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John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/16/2004 2:18 PM (GMT -6)

The following is a scene-by-scene comparison and contrast of Gibson's film with Scripture, documenting his free use of Anne Emmerich's "The Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ." Emmerich was an 18th century Roman Catholic mystic. Most of the scenes not based on Scripture are derived from Emmerich's book.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/140/story_14097_1.html

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 3/16/2004 5:58 PM (GMT -6)

Does it seem at all odd that evangelicals are flocking to such a movie? Gibson, assuming the title of the die hard Catholic he is, denies SALVATION BY FAITH ALONE. He goes further than the Arminians/ OVists to say that salvation is heavily based on works. Is this not heritical? Does Gibson have the true Gospel? Help me out here, cause I cannot see how he can.
Borg

here's a sight that might be interesting to any that holds the Passion so closley.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/movies/passion.htm

"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 3/16/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6)

When you guys make it an even playing field and also start critising Veggie Tales and picture bibles for not being totally acturate to the Bible, then I'll start listening. Otherwise, I have no problem with someone making ART...I do not expect Gibson to parrott the Bible (Borg, want a little cheese with your whine)...

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/16/2004 8:54 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

When you guys make it an even playing field and also start critising Veggie Tales and picture bibles for not being totally acturate to the Bible, then I'll start listening. Otherwise, I have no problem with someone making ART...I do not expect Gibson to parrott the Bible (Borg, want a little cheese with your whine)...

Hi feel,

I'm not unfairly criticizing ol' Mel's movie; I just came across the above link, and found it answered a lot of questions I actually did have about the movie after seeing it. If Mel wants to base a large portion of his movie on the writings of an 18th century Catholic mystic, that's certainly his right, but I do find it a bit strange that he would in one breath say he wanted to stick to the Gospels when in fact he did not stick to just the Gospels for his movie.

Anyway, I think it is worth seeing. I also don't know why sincere examination from the point of view of Scripture and Theology is a bad thing in this case. That Mel's version of the Passion is heavily influenced by his Traditionalist Catholicism is impossible to deny without ignoring the facts (as clearly noted in the link I provided).

I guess you could look at it this way: Since you and just about everybody else have a right to express your (favorable) opinion about this movie, don't I have a right to express some valid criticism of it?

Sisters of Cain
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 3/17/2004 1:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

When you guys make it an even playing field and also start critising Veggie Tales and picture bibles for not being totally acturate to the Bible, then I'll start listening. Otherwise, I have no problem with someone making ART...I do not expect Gibson to parrott the Bible (Borg, want a little cheese with your whine)...

Ever played a Veggie Tales DVD backwards?

Do NOT have the kids watch.

number 9, number 9, number 9.....

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 3/17/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6)

Uh oh. Don't get John started on those evil Romists and Papists again.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 3/17/2004 3:45 AM (GMT -6)

Sisters,

Ever played a Veggie Tales DVD backwards?

Do NOT have the kids watch.

number 9, number 9, number 9.....

THAT is funny! (Unfortunately, I played a Veggie Tale video backwards, and now I'm feeling awefully crazy! It's that BuzzSaw Louis thing, I'll bet!)

MORE WOOD!

Starkman

Sisters of Cain
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 3/17/2004 4:17 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Starkman

Sisters,

Ever played a Veggie Tales DVD backwards?

Do NOT have the kids watch.

number 9, number 9, number 9.....

THAT is funny! (Unfortunately, I played a Veggie Tale video backwards, and now I'm feeling awefully crazy! It's that BuzzSaw Louis thing, I'll bet!)

MORE WOOD!

Starkman

This is probably sacriligious but one negative review of "The Passion" subtitled it The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre* It may be bad taste but it WAS funny.

*after the famous, low budget gorey movie The Texas Chainsaw Massacre

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 3/17/2004 5:21 AM (GMT -6)

John: you are totally right! I apologize! After rethinking my post, I completely agree. The movie should be judged on two levels, as a movie and how it depicts scripture. Sorry!
Maybe if they had renamed "Jesus Texas Chainsaw..." some critics would have liked it more... Eyebrow

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 3/17/2004 9:28 PM (GMT -6)

feelinahole, for a person of your intellegence, if any can be accredited to you, i must say that your arguments intrigue me the most. why? because you come off like such an arrogant man. i hope i never have to meet you face to face, but i do thank you for sharing the love of Christ on this board... oh wait, no you don't. Your arguments to me, mean nothing. You have given me no basis by which i may judge your arguments as something you hold true. You can't even argue your side of the issue without whipping out some ad homs; and they're usually childish and inconsiderate. I would tend to think i'm dialoging with a 5 year old, not someone who is married! Your posts are so stupid that i cannot believe a person would ever commit to such. excuse the harshness of this post, but i feel like i have to make it known how ridiculous and arrogant all your posts to me are. by the way, i don't like cheese, the wine is just fine; thanks for asking though. that is one considerate thing you have done for me.
Borg

is this the way you perfer I talk to you? because that's how you talk to me. unfortunatley, I won't step down to your level again. if you don't like what i have to say, don't read it, block me for all care. for the true mark of an educated man is one who can entertain another person's ideas without being conformed.

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 3/17/2004 10:09 PM (GMT -6)

[quote]Originally posted by borg

Does it seem at all odd that evangelicals are flocking to such a movie? Gibson, assuming the title of the die hard Catholic he is, denies SALVATION BY FAITH ALONE. He goes further than the Arminians/ OVists to say that salvation is heavily based on works. Is this not heritical? Does Gibson have the true Gospel? Help me out here, cause I cannot see how he can.
Borg
(Jo-Anne)

Hello Borg,
Billy Graham liked the film. Borg, don't you think that anything that points non-believers to the cross of Christ is a good thing? Don't you think God can "take it" from there? (that's a sincere question, not a sarcastic one). Borg, lives are being transformed. Perhaps that speaks loud enough and clearly enough. If lives are transformed, people are being reconciled to God. That is why He came - reconciliation. I know that you probably don't believe that it matters who goes to see this movie, because you believe only those who will be saved - will be saved - right? Borg, if you don't believe in free will, then why would it matter to you if Christians are going to see this movie. It won't matter one way or another.

Help me understand. I'm trying here.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/18/2004 12:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by BJS

Uh oh. Don't get John started on those evil Romists and Papists again.

Umm...I have never said Romists and Papists were evil. I have some sharp differences with their theology, but that doesn't mean the people within Roman Catholicism are by definition evil. Sorry if I ever have given the opposite impression.

Sisters of Cain
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 3/18/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

Personally I won't be seeing "The Passion" mainly due to the fact I just don't see many movies these days.

Though, I think I will make a special effort to get out and see Mel's next movie, "The Assumption of the Virgin".

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 3/18/2004 3:56 AM (GMT -6)

Borg,

I find it odd that you are so opposed to The Passion. Hasn't God planned from the beginning of time for all of these millions of people to see it?

Shock

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 3/18/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6)

The idea that Calvinists cannot be upset about things such as this is just absurd. Yes I believe God will call in the elect. Personally I don't like Billy Graham that much so I dont' care if he liked the movie. And yes I do rejoice that people are being transformed, at least the sincere ones. God will use this movie and for that I rejoice, "Whether out of pretense or truth, Christ is being preached and for that I rejoice, yes i rejoice." But the means by which people are i find to be a devestating thing to God's glory. Mel does not believe in justification by faith alone; and therefore on that one small point does not have the true gospel. this movie should not be placed any higher than LOTR wich seemed to be a religious analogy. This movie is NOT scripture. American Christians have stooped to the level of relying on a movie to bring the Gospel to people. What happened to the very LIVING Word of God?
Borg

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 3/18/2004 5:24 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by borg

This movie is NOT scripture. American Christians have stooped to the level of relying on a movie to bring the Gospel to people. What happened to the very LIVING Word of God?

I wouldn't say American Christians are "stoop[ing] to the level of relying on a movie to bring the Gospel to people". In fact, I think The Passion makes a very poor evangelism tool.

I think Christians are flocking to the movie because it's a really aesthetically masterful treatment of the passion account. I think Christians are seeing it more of as an act of worship than a method of conversion.

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 3/18/2004 5:30 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by borg

The idea that Calvinists cannot be upset about things such as this is just absurd. Yes I believe God will call in the elect. Personally I don't like Billy Graham that much so I dont' care if he liked the movie. And yes I do rejoice that people are being transformed, at least the sincere ones. God will use this movie and for that I rejoice, "Whether out of pretense or truth, Christ is being preached and for that I rejoice, yes i rejoice." But the means by which people are i find to be a devestating thing to God's glory. Mel does not believe in justification by faith alone; and therefore on that one small point does not have the true gospel. this movie should not be placed any higher than LOTR wich seemed to be a religious analogy. This movie is NOT scripture. American Christians have stooped to the level of relying on a movie to bring the Gospel to people. What happened to the very LIVING Word of God?
Borg

(Jo-Anne) Borg, perhaps Mel Gibson sees himself as offering up what he has of "bread and fish," though it's not nearly adequate, but given to God can feed thousands (in this case hundreds of thousands). What we have to offer will never be perfect. God will take the truth of Christ's crucifixion and feed the hungry.

I don't know Billy Graham personally but believe he is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) evangelists of our time (so it really doesn't matter what I think of him personally). He is reaping a great harvest for God and from someone who has seen hundreds of thousands of people come to Christ at the end of a lifetime of sermons to say that this film is "worth a lifetime of sermons" is worth noting. Basically Billy Graham is telling us that this film will have at least the impact on eternity that a whole lifetime of my sermons has had. That is undeniably powerful. Who can argue with that?

"The very LIVING Word of God" was nailed to a tree for our sins.

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

Sisters of Cain
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 3/18/2004 5:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by borg
American Christians have stooped to the level of relying on a movie to bring the Gospel to people. What happened to the very LIVING Word of God?

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s04020067.htm

"The “JESUS” movie is a 94-minute United States edition of the two-hour “JESUS” film developed by Campus Crusade for Christ. The meticulously accurate, non-confrontational motion picture, translated into more than 800 languages and viewed more than 5 billion times worldwide, is the most watched film in history."

Since it takes less time to dub a 94 minute movie into a language than translate the entire bible into that language, they've been able to dub this movie into MORE than 800 languages in less time.

Would you have railed against the use of the printing press or use of the vernacular in transmitting the gospel back when those ideas were new?

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 3/18/2004 6:48 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain

quote:
Originally posted by borg
American Christians have stooped to the level of relying on a movie to bring the Gospel to people. What happened to the very LIVING Word of God?

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s04020067.htm

"The “JESUS” movie is a 94-minute United States edition of the two-hour “JESUS” film developed by Campus Crusade for Christ. The meticulously accurate, non-confrontational motion picture, translated into more than 800 languages and viewed more than 5 billion times worldwide, is the most watched film in history."

Since it takes less time to dub a 94 minute movie into a language than translate the entire bible into that language, they've been able to dub this movie into MORE than 800 languages in less time.

Would you have railed against the use of the printing press or use of the vernacular in transmitting the gospel back when those ideas were new?

(Jo-Anne) What a wonderful post. Thank you for drawing our attention to yet another great tool for communicating the Gospel. Why should we be surprised when such creativity is used to communicate the love of God? After all we are made in His image and He is creative and imaginative, passionate, intelligent...

I don't know who thought up The Wordless Book but I'm sure it has reached many children and others who needed such an evangelistic tool to understand the Gospel.

The Father does not sing over us (Zephaniah) because we're perfect, or even because we do one thing perfectly, but because our heart is for Him. Mel Gibson is no more perfect than any one of us, but His heart is for God and I believe the Father is singing over him right now.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne Borg1

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

Sisters of Cain
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 3/18/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6)

It's first century palestine, Luke brings the account he had written of the life of Jesus to the gathering of believers. He shows it to them, one of the believers complains:

quote:

This written letter is NOT oral tradition. Christians have stooped to the level of relying on written words to bring the Gospel to people. What ever happened to the very LIVING oral tradition of God?

same as it ever was
same as it ever was

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 3/18/2004 9:27 AM (GMT -6)

Don't get me started on modern day evangelism. Billy Graham has done nothing that God hasn't allowed, and we should be thankful that God uses even messages from such a man to reach His elect.

Phil I'm glad that you think this movie is a horrible witnessing tool, because it is! But this movie should not help Christians worship. How awful is that of us? God has laid down distinct boundaries on how He demands to be worshiped and far be it for a mere-mortal-sinful man like me or anyone else add to that. The Regulative Form of Worship! When was the last time people cried when reading the Gospel account in the Word? Oh, but many will say, "this movie shows in greater detail what Christ went through in a way that the Bible cannot." Are we betraying the power of the Holy Word? Are we saying that when God sent His Son in the perfect time, that He failed to manifest unto us what He wanted us to know about the cross? Are we saying that God is so dependent upon man to create a movie that is more highly esteemed than the Bible and not God-inspired? the "Jesus" film is not sufficient to save and neither is the "Passion". THE WORD ALONE!
Borg

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/18/2004 9:45 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Borg,

I've personally known missionaries who have used the "Jesus" film with notable effectiveness to evangelize in illiterate cultures. From what I understand, the Jesus film is strictly biblical, as opposed to Gibson's film.

While I basically hear ya on the regulative principle of worship being, "What does Scripture teach?" I don't see how a movie depicting the gospel story is by definition violating the "no graven image" principle.

Yes of course the message of the gospel proclaimed is the most important means of evangelization revealed in Scripture, but how is a movie any different from a person telling the gospel story to people (as in preaching)? Both media are audio and video (if the one doing the sharing is face to face with the person).

For my part, this movie, when I saw it, did not seem to inspire worship as much as horror, disgust and pity. But I know of many people who claim it renewed their appreciation of the sufferings of Christ.

Ochuk
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 102

Posted 3/18/2004 10:02 AM (GMT -6)

Why is it that people think that by quoting some bible verses people are going to be charmed like snakes and accept Christ? That is such a stupid theology! It is the SPIRIT that works to regenerate, not some poor English translation of a text translated from copies of the lost originals that you haplessly quote to someone on the street.

You can go ahead and tell me I'm denying inerrancy, but that's not the issue.

I am denying the inherent bibliolatry that believes that the Bible's words are incantations to the elect that comes along with the twisted idea called "scripture only" which is not the same thing as Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone as the highest authority)

Is it not God , as opposed to the golden-edge-big-ass leather ESV bible, who draws people to Christ?

Read my blog at ochuk.gizzar.com

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 3/18/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Ochuk

Is it not God , as opposed to the golden-edge-big-ass leather ESV bible, who draws people to Christ?

I think you're overlooking the contributions of big-ass Bibles. Cool

Sisters of Cain
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 3/18/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by borg

Don't get me started on modern day evangelism. THE WORD ALONE!

ORAL TRADITION ALONE!!!

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