­veals Himself, inasmuch as the immanent Trinity manifests itself in the "economy" of salvation, inasmuch as the transcendent acts on the immanent level. It is in the fundamental oneness of these "acts" or "energies" of God that the Greek Fathers, particularly Basil and Gregory of Nyssa, discover the decisive and existential sign of the unity of God's essence. Basil's well-known argument in favor of the divinity of the Spirit is that He has the same "energy" as the Father and the Son. Similarly, Gregory of Nyssa proves the essential unity of Father, Son, and Spirit from the unity of their operation. This argument also fits into the context of the Cap­padocians' polemics against Eunomius, who affirmed the possibility of knowing God's essence; no knowledge concerning God, they asserted, was possible, except from His "energies." The "economic" Trinity, re­vealed in God's action in the world, is, therefore, the only possible basis for affirming that God is indeed, paradoxically and incomprehensibly, a transcendent and immanent Trinity. Gregory of Nyssa's doctrine of the "energies" is well described by G. L. Prestige:

    In men . . . , in spite of the solidarity of the whole race, each individual acts separately, so that it is proper to regard them as many. This is not so . . . with God. The Father never acts independently of the Son, nor the Son of the Spirit. Divine action . . . always begins from the Father, pro­ceeds through the Son, and is completed in the Holy Spirit; there is no such thing as a separate individual operation of any Person; the energy invariably passes through the three, though the effect is not three actions but one.


==========================


AND IT "MATTERS" HERE:


==========================




'"The Palamite formulations of the fourteenth century were preceded by theological developments which dealt with the same triple distinction. In 1156 and 1157, two local councils held in Constantinople debated the prob­lem whether the sacrifice of Christ, in both its historical and its Eucharisdc dimensions, was offered to the Father alone, or to the Holy Trinity. Soteri-chos, a theologian, was condemned because he held that the acts of offering and of receiving constituted the hypostatic characteristics of the Son and the Father respectively, an opinion the councils considered to be a confusion between the "immanent" and the "economic" Trinity, or between the hypo-static characteristics and "energies." And, indeed, the Byzantine liturgies of Basil and of John Chrysostom include, at the offertory, a prayer addressed to Christ: "For it is you who offer and are offered, who receive and are yourself received." The mystery of the hypostatic life, as it is revealed in the Incarnation and in the act of redemption, is also expressed in a Byzan­tine Easter troparion (repeated by the priest during the offertory, at the Eucharist): "0 Christ undescribable! You filled all things: bodily in the grave, in Hades with your soul as God, in Paradise with the thief; you also sat on the divine throne with the Father and the Spirit."

Therefore, even if the Father alone is the addressee of the Eucharistic prayer, the act of "receiving" the sacrifice is a Trinitarian act, as are all the divine acts ad extra. The mystery of the Incarnation, however, consists in the fact that the divine hypostasis of the Logos assumed also the role of offering, bringing humanity with itself to the throne of the Father. The Eucharistic sacrifice is precisely this offering, accomplished in the body of Christ, where human nature is penetrated with divine energy, assumed as it is by the hypostasis of the Logos.

The hypostatic, personal existence implies an "openness," which makes it possible for the incarnate Logos to "offer" and to "receive," to be man and God, and to remain, with the Father and the Spirit, the "actor" of the "energies" characterizing divine nature.

===================


Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 7:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Looking through Zizioulas' second chapter I see something relevant to why Rahner's "immanent IS economic" should be taken as a simile. It has to do with these two things: participation and communion. With repset to those two what God does and what we do is not symetical with what God does. WE can participate in the communion of the Trinity, but God does not participate in us. God has communion with us and with God. (I lost which page--sorry.)

Thinking about that it occurs to me that while economic and immanent are similar--worthy of a simile--WE participate in the economy and not the immanent trinity.

I feel like I'm messing this up a bit. But I hope this is a clue to why the distinction will never evaporate. With respect to "within God" immanent and economic are "IS." But with respect to us, they are different aspect of the same thing. (I guess...Researching)
Back to Top
 

John Earp
Registered Member


Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 8:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(PoW's alter-egos talk amongst themselves).
Back to Top
 

pen-name
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 6
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 9:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi, John.
Back to Top
 

feelinahole
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Like I said, it's an enclosed system.
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 1:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi, Harold.
Back to Top
 

feelinahole
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
 
   Posted 4/19/2004 5:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thats what they call me...(if its not foul, that isEyebrow).
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/20/2004 1:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by echo

This quote is for Tom when he gets back to the Trinity, and the immanent and economic terms.

(I get tricked because it is the "essential" versus the "immanent" that I want to distinguish. Meyendorff qualifies that we only know the immanent from what is revealed in the economy--so I suppose that you might say that the economy is the event that make the immanent evident; while the essential is still unknown. And as Tom insists, nothing in the economy can contradict the immanent Trinity.)

HERE IS SOMETHING FOR YOU, TOM.

FOR LATER!



quote:
BYZANTINE THE0LOGY:
HISTORICAL TRENDS AND DOCTRINAL THEMES
by John Meyendorff
13--The Holy Spirit,
and 14--The Triune God




By accepting Nicaea, the Cappadocian Fathers eliminated the ontological subordinationism of Origen and Arius, but they preserved indeed, together with their understanding of hypostatic life, a Biblical and Orthodox sub­ordinationism, maintaining the personal identity of the Father as the ulti­mate origin of all divine being and action: "The three [are] one God when contemplated together; each [is] God because [they are] consub­stantial; the three [are] one God because of the monarchy [of the Fa­ther]." Developing his well-known doctrine of the divine image in man, Gregory of Nyssa defines one aspect of human personal existence which is clearly different from that of God: each human person possesses the power of reproducing himself, while, in God, there is only "one and the same Person of the Father from whom the Son is born and the Spirit proceeds," Thus, the human race is in a constant process of fragmentation, and can recover its unity only through adoption by the Father in Christ-i.e., by becoming children of the one single hypostasis which generates without fragmenting, or multiplying. The origin of unity in the Trinity, the Father restores the unity of creation by adopting humanity in His Son, the New Adam, in whom humanity is "recapitulated" through the activity of the Spirit.

Not an abstract intellectual speculation, the doctrine of the Trinity stands at the very center of Byzantine religious experience: the immanent Trinity manifests itself as the "economic" Trinity, i.e., the saving revelation of God in history. This is made particularly clear in the liturgy, especially in the Eucharistic canon. As a solemn prayer to the Father by the adopted human community, united in the incarnate Son and invoking the Spirit, the Eucharist is indeed the sacrament of divine unity being bestowed upon men. The same Trinitarian reality is expressed in innumerable hymns, scattered throughout the Byzantine liturgical cycles. Here is a solemn hymn of Pentecost, attributed to the emperor-poet Leo vi (886-912), and con­stituting a variation on the famous Trisagion:

    Come, 0 peoples, let us venerate the tri-hypostatic Deity,
    The Son in the Father, with the Holy Spirit.
    For before time the Father generated a Son, sharing His eternity and His Throne;
    And the Holy Spirit was in the Father, glorified together with the Son. One Power, One Essence, One Deity, whom we all venerate and say:
    Holy God, who created all things through the Son, with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit;
    Holy Mighty, through whom we knew the Father and the Holy Spirit
    dwelt in the world;
    Holy Immortal, the Spirit Comforter, who proceeds from the Father and
    abides in the Son, Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.


In the classical Latin Trinitarian doctrine, "Father, Son, and Spirit are only 'relatively' distinct." Whatever the interpretation given to the idea of "relation" implied in this statement, it is clear that Western thought recognized the ontological primacy of essential unity over personal diversity in God; that is, that God is essentially one, except in the divine Persons, who are denned in terms of relations. In Byzantine thought, however-to use an expression from Maximus the Confessor-"God is identically monad and triad," and there is probably a tendency in both worship and philo­sophical formulations (as distinct from doctrinal statements) to give a certain pre-eminence to the personal diversity over essential unity. A refer­ence to the Nicaean "consubstantial" was the Byzantine response to the accusation of "tritheism."

This reference, however, could not be decisive in itself, simply because Greek patristic thought, and particularly that of the Cappadocians, always presupposed the starting point of apophatic theology: that God's being and, consequently, the ultimate meaning of hypostatic relations were understood to be totally above comprehension, definition, or argument. The very no­tion of God's being both Unity and Trinity was a revelation illustrating this incomprehensibility; for no reality, accessible to the mind, could be both "one" and "three." As Vladimir Lossky puts it: "the Incomprehensible reveals Himself in the very fact of His being incomprehensible, for His incomprehensibility is rooted in the fact that God is not only Nature but also Three Persons."

The knowledge of God is therefore possible only inasmuch as He re­veals Himself, inasmuch as the immanent Trinity manifests itself in the "economy" of salvation, inasmuch as the transcendent acts on the immanent level. It is in the fundamental oneness of these "acts" or "energies" of God that the Greek Fathers, particularly Basil and Gregory of Nyssa, discover the decisive and existential sign of the unity of God's essence. Basil's well-known argument in favor of the divinity of the Spirit is that He has the same "energy" as the Father and the Son. Similarly, Gregory of Nyssa proves the essential unity of Father, Son, and Spirit from the unity of their operation. This argument also fits into the context of the Cap­padocians' polemics against Eunomius, who affirmed the possibility of knowing God's essence; no knowledge concerning God, they asserted, was possible, except from His "energies." The "economic" Trinity, re­vealed in God's action in the world, is, therefore, the only possible basis for affirming that God is indeed, paradoxically and incomprehensibly, a transcendent and immanent Trinity. Gregory of Nyssa's doctrine of the "energies" is well described by G. L. Prestige:

    In men . . . , in spite of the solidarity of the whole race, each individual acts separately, so that it is proper to regard them as many. This is not so . . . with God. The Father never acts independently of the Son, nor the Son of the Spirit. Divine action . . . always begins from the Father, pro­ceeds through the Son, and is completed in the Holy Spirit; there is no such thing as a separate individual operation of any Person; the energy invariably passes through the three, though the effect is not three actions but one.


==========================


AND IT "MATTERS" HERE:


==========================




'"The Palamite formulations of the fourteenth century were preceded by theological developments which dealt with the same triple distinction. In 1156 and 1157, two local councils held in Constantinople debated the prob­lem whether the sacrifice of Christ, in both its historical and its Eucharisdc dimensions, was offered to the Father alone, or to the Holy Trinity. Soteri-chos, a theologian, was condemned because he held that the acts of offering and of receiving constituted the hypostatic characteristics of the Son and the Father respectively, an opinion the councils considered to be a confusion between the "immanent" and the "economic" Trinity, or between the hypo-static characteristics and "energies." And, indeed, the Byzantine liturgies of Basil and of John Chrysostom include, at the offertory, a prayer addressed to Christ: "For it is you who offer and are offered, who receive and are yourself received." The mystery of the hypostatic life, as it is revealed in the Incarnation and in the act of redemption, is also expressed in a Byzan­tine Easter troparion (repeated by the priest during the offertory, at the Eucharist): "0 Christ undescribable! You filled all things: bodily in the grave, in Hades with your soul as God, in Paradise with the thief; you also sat on the divine throne with the Father and the Spirit."

Therefore, even if the Father alone is the addressee of the Eucharistic prayer, the act of "receiving" the sacrifice is a Trinitarian act, as are all the divine acts ad extra. The mystery of the Incarnation, however, consists in the fact that the divine hypostasis of the Logos assumed also the role of offering, bringing humanity with itself to the throne of the Father. The Eucharistic sacrifice is precisely this offering, accomplished in the body of Christ, where human nature is penetrated with divine energy, assumed as it is by the hypostasis of the Logos.

The hypostatic, personal existence implies an "openness," which makes it possible for the incarnate Logos to "offer" and to "receive," to be man and God, and to remain, with the Father and the Spirit, the "actor" of the "energies" characterizing divine nature.

===================




Back to Top
 

Starkman
Registered Member




Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
 
   Posted 4/21/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Way cool, the three paragraphs under AND IT "MATTERS" HERE:

Definitely!

Starkman
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 4:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW-

Thanks for the post by Meyendorff. It’s difficult to judge a person’s ideas based on such a small slice of his writing, but I’ll just respond a bit.

Let me say first that I cannot with integrity affirm what is to me self-contradictory. I can’t do this because I’m unable to relate meaningfully to what I also recognize to be self-contradictory. And I can’t relate meaningfully to what I recognize as self-contradictory because I cannot ascribe meaning to it. So long as the church presents to me a doctrine of the Trinity which, correctly understood, affirms a contradiction, I have to deny it. Affirming it would be a meaningless act.

There’s a difference between submerging an empty glass into the ocean and then maintaining on the one hand that the essence of the ocean is in the glass though all the ocean is not comprehended by the glass and claiming on the other hand that since the entire ocean isn’t in the glass that what the ocean essentially is can’t therefore be in the glass or known to the glass.

PoW: I get tricked because it is the “essential” versus the “immanent” that I want to distinguish.

Tom: Why “versus” at all? What is it that tells you these must even be distinguished? Tradition? Liturgy? A long line of theologians who distinguished between them? I can more easily believe they were all wrong than I can believe (at this point) that the distinction exists.

PoW: As Tom insists, nothing in the economy can contradict the immanent Trinity.

Tom: Actually, I’m insisting that nothing about what God reveals (whether you call it economy, immanent, or energies) suggests that he’s “essentially” any different that what he reveals, in which case there IS NO distinction to be made between economy/immanency/energies and God’s essence.

It’s pointless. We make a distinction between immanent (revealed in the economy) VERSUS essence, insist that the essence remains utterly unknown, but then add that there’s no contradiction between the two. How in the world would we know there’s no contradiction if the essence is unknown? You’d have to know something about the essence itself to make any claim whatsoever about relations that obtain between essence and anything else. The whole confusion is introduced by the unfounded assumption that we must make the distinction at all.

Perhaps East and West are both wrong. West begins with unity of essence and moves on to personal diversity. East moves in the opposite direction. Let’s not start with one or the other. Let’s start with the one triune God but without claiming (for it would be meaningless to do so) that God is one in the sense in which he is tree and three in the sense in which he is one. Maximus the Confessor claimed “God is identically monad and triad,” but I can’t make sense of this. It looks like a contradiction to me. I don’t know what it means.

Doxology doesn’t amount to offering up contradictions to God. We can worship what is greater than us and what our minds cannot comprehend, but contradictions are not greater than us, for no REAL relation exists between what not meaningful and anything else. Anything meaningful is, I suppose, greater than a contradiction. Meaning is greater than meaninglessness. “God is an evil tyrant” is in a sense greater than “God is one in the sense he is three and three in the sense that he’s one.” At least the former actually says something meaningful.

Cappadocian polemics argued that “no knowledge concerning God was possible except from his ‘energies’” against Eunomius who “affirmed the possibility of knowing God’s essence.” But they don’t disprove Eunomius. All they prove is that knowledge of God must be mediated via revelation (= God must reveal himself to us for us to know anything about him), and this doesn’t disprove Eunomius. THAT knowledge of God must be revealed to us cannot itself prove that God’s essence is unknown. On the contrary, if God “reveals” then we ought to assume he reveals what he is, and what else is he but what he essentially is? What else does he have to REveal, UNcover about himself? Why in the world would we assume anything else?

Yes, yes, we don’t sit on the inside of God and observe him from THAT perspective. The East wasted a lot of manpower if this is all they wanted to say. I haven’t had coffee with Eunomius yet, but I doubt that by “knowing God’s essence” he meant we can know God from the inside out as God knows himself. But this applies equally to our knowledge of EVERYTHING ontologically distinct from ourselves and applies to God’s knowledge of everything ontologically distinct from himself as well. So this is all beside the point. None of it means we don’t know who another person “essentially” is if they truthfully reveal themselves to us. We would never go around claiming we know only another person’s “energies” and can know nothing of their “essence” and use this distinction as a basis upon which to make claims one way or the other about the person. And when it comes to God we can be confident that it is who he essentially is that is revealed, for God cannot reveal who and what he is not. When a person reveals what she is not to others, she’s lying, in which case what she actually reveals is something other than what she intended, namely, that she is a liar.

To “H” “E” double hockey sticks Wink with the distinction between God’s essence and energies, except in the same sense we recognize it in all our relations with other persons which renders the distinction as a theological tool for talking about God useless. God ad intra versus God ad extra reduces ultimately to God versus God, and I wouldn’t affirm that.

Tom Borg1
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 4:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's see:

Selah posts "Women" and I think of Animal's grunt "Woman, Woman, Woman."

Somebody posts "Boyd's creatio ex mente dei" and I think "Boyd's excrement day."

Somebody posts "Tom's Trinity Tuck-away" and I think of a three-fold treatment for hemorrhoids.

I am one sick cookie.

Tom
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 4:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: Looking through Zizioulas' second chapter I see something relevant to why Rahner's "immanent IS economic" should be taken as a simile. It has to do with these two things: participation and communion. With repset to those two what God does and what we do is not symetical with what God does. WE can participate in the communion of the Trinity, but God does not participate in us. God has communion with us and with God. (I lost which page--sorry.)

Thinking about that it occurs to me that while economic and immanent are similar--worthy of a simile--WE participate in the economy and not the immanent trinity.

I feel like I'm messing this up a bit. But I hope this is a clue to why the distinction will never evaporate. With respect to "within God" immanent and economic are "IS." But with respect to us, they are different aspect of the same thing.

Tom: I didn’t understand a single word of what you said. Not a word.
Back to Top
 

Laika
Registered Member




Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 5:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by TGB

Let's see:

Selah posts "Women" and I think of Animal's grunt "Woman, Woman, Woman."

Somebody posts "Boyd's creatio ex mente dei" and I think "Boyd's excrement day."

Somebody posts "Tom's Trinity Tuck-away" and I think of a three-fold treatment for hemorrhoids.

I am one sick cookie.


That's it, Tom, we're cutting you off.




inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 7:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doc is the guy top center way in the back with the party hat on.

I'm being manhandled by ? Who are the two guys? Who's the cute blonde?

SPRINGS!
Back to Top
 

Laika
Registered Member




Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 7:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by TGB

Doc is the guy top center way in the back with the party hat on.

I'm being manhandled by ? Who are the two guys? Who's the cute blonde?

SPRINGS!


Well, since we've never heard iconoclast sing, we'll give him the part of the other guy. That leaves the Bing spot still open.



inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 11:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I read ALL of what TGB posted.

There are a few things that I could pull out that would make for peaceful conversation that would yeild fruit.

But Tom was throwing everything he had, all at the same time.

I think its better to wait for another time.

PoW

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/22/2004 11:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom did say: "Perhaps East and West are both wrong. West begins with unity of essence and moves on to personal diversity. East moves in the opposite direction."

Perhaps, Tom, when you go through the introduction of "Being..." you will notice his judgement that West and East need each other.
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/23/2004 4:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
God has no being apart from communion. (John Zizioulas)

www.atf.org.au/papers/essays/trinity.asp
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/24/2004 4:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by TGB

PoW: Looking through Zizioulas' second chapter I see something relevant to why Rahner's "immanent IS economic" should be taken as a simile. It has to do with these two things: participation and communion. With repset to those two what God does and what we do is not symetical with what God does. WE can participate in the communion of the Trinity, but God does not participate in us. God has communion with us and with God. (I lost which page--sorry.)

Thinking about that it occurs to me that while economic and immanent are similar--worthy of a simile--WE participate in the economy and not the immanent trinity.

I feel like I'm messing this up a bit. But I hope this is a clue to why the distinction will never evaporate. With respect to "within God" immanent and economic are "IS." But with respect to us, they are different aspect of the same thing.

Tom: I didn’t understand a single word of what you said. Not a word.


I'll TRY. Perhaps simile has a shade of meaning different from what I think it does? But I'll try!

You've repeated something about essential and economic from Rahner a few times. Good. But I don't think Karl R. is trying to just come up with a theory of the Trinity that he likes more, or is logically beautiful. I perceive that for Rahner THIS MATTERS for some reason.

To guess why, I'd look at what else he's doing!

Rahner has repared a hemorage introduced into RCC by Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas' effort to honor the trandscendence of God resulted in his saying that God only deals with people via "created grace." Like I say: this was a mess, and had bad reprocussions; and Rahner has done something about it. Rahner has introduced the notion, that in order to bridge the gap between God and man, God instead gives a divine grace (I'm thinking of hot-pad mits as an analogy.) that adjusts us to be able to be receptive to the very essence of God. Aquinas may or may not have liked that. Perhaps his idea grew legs--as historical ideas do--and followed its own crooked path; I don't know. But Rahner's notion is definitely more helpful. I bet you know at least "of" Gregory Palamas and Barlaam: Barlaam saying that we can't have a personal relationship with God--only an indirect one; while Palamas says that the "divine uncreated energies" of God are part of our personal relationship with God. With Rahner around back then there would have not been (IMHO) enough of a flap to flap about. But at the time lots was at stake. So Rahner is very, very important on the contemporary RCC scene, and outside of Catholicism too.

BUT, then, WHY is this important. This "essential is economic is essential..." Is this, then, based on what I've shared above, just a "theory" for something logically palatable. No way Jose!

So I called it a "simile." And I think that's not too bad a way to introduce it; whether technically a simile or not--I'm betting it is!


With respect to our salvation -- our being encorporated into the life of the Trinity, escaping corruption and death, receiving a visio nof the Truth -- in that way either Rahner of Palamas seems to work fine. Either it is God-directly (Palamas) or God-directly on new-receptors (Rahner). Either way, either the economy is the the essence received in a special way, or the economy is God's self ekstatically given. Either way, what we receive is God. Life. Truth. Redemption.

This is not a theory of the Trinity. Its about salvation, and relationship.
Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:48 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads