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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 2/24/2004 1:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | 1Cr 12:11gives a proper focus: the gifts are given at the Spirit's prerogative, and not always given according to the criteria we would choose.
Don't assume that giftedness equals maturity.
Never forget the Holy Spirit's goal: not to amaze or confuse, but to build the fruit of the Spirit; and he will use or not use any gift He thinks right towards that end.
Though they are given as the Spirit wills, they still must be received with faith by the believer; and the receiving and exercising of the gifts is often very natural. - David Guzik
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 1:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Tim: Don't assume that giftedness equals maturity.
Tom: If we're adding our pet qualifications, then let's also not assume that giftedness equals immaturity or that the absence of giftedness equals maturity.
The absence of the Spirit's gifts is certainly an abuse of the gifts just as surely as is the manner in which the gifts are SOMETIMES viewed and practiced. Paul's burden is not reflected in the mistaken assumption that the choice is between "gifts" and "no gifts," but between gifts properly practiced and gifts either not properly practiced or not practiced at all. I understand the recoil some have as a result of Pentecostal/Charismatic abuses. But if the response to such abuses leads to a "no gifts" view of corporate church life, this is no less grave an abuse of God's provision for the church than the P/C abuses it aims to avoid.
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JET
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 2/25/2004 4:04 AM (GMT -6) | | The poll asks whether speaking in tongues is “for today” or “not for today”. It sounds like an either/or--all or nothing--proposition.
It seems to me that an openness perspective might lead one to a more moderate view pursuant to which it is possible that God (who’s acts are sometimes conditioned by creational factors) uses different gifts in different ways at different times and places (or not at all at other times and places) depending on all the relevant circumstances (whatever they may be).
Is it possible that the current status of gifts (such as tongues) is "open", i.e, not either universally, normatively continuationist OR cessationist, but rather conditioned by creational factors which vary from time to time and from place to place?
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/25/2004 4:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Good point JET. What we would want to investigate is the circumstances in which God uses spiritual gifts. What needs did God use them to meet? What contexts did they arise in? What's the nature of their orgin and purpose? If we can answer these exegetically (and we can), then one would assume that where the needs, contexts, and purposes remain the same, God continues to use the gifts. Since there's every reason (in my view) for believing our needs and context are the same as the early church's, I wouldn't leave it as "open" as you would.
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PhilTheThrill
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 2/25/2004 7:01 AM (GMT -6) | | I tend to think that speaking in tongues was more useful in the early church before we had our Bible. It was sort of a signal that God was actually speaking through people (much like prophecy). I think that once we got the Bible, we didn't need to prove people were speaking from God thru miracles because we could just check the Bible to see if what the person was saying jived with God's word.
However, I could be wrong (obviously). I'm not married to that analysis, but it does make alot of sense to me. Not to mention that alot of churches that include tongues as part of worship do so in a chaotic and unbiblical way. I've never seen a charismatic church service that was orderly and particularly edifying. But I suppose that they could be out there. Any thoughts on that? | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 2/26/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: ...let's also not assume that giftedness equals immaturity or that the absence of giftedness equals maturity.
Tim: I agree with you Tom, and if I believe I can add my own 'pet qualifications' to obtain a gift, I am wrong. Because the gifts are given at the Spirit's prerogative (1Cr 12:11) and not according to my own criteria, even by maturity or the lack thereof  .
God's right over me as Creator is a fact that I accept and enjoy, when I reject this it leads to frustration; there is tremendous value in my recognizing my 'creatureliness' before God . . .
Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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