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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by bouncer99
I am curious if anyone would care to share there opinion with me. I was reading in the book of acts Specifically Act 5:40-41 The apostles had just been flogged for preaching the good news and it states that they left the Sandhedrin rejoicing.
I am tring to make sense of this verse. I understand the text and I understand what it means. The point That I am struggling with is How any one can get psyched up about getting flogged. What is the mental connection that certain believers have that allow them to suffer great physical distress and count it a blessing. I understand the idea of being like christ in all we do. But this idea eludes me.
I guess specifically, how does one change the neurons in the brain to consider suffering a virtue? Another example, of this idea, is the story of the martyers in the book Jesus Freaks. You read some of their stories and the torture they endured before their death. How does one do that? Is this a gift of the spirit when the time arises? I have been a believer for 13 years. I can honestly say that I strive to love God with all my mind,heart,soul and strength. and I strive to love others as my self But When I mentally place my self in the situation of being being physically tortured for christ I am anything but excited. I wonder, is this something that a more mature believer in the faith over comes? Thanks for reading I look forward to your reply.
Hello Bouncer99, I applaud you for asking, not many Christians can truly die to their worldly self, picking up their cross and following Jesus.
Hopefully the following will help a little in the understanding and expectations of being a Disciple of Christ.
Peace be with you.
Luke 9:23-27 (NIV)
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. [24] For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. [25] What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? [26] If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. [27] I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."
Luke 12:2-9 (NIV)
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. [6] Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. [7] Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. [9] But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/14/2004 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by bouncer99
Thanks Sparknheart for the kind words and the encouragement. I appreciated the verses you referenced. That gives me a different insight that I did not have before.
Be blessed
Your welcome Bouncer99,
I initially found this site(christusvictorministries)after listing to the following series of sermons by Greg Boyd. I could not believe the guy came out and said the truth of what it really takes to be a true disciple of Christ. They are free to donwload, I highly recommend listening to them.
Peace,
Mark
The series of sermons starts with:
7/13/2003 – Dying to Self. Part 1,
and ends with
8/10/2003 – Dying and Wealth,
The link:
www.whchurch.org/content/page_161.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/16/2004 3:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Bouncer,
Here is my opinion according to the Word.
You stated:
The point that I am struggling with is how any one can get psyched up about getting flogged. What is the mental connection that certain believers have that allow them to suffer great physical distress and count it a blessing.
I don’t think that it’s so much a matter of getting psyched up, as it is in knowing and doing the truth. First of all there is a commandment dealing with doing this, as well as a promise associated with its performance.
Matt. 5:9
Blessed are they, which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you, when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my names sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
To rejoice and be exceedingly glad when and “if” you are reviled and persecuted is a commandment of Jesus Christ, based on knowing that in taking a stand to stand on and speak the truth, along with living a righteous life according to his word, you will have great rewards in the coming kingdom of heaven, which by the way will be “on the earth”.
We are never commanded to look for or seek suffering or persecution. But rather when and again “if” it comes we are instructed on how to deal with it. The disciples had a choice, they could go away licking their wounds and feeling sorry for themselves or even hating those that flogged them. But instead they choose to do as their Lord commanded them.
One major aspect of the Word and it’s instructions is to get you to the place where you can control your emotions and so control your tongue. Therefore in this instance they had a choice, they could have left cussing those guys out for their cruel treatment of them, or they could instead renew their minds to do as the Lord commanded in that situation, and in doing so, go on to see a blessing manifested. The blessing in this case besides the future rewards of the kingdom, was the following.
Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
The reward for doing as the Lord commanded, was to be empowered with great boldness in speaking the Word, in the very places they had just been commanded NOT to teach and preach.
Acts 5:40
and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in he name of Jesus, and let them go.
As the Lord said; “to them that have shall more be given”. As you obey the commandments, in the teachings of Jesus Christ you grow and gain the following.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
A similar thing could happen today. Say for instance you are in college and taking a class in psychology. A situation arises and you have the opportunity in a discussion to contribute something pertinent to the subject, that is based in the Word of God, which as you know contains knowledge of all things pertaining to life. So you speak up and relate something being taught in that class to a principle in the Word of God. Then your professor calls you after class, and tells you that he just will not have you relating the Bible to subject matters in the class.
So now what do you do? Do you obey him, or when another opportunity arises and the spirit moves you, do you obey him or the spirit of God within you? I mean what if you get kicked out of college or at the least disliked enough by your professor to motivate him to give you a bad grade. How are you going to look at that situation? Are you going to go get a lawyer? Or are you just going to do as the Lord commanded you? Or are you going to become fearful and keep your mouth shut.
I’m not saying here that you purposely interrupt the class with the Bible all the time. But the fact is that in just about any class, if you know your Bible well enough, their will be times, that there are things taught, that also line up with the life teachings and principles of the Word of God, that allow you to share some of those things.
You see even today we can suffer persecution when people do not want us to speak what we have both seen and heard. However we thank God that we live in a country where it’s against the law (at least for now) to beat us up. However I knew of some Christians back in the 70s who got beat up by some other Christians for a difference in their beliefs.
Truth is, it is absolutely not a blessing when you get persecuted. It “feels” awful, and it’s real easy to hate the ones doing it. Rejoicing afterwards that you were accounted worthy to suffer shame for standing on truth, is a way to deal with it, and overcome evil with good. It has absolutely nothing to do with how you feel, about the situation. True rejoicing is when you feel exactly like doing the opposite, and yet what comes out your mouth is thanks towards God.
There have been a lot of Christians over the years, who were wrongly taught that they should look for suffering. Yet Jesus told his disciples:
Matthew 10:23
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the son of man be come.
This of course is specifically speaking to what people in the tribulation and end of the end times should do, but the principle is the same. In our case in Acts 5, they knew they did not have to flee the city, however at a later time they did flee it. God’s will is not that we become martyrs, but that we live to speak for him. I’m reminded of the words of Kenny Rogers which state:
“You got to know when to know when to walk away and know when to run”.
And of another who said:
“He who turns and runs away lives to fight another day”
God’s will is not ALWAYS to be obstinate on an issue unto death, to give up ALL, so to speak. And there are many examples in the Word of people sneaking out of town, take Paul for instance.
Yet there too, are times when a man must take a stand regardless of the outcome or the threat of danger to himself. However this is all tempered by learning wisdom through the gaining of the accurate knowledge of the Word of God, so that you can make a right decision. Why even Jesus himself left town or avoided going certain places where people wanted to kill him. He didn’t just blow his life off needlessly.
Christians do a lot of stupid stuff, that winds up getting them hurt, and not furthering the Word of God at all, because of youthful, mindless and ignorant zeal. The apostles did what they did and went where they went because they knew how to listen to the spirit of God. Sometimes God will even create a situation for you to turn away from, just to get you to work on your human ego and pride. Many have mistaken ego and pride for spiritual zealousness, when in reality it was just carnal immaturity.
Persecution is a form of temptation, to get one to fall away from the truth of God’s Word.
Matthew 13:20
But he that received seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it; yet has he no root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation and persecution arises because of the Word, by and by he is offended.
That is why Paul stated:
James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into divers temptations: Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, wanting for nothing. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James also tells these same people, “But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” Part of being a doer of the Word is to “rejoice and be exceedingly glad”, when and “if” you fall into the temptation of being persecuted. It’s what helps you not to be offended and fall away during that time.
On another note, I would like to say something about “giving up all” to follow the Lord. The Lord expected his disciples in the first century to “give up all” and “follow him”, because they had a certain mission to perform both during him earthly ministry and after he ascended. This mission was to “learn his Word”, learn his saying, and remember to keep his commandments to do them. Then after he left they were to spread that same word.
It’s a little bit different for us today. First of all we have THE WORD, that is his teachings contained in a bible that can be anywhere we are. We do not need to sell all, and go follow him around to hear what he has to say. We don’t need to go to Africa, or Borneo, or even Paris Texas to serve the Lord, because he is simply asking us to take that Bible and learn of him, and learn to live for and serve him right where we are at. That’s not to say that some people aren’t inspired by God to go to certain places. But that is not the general calling for every individual. Yet many times the Churches talk many people into being missionaries, that were not necessarily called by God to do so. The same accounts for pastors and teachers et. I have known a LOT of people who went somewhere or became this or that just because their Churches taught them they should do that if they were really committed.
No one ever seems to read the following directives of Paul.
1 Cor 7:17
But as God has distributed to every man, as the Lord has called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all the churches.
1 Cor 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
And this directive covers quite a few things if you read the context. A married person was to remain married, even if their spouse was an unbeliever. A servant or slave was to remain a servant or slave and to serve God in their position. A Gentile wasn’t to seek to be circumcised. So many people have been misled into thinking that to really love God, they have to give up everything they are trying to do with their life, THIS IS JUST NOT THE CASE! You serve God right where he called you. If there is something you are seeking to be or do in this life you live here, and it’s honest the GO FOR IT. Too many Christians have been talked out of doing what their heart desires as far as life goals, in education, employment et. after they became Christians, because they were taught it was evil to keep on that path, or they didn’t love God if they choose to become and engineer instead of a missionary or pastor et.
You said:
I have been a believer for 13 years. I can honestly say that I strive to love God with all my mind,heart,soul and strength. and I strive to love others as my self But When I mentally place my self in the situation of being being physically tortured for christ I am anything but excited. I wonder, is this something that a more mature believer in the faith over comes?
I think if you are excited abouty being tortured you have a screw loose and probably are possessed with an evil religous spirit. If this were the case, if we were to be excited about being tortured, then God would not have told Paul to say:
"I exhort therefore, that , first of all, supplication, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
So what is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour? That we can live a QUIET AND PEACEABLE LIFE, in all godliness and honesty. That we can just work and live life and stand on his truth and enjoy the fruits of our labors. And yes that means the MONEY you earn also, all that is a gift of God.
You know, if you do this "I can honestly say that I strive to love God with all my mind,heart,soul and strength. and I strive to love others as my self." You are already doing what God requires of you, and you are great just the way you are. Did you know that MANY people have psyched themselves into suffering physically supposedly for the Lord, and never ever actually loved anyone else at all, and their suffering besides being uncalled for and stupid, didn't benefit God a hoot. Many have "given all", including all their money, and suffered in that sense, when God was calling them to do NO SUCH THING. However that teaching is very beneficial for "the Church", if you know what I mean.
God Bless,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/16/2004 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Larris,
Thank you for your comprehensive post, I thoroughly enjoyed  it. It is a good reminder of how we should choose our battles and to humbly follow our hearts.
God Bless you.
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