 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
shunted
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 5/22/2004 10:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | | I have a question about the purpose of the Old Testament Law. This is not a new question but I have never found an adequate answer to it. Why did God create the Law? More specifically, why create a Law that He uses to judge us against when He made us in such a way that we are incapable of keeping it? It seems to me that He is judging us by a standard that we are incapable of following. It does not seem just to do such a thing. Why create us in a way that we are incapable of living the way he wants us to live? Thanks for any thoughts on this. | | Back to Top | | |
 |
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/22/2004 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by shunted
I have a question about the purpose of the Old Testament Law. This is not a new question but I have never found an adequate answer to it. Why did God create the Law?
In Galatians, Paul said the Law was meant to be a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.
quote:
More specifically, why create a Law that He uses to judge us against when He made us in such a way that we are incapable of keeping it? It seems to me that He is judging us by a standard that we are incapable of following. It does not seem just to do such a thing. Why create us in a way that we are incapable of living the way he wants us to live?
I agree with your objection, though I am unaware of any Scriptures that indicate that the law is too hard to keep.
Deut. 30:11 Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?" 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?" 14No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.
1 John says, "His commandments are not burdensome."
It is not that people CAN'T, it is that they WON'T.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
shunted
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 5/23/2004 4:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It is not that people CAN'T, it is that they WON'T.
I agree that we choose to sin and that it is a choice when we don't obey the ten commandments. However, the fact remains that no human (who has lived to adulthood) has been able to always choose not to sin. With the exception of Christ. I think it is appropriate to say that humanity can't follow the standards set forth by God since no one has been able to fully do it.
The standard of judgement is that anyone who has sinned even once deserves to go to hell. The standard is a bit extreme since God has chosen to create us in a way that we can't satisfy his standard. You may say that we won't satisfy it but our nature is such that we can't satisfy it and this is backed by empirical evidence.
I am a teacher. If I write a test in which every student, even the smartest one, gets a 0 out of 100 then everyone would say that the test was too hard. It does not seem reasonable to me to create a standard and to create humanity in such a way that following that standard is, if not impossible, then extremely difficult. It is so difficult that no one has ever satisfied it. (Excepting Christ of course.) Why do this? | | Back to Top | | |
|
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/23/2004 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | |
Your view seems to deny true guilt for sin by emphasizing inability. My view denies inability and thus upholds true blameworthiness and guilt for sin. Just because no one but Christ has ever kept the law perfectly for their entire life doesn't have to imply inability. If a phenomenon can be equally well explained by two differing views, then neither view is proven by the phenomenon.
The Scriptures I cited indicate that God's law is not too hard to keep. How could a person be truly guilty for not performing the impossible? | | Back to Top | | |
|
shunted
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 5/24/2004 6:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Your view seems to deny true guilt for sin by emphasizing inability. My view denies inability and thus upholds true blameworthiness and guilt for sin. Just because no one but Christ has ever kept the law perfectly for their entire life doesn't have to imply inability. If a phenomenon can be equally well explained by two differing views, then neither view is proven by the phenomenon.
The Scriptures I cited indicate that God's law is not too hard to keep. How could a person be truly guilty for not performing the impossible?
I should state that I am not a Christian. I have been attending Woodland Hills and am re-exploring Christianity. There are hangups that I have about the whole thing. This is one of them.
I understand your perspective with regard to the scriptures you quoted. But from my perspective this is tantamount to saying that the Bible isn't too hard to follow because the Bible says that the Bible isn't too hard to follow. But I have no reason to believe the veracity of this since human experience is such that all have fallen short. The Bible even proclaims as much.
It may be true that theorectically it is not impossible to follow the law but in practical terms it is. I base this on the fact the everyone who has lived has fallen short and, according to the Bile, everyone who is going to live will fall short.
The real question for me becomes, given the extreme difficulty in following the law and the extreme punishment for not following it perfectly how can I say that God is just? I know the Bible says that God is just but those are words in a book. I know some will say do not apply human standards of justice to God. But surely I must. If I can't say that God is just by the standards of my human perception of justice then it is a lie for me to proclaim that God is just. When I say that God is just I am fundamentally applying human standards to God in saying that he is just. One does not say, "God is just but not in the normal human way that I usually mean when I say something is just."
The point, for me, is that God's standard of judgement is extremely difficulty to meet and the punishment is exteme and thus it seems to me that God is not just. I don't understand having such harsh standards and such harsh punishments. Why would a being do such a thing? If this is how he really wants us to behave then why not create us in a way that meeting this standard is much easier to do? | | Back to Top | | |
|
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 5/24/2004 6:30 AM (GMT -6) | | I have a question about the purpose of the Old Testament Law. This is not a new question but I have never found an adequate answer to it. Why did God create the Law?
Gal 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law?
WOW, too cool it's the same question you asked.
Why did God create the Law?
Wherefore then serveth the law?
Let's just transplant your words to the verse.
Why did God create the Law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained (enforced) by angles in the hand of a mediator.
Because the children of Israel did not love God with all their heart, and soul and mind and strength BY loving their neighbors as themselves, they then TRANSGRESSED the original covenant made to Abraham 430 years BEFORE "The Law" was ADDED to that covenant.
Gal. 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
IF Abraham's children being brought out of Egypt had kept the same covenant as Abraham kept it, there would have been no need for "The Law". You have to realize that God was bringing a NEW NATION out of Egypt. Every nation must have "laws" of some kind to protect its citizens from one another. HOWEVER if each individual walks in the covenant of Christ, which is to love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength, BY loving his neighbor as himself, he will NATURALLY NOT HURT HIS NEIGHBOR. If people do not lie, cheat, steal, defraud, kill and run through stop signs there is no need for LAW.
LOVE is the fulfillment of the "LAW", because LOVE WORKS NO ILL TO Its NEIGHBOR. And LOVE is our part of the fulfillment of the Covenant given to Abraham, which was confirmed by God in Christ, 430 years before THE LAW was ADDED to it, because Israel as a whole (minus a few isolated individuals.) would not keep it. That is, so many more would not love than love, that God had to make laws to tell them what it was to love their neighbor, and then if they did not so it, there were also laws stating the consequences and punishments of their actions or lack of action. For you can NOT LOVE just as much by what you DO NOT DO as what you DO DO. Case in point look at the following part of “THE LAW”
Ex. 22:1
If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
Ex 22:5
If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in ANOTHER MAN’S FIELD: of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
Stealing something that belongs to someone else does NOT LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. You can even steal GRASS is you let your animal eat off the land of someone else. I understand this one well having lived in the west and been involved in livestock and agriculture all my life. There was always a neighbor that refused to fix his half of the fence and let his cattle “accidentally” and always break through to graze on your land. That is STEALING.
These are examples of THE LAW given to Moses regarding what you should not do and the penalties for such. But now here are some laws on what you were also expected TO DO, and if you did not do it there would be penalties for such actions.
Ex 23:4
IF thou meet thine enemy’s ox or his ass going astray, thou shall surely bring it back to him again. If thou see the ass of him that hates thee lying under his burden, and would forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
Not to help your enemy out, when it’s a situation there staring you in the face is to “hate your enemy”. But to help him out even though he hates you, is to love your enemy. This is WHY LOVE IS THE FULFILLING of the Law. God made the Law, so that the people would not oppress one another, and if they did, they would be punished for it. God made the Law to protect people from people.
The reason we do not have that same type of law today is because we are not a “nation”. As Christians we are citizens of a heavenly kingdom, but we are under the God ordained government of the nation in which we live. Those nations were given the authority to deal with man’s oppression to man, and hence take the place of the national theocratic LAW of the Old Testament. The more WICKED the people of any nation, the more they do not LOVE one another, the MORE WICKED is the government under which they must live. And the facts are that the innocent minority suffers right along with the guilty majority. But truly righteous men God will often allow to escape the full-fledged wrath of punishment against a nation as a whole.
Rom 13:3
Let every soul be subject into the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that does evil. Wherefore you must need be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
A lot of times when we are looking at the Old Testament and trying to figure out what the law was for, and how it applies to us or to them et., WE FORGET, or perhaps have never contemplated, the fact that those to whom the Law was given were regular nation in and of themselves. At first when they came out of Egypt they were what is called a “Theocracy”. This was where God himself ruled over them, and simply had judges who executed his laws. But they were not content that HE should rule over them and they wanted a King, so God gave them one. Still they did not obey the King and they did not obey the Law, and many times the Kings did not enforce the Law or do the Law himself.
Because of this they finally lost their right to live under the Law of God. Then God had them taken captivity and subjected to the laws of various nations. But by the time Christ arrived, they were not only NOT under a theocracy, they were not even under the Law of their own country. Because of breaking those laws in THE LAW, and being partial and subverting the justice of THE LAW, God had them subjected to another nation and it’s laws. God handed them over to the iron fisted laws of Rome. They were reaping what they had sown. Case in point, they were partial, they subverted the law of the law that said there would be one law for both the stranger that sojourned among them and for the Jew. Therefore they were subjected to a nation where there was one law for the ROMAN citizen and another for those who were not citizens. Rome’s laws were specifically developed to punish the Jews and recompense them for what they had done to others.
However even in Rome it was not against the law to be MEEK. Even in Rome it was not against the law to or to have joy, or to be at peace with yourself and others, or to be longsuffering towards others, or to be gentle, or to be good, or to be temperate, or to love your neighbor be he friend or foe. And in punishing the nation of Israel for not keeping THE LAW by subjecting them to THE LAW OF ROME, God also made it easily available to ANYONE to fulfill THE LAW OF CHRIST which was to love their neighbor, be he brother or enemy as their self. Within the Law of Rome the ability to fulfill the Law of God by working no ill to one’s neighbor could still be fulfilled by any individual be he Jew or Gentile, man or woman, bond or free man.
Jesus knew this truth. He knew that he was not under the THEOCRATIC Law, or those laws dealing with the governing of a nation, written within the Law of Moses. That right had been taken away from the Jews by the time Christ was born and had come into his ministry. Jesus knew that it was his Father’s will that Israel was in subjection to the authority of Rome. Therefore Jesus subjected himself to the authority of Rome. For example:
Luke 20:20 And they watched him and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.
And they asked him saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teach the way of God truly: If it LAWFUL (right according to THE LAW given by God to Moses) to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
Well IF they were still at that time, still ONE NATION under GOD, it would not have been lawful to pay tribute unto Caesar. Neither would they have to, since IF they had kept the Law to begin with God would have blessed them and Caesar would have been paying tribute unto them. But because of their disobedience there were in the position of having to pay tribute to Caesar. But rather than go through all the explanations of WHY they had to pay tribute unto Caesar, Jesus just summed it up as:
Why tempt ye me? Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto God the things which be God’s. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marveled at his answer, and held their peace.
The Jews were subject to Roman Law, and so most of their tempting and tricks were directed towards trying to get Jesus to break Roman Law. They did not have the legal right to execute or kill anyone, even though it took place from time to time, by mobs.
John 18:29
Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring you against this man? They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. Then said Pilate unto them, Take you him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not LAWFUL FOR US TO PUT ANY MAN TO DEATH.
Well now what LAW were they talking about? They sure were not speaking of the Law of Moses. Because they had broken that Law, they were now in subjection to Rome’s LAW. Therefore they said it was not LAWFUL according to the LAW OF ROME, for them to put ANY MAN to death. Now as for “women” I don’t know. But I do know that they tried to use the Law of Moses against the woman caught in adultery and get Jesus to pronounce the death sentence for her. Were they again just tempting him to break ROMAN LAW? And again in that instance Jesus did not pronounce the judgment of the Law of Moses. Did Jesus break the Law of Moses by obeying Roman Law?
No Jesus did not break the Law of God by obeying the Law of Rome. For he knew that the Jews had lost their right to govern themselves in such matters, because of their disobedience to the Law of God.
UNLESS they had gone through all the right Roman channels. About the most they could punish someone was to have them flogged or put them out of the synagogue. Even after they tried a person, they had to go to the Roman Authorities for the execution of judgment on the death penalty.
The main reason they brought the woman taken in adultery to Jesus, was to tempt him to disobey Roman Law, by getting them to enforce THE LAW on the woman by stoning her. But Jesus knew that the time was WAY PAST for when they had the chance to rule their own nation, and therefore even though THE LAW said that the penalty for adultery was death, they no longer had the God given right to rule themselves by God’s Law in such matters. They were in subjection to Rome because they had not kept the LAWS of THE LAW to begin with. Such a penalty was already written in THE LAW, and they were suffering the consequences of breaking the Law, by being conquered by the heathen, and thus having to live under their laws.
Point was the Jews were under subjection to Rome, for not subjecting themselves to the authority of God’s Law. They were under the authority of that Law for not subjecting themselves to God’s covenant with Abraham, the covenant confirmed before God in Christ. Hence since they would not do THE LAW, God made it impossible for them to DO THE LAW even if they really wanted to. But they could always even under Rome fulfill the covenant in Christ, because against such there is NO LAW, no not in any nation on the face of the earth.
God exerts control when the people will not control themselves. The more the people do not control themselves the more control God exerts. God especially punishes those who claim his name and his word and then do not do as His word states by not loving their neighbors be they friend or foe as themselves. Unfortunately because of the wickedness of man, MANY innocents suffer and die. Wicked men sin against God, and their children suffer and die before they ever even have the chance to grow up and sin against God in the same manner.
Now we are all born into some nation on the earth with it’s own laws to either protect or punish the citizens of each nation. And we can keep the laws of God in Christ, by loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength BY loving our neighbors as ourselves. For against such there is no law, no not in all the earth.
Gal. 5:22
But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.
Now in “some” nations there are laws against trying to convert people to Christ by preaching the gospel. The reason these nations arose was because of the idolatry and wickedness of the people. HOWEVER before these nations were ever as wicked as they are today, they all had the chance to hear the gospel. And it is the rejection of that same gospel that eventually led them into bondage. For example EVERY country today that is under the bondage of Islam was once a Christian nation. But just as the Jews did not keep the covenant of Abraham confirmed before God in Christ, neither did the Gentile nations keep the covenant that was confirmed before God in Christ for them. That is why Paul writes prophetically referring to Israel's past and the Gentile nations future:
Rom. 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one: there is none that understands, there is none that sees after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before there eyes.
Remember “LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW”. Every man born into the world can keep this law, even though he has never neither seen nor heard God’s wonderful Written or spoken word. Therefore now that it is written not to do such makes not loving your neighbor more exceedingly sinful. Just as the giving of the law to Moses made sin in general more exceedingly sinful.
Rom. 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law: For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. FOR WHEN THE GENTILES WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these who have not the law are a law unto themselves. Which SHOW the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS.
Remember Noah? Well it is men like Noah that this scripture is referring to. Noah was not a Jew, neither was he a descendent of Abraham. Noah was a Gentile who did not have any written laws on how he should behave. He was one of these Gentiles who did not have the law, but he did by nature the things contained in the law, and he showed the work of the law written in his heart. Thus he fulfilled the law, by fulfilling the covenant of Christ even before the covenant of Christ was made. There have been gentiles ever since Adam who by nature did the things contained in the law. No one will ever know their names, they are for the most part just regular people who have lived here and there throughout time. These are pagan Gentiles who fulfilled the law, by working no ill to their neighbors. Most of these only God himself knows, and according to God they are circumcised and sanctified unto him.
Rom. 2:Therfore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward, in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter: whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Just as Israel according to the flesh did not keep covenant confirmed be fore God in Christ, 430 years before the LAW that was added because of transgressions. And then did not keep the added LAW and so lost their nation, So it is with the Gentile nations. In every nation that has become Christian, they have refused for the most part to keep the law of love in working no ill to their neighbors. In the end of time God gave them a nation of justice and freedom to once again learn to keep that same law of love and they have broken it again. The only thing left is judgment and it begins at the house of God.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 5/24/2004 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by shunted
The point, for me, is that God's standard of judgement is extremely difficulty to meet and the punishment is exteme and thus it seems to me that God is not just. I don't understand having such harsh standards and such harsh punishments. Why would a being do such a thing? If this is how he really wants us to behave then why not create us in a way that meeting this standard is much easier to do?
Good questions, shunted.
I'd like to say, I do not believe the law is "extremely difficult" to keep. Here are some examples of people who kept the law, though not completely:
Enoch
Genesis 5:22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters.
23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Job
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil
Job 1:8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.
Abel
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Noah
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Matthew 20:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
Here's what I think:
1. Keeping the law is NOT impossible, God will help us if we're willing.
(in the OT days, they made continual sacrifice and looked ahead to the One who would make the final, definitive, sacrifice)
2. We break the law not because it's easy to break but because we WANT to.
3. God provided Jesus to keep the law in our stead, throw yourself on His work and mercy. It's not "extremely difficult" if He provided the solution.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 5/24/2004 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sister's,
You said:
I'd like to say, I do not believe the law is "extremely difficult" to keep. Here are some examples of people who kept the law, though not completely:
Then you gave as examples: Enoch, Job, Able and Noah. And yes they were just and righteous men. However the problem I see here is that "The Law" was not written until long after all of these men were gone. So what law did they keep?
Romans 6:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
How could Enoch, Able and Noah, keep "the law", since in their time it had not been given yet?
You stated: 2. We break the law not because it's easy to break but because we WANT to.
That opinion contradicts what the apostle Paul said.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate that do I.
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 5/24/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
However the problem I see here is that "The Law" was not written until long after all of these men were gone. So what law did they keep?
Romans 6:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Good point. However before Moses gave the codified law, something must have existed.
Job is described in 1:1, 8 as "fearing God and turning away from evil" which indicates a moral law in place (but not codified/written down)
Romans 1:20 also shows this 'pre-covenant' law:
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
quote:
You stated: 2. We break the law not because it's easy to break but because we WANT to.
That opinion contradicts what the apostle Paul said.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate that do I.
James 1:14 "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."
Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
I just don't buy the 'inevitability' of sinning. I've heard too many excuse their sin on God's making them that way.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/24/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
I just don't buy the 'inevitability' of sinning. I've heard too many excuse their sin on God's making them that way.
Amen! Pure Augustinian/Calvinian/determinism/fatalism is what that kind of nonsense is. Their view indeed makes God out to be the most impossible tyrant imaginable, commanding man to do that which He knows full well they CANNOT do, and then condemning them to hell for not doing what God causes them to do! It is little wonder that atheism flourishes in the world when this is the picture of "the God of love" people are told is biblical.
Paul is using what is known of as "the historical present" in Romans 7, to vividly depict the impossibility of keeping the law in one's own strength, without relying on God's enabling power.
Romans 7 depicts a man striving to keep the law in himself, without the assistance of the Spirit of grace. This is what Paul is comparing and contrasting in Rom. 6, 7, & 8. Chapters 6 and 8:14 are absolutely inconsistent with ch. 7:14-20, if in fact both are supposed to represent the normal Christian life. Also, the Bible does make clear that "he that committeth sin is the SLAVE of sin," while, "if the Son therefore doth make you free, you are free indeed." (John 8:31ff). Sin is like quicksand. As soon as one gets into it, one cannot get out of it by oneself. Thus, Paul says in Romans 8, "For the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 5/24/2004 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by shunted
I have a question about the purpose of the Old Testament Law. This is not a new question but I have never found an adequate answer to it. Why did God create the Law? More specifically, why create a Law that He uses to judge us against when He made us in such a way that we are incapable of keeping it? It seems to me that He is judging us by a standard that we are incapable of following. It does not seem just to do such a thing. Why create us in a way that we are incapable of living the way he wants us to live? Thanks for any thoughts on this.
I think this is an excellent question and one I have not resolved myself to my own satisfaction. But I will say that I cannot give the at-least-seemingly glib answers that others here have done :-) Perhaps here at least I depart from the Arminian/Wesleyan perspectives. Sin is a fact of life, even of the Christian life. A completely sinless life is a practical impossibility, and Paul for example recognizes this throughout Romans 7 and elsewhere (for example as he advises the Corinthians to marry so as to have refuge from lust). And whether something is theoretically possible, yet practically impossible, versus whether it is theoretically impossible to begin with, makes little difference in the final analysis, and any pleading based on the narrow distinction is lost on me. Your analogy of the teacher and the practically-impossible-for-his-students test is apt.
The answer, though, is in Christ. Through Jesus Christ God makes provision for our inevitable sin so that we can be accepted and forgiven nonetheless. And the purpose of the Law (both the Torah and "the law written on their hearts", moral consience) is to point to Christ, as others here have already pointed out from Galations and elsewhere. But by "point to Christ" is meant: to lay the theological groundwork so that we can understand the immensity of our separation from God, the necessity and reality of our dependence on God, and the great depth of his love for us and all creation. That has been God's purpose for the law, as I see it - and in that, it has been the spirit of law, and not its letter, that has mattered - whether it is the law of moral conscience on our hearts, or that law as most exemplified in the ancient world by the attempt of the Torah to enshrine it. In contrast, law as I see it is and has never been salvific in itself, but serves as a tool whose spirit paves the way for Christ, as Paul basically says. How else can Jesus say of himself that he fulfills the Law and the Prophets, even as he abrogates the Torah on divorce and diet?
So through Christ God makes provision for the whole world to be delivered from the sin that is inevitable when free agents such as us are let loose. Christ is not some "plan B" that God pulled when man's perfect obedience to law failed; Christ is the linchpin of creation, intended from the beginning. Christ was entailed as soon as God decided to create in love, as I see it. (How well this dovetails with open theism I am unsure, but I suspect they are compatible.)
So how then is God justified in condemning those who sin apart from Christ? Because, with the provision made in Jesus, the commandment is easy: not "follow the law" (an impossibility - whether theoretically or merely practically, I care not) but "follow me", that is, "on balance, desire me and what I desire, even if you are incapable of perfectly acting it out". As I see it, with creation centered around Christ, it is not that any one sin condemns me in practice, so much as it is my rejection of the love of (and for) God which condemns me - for provision for my sins and those of the whole world have been made by him and offered freely so that it is mine alone to reject. Despite the ending of the Left Behind series (which apparently has people screaming sincerely "Lord I believe" even as they are trundled off to hell, having merely believed too late - or so I've read, at least), I stand with the likes of C. S. Lewis in saying that none will be condemned, in the final analysis, besides those who want nothing more (and yes, there are some).
Anyway, these are my thoughts on your excellent question.
Scott
| | Back to Top | | |
|
scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 5/24/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Paul is using what is known of as "the historical present" in Romans 7, to vividly depict the impossibility of keeping the law in one's own strength, without relying on God's enabling power.
Romans 7 depicts a man striving to keep the law in himself, without the assistance of the Spirit of grace. This is what Paul is comparing and contrasting in Rom. 6, 7, & 8. Chapters 6 and 8:14 are absolutely inconsistent with ch. 7:14-20, if in fact both are supposed to represent the normal Christian life.
...
John,
Certainly Romans 7:14-20 does not represent only the dead life which does not desire God and is separated from God - as I've sometimes heard it said. For Paul makes much in those verses about how he delights in God's ways and wants with all his mind to fall into line. I think we are agreed on that.
But I do feel that Romans 6-8 represent the normal Christian life, including Romans 7:14-20. They seem to me to be two sides of the same coin, the tug-of-war in the heart by which we are victorious, and then in travail, and then victorious again, and so on, every hour of every day, as we as Christians vibrate between self and God. Perhaps this is what you mean too. But I certainly feel this is normal, though not ideal, and while we can improve on it with God's leading (sanctification, I suppose) we can never bring it fully to rest. Thankfully we don't have to, for God welcomes us anyway.
Scott
| | Back to Top | | |
|
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 5/24/2004 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
You stated:
quote:
Good point. However before Moses gave the codified law, something must have existed.
Job is described in 1:1, 8 as "fearing God and turning away from evil" which indicates a moral law in place (but not codified/written down)
Romans 1:20 also shows this 'pre-covenant' law:
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
quote:
Yes something did exist and it exists today.
James 2:8
If you filfil The Royal Law according to the Scripture you do well:
The ROYAL LAW is also spoken of as:
The Law of Liberty.
James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged The Law of Liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy that has shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoices agaisnt judgment.
This same most ancient of Laws is also called The Law of Christ.
Gal. 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens and so fulfil filfil The Law of Christ.
Paul goes on to say in verse 7;
Be not deceived God is not mocked for whatsoever a man sowes that shall he reap.
This has NOTHING to do with titheing, and everything to do with how you treat others.
Gal. 6:9-10
And let us not be weary in well doing for in due season we hsall reap, if we faint not. As we have therfore opportinity, let us do good UNTO ALL MEN, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
The Royla Law, the Law of Liberty and the Law of Christ are all sumed up in "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." In other words everyone knows how they would like to be treated, and therefore everyone intrisicly knows who they should treat others. This is why it never had to be written down for someone to do it. This is what pleases God.
You want mercy? Show it to others. You want people to be patient with you have patience with others. You want people to forgive you, forgive them. and on down the list of all the things in life that we want for ourselves, we are to want for others just as much.
And when we break that Royal Law, we receive back from God himself. IF you show not mercy, God will show you NO MERCY. If you have no kindness God will have none for you. Someday we will all be judged. We will statnd in front of God to receive for what we have done in these bodies. He will treat us as we have treated others.
EVERYONE knows exactly how they do not like to be treated by others. Love is the fulfilling of the law because love works no ill to his neighbor. All you have to do to fulfil the law is nto harm others, and reach out to help them when they need it. God will always see to it that there is a person right in front of you (not clear over in Bornieo), that you have the opportunity to love as you would like to be loved. It's all really that simple!
I mean if you treat someone like scum, that is a sin. So maybe you have a habbit of being self righteous and looking down on others. Whta will get you out of that habbit is accepting the truth, that someday God will look down on you and treat you like scum. You are going to get just what you dish out. He will be shown mercy who has shown mercy.
For he shall have judgment without mercy that has shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoices agaisnt judgment.
In the end regardless of some of the personal mistakes and sin you have made, what will really count if how you treated others. That is why LOVE covers up a multitude of your sins. You might have been weak in some areas of the flesh, but you showed mercy to others and were kind to them. That is what is going to count!
God's people gat all caught up in discussing endlessly about are they under the law not under the law et. And what Christ tried to teach was in essence exactly what I have just said: "Love thy neighbor as theyself". The motivation for such is knowing that God will dish it out to you in the end, the same way you dished it out to others as you lived.
So people quit worrying about THE LAW, and just start living that ROYAL LAW, that LAW OF LIBERTY, the LAW OF CHRIST. And man LOOSEN UP, and give your bothers and sisters and YOURSELF a BREAK, so that you can get one from God later.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
|
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/24/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Scott,
In my experience, the differences on this question really revolve around the distinctions one makes between what Wesley called "sin properly so called," and "sin improperly so called." I understand a clear distinction in Scripture between temptation and actual sin (or else Christ himself was a sinner in that He was tempted).
For example, many people take Christ's word about looking on a woman TO lust after her as condemning even involuntary impulses! If so, we must conclude the Christ himself did not have a normal degree of testosterone, and thus he was not really tempted in all points like us. My understanding of the biblical definition of sin is that it is a willful transgression of a known law (or else moral obligation would be an empty category).
The inconsistencies between Romans 6 and Romans 7 alone are enough to rule out their concomitancy. Romans 6 says we are FREE from the law; Romans 7:14-20 describes a person BOUND to the law. Romans 6 says sin shall NOT have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace; Romans 7:14-20 describes a person who is in fact "sold under sin" (enslaved). And to cap it all off, Romans 8 says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death.
While I certainly agree that one CAN alternate between obedience and disobedience, even in the same day, it is purely illogical to say that one can both obey and disobey at the same time.
Many scholars (even some Calvinists, like Martin Lloyd Jones and A.T. Robertson) have agreed that Romans 7:14-20 depicts a person who is trying to keep the law apart from grace.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
shunted
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 5/24/2004 4:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by scott_jorgenson
So how then is God justified in condemning those who sin apart from Christ? Because, with the provision made in Jesus, the commandment is easy: not "follow the law" (an impossibility - whether theoretically or merely practically, I care not) but "follow me", that is, "on balance, desire me and what I desire, even if you are incapable of perfectly acting it out". As I see it, with creation centered around Christ, it is not that any one sin condemns me in practice, so much as it is my rejection of the love of (and for) God which condemns me - for provision for my sins and those of the whole world have been made by him and offered freely so that it is mine alone to reject. Despite the ending of the Left Behind series (which apparently has people screaming sincerely "Lord I believe" even as they are trundled off to hell, having merely believed too late - or so I've read, at least), I stand with the likes of C. S. Lewis in saying that none will be condemned, in the final analysis, besides those who want nothing more (and yes, there are some).
Scott,
Thanks for your response. I have been thinking along similar lines today and then read your post. I like what you worte and agree with most of it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 5/25/2004 3:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John,
quote:
Some Christian writers have defined what you are talking about as the MORAL law of God. As you probably are aware, this fundamental law is found at every point in Scripture, though it may not be stated as such in every case. It is summed up by Christ as loving God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength, and one's neighbor as oneself. This is the moral obligation of all who would be a disciple of Christ.
Yes I have heard the argument of the moral law in the context of trying to figure out which part of the Old testament might still be applicable today et. Even myself when trying to explain how we are not under THE LAW, but we still are not licenced for moral depravity, have thought along those lines. I mean you can learn from the Old Testament right?! And I have a real problem with NO WORKS WHATSOEVER JESUS OR GOD DOES IT ALL IN ME type of teaching. Because ususally many of these people have been the MEANEST Christians I've ever seen while they are waiting around for God or Jesus to WORK (make them) walk in love.
As a Christian I was stuck in Romans 7 for 17 years. By that I mean in "APPLICATION", with only some of chapter 8 for some relief. That is yes you can do all things through Christ that strengthens you BUT of course you WON'T because of the natural inclination for sin within you, but it's NOT REALLY YOU. Now John I'm kind of kidding here, not not all together. Case in point, let's face it Romans can be a little exaxperating.
I'm sorry but I quit reading a lot of what people write ABOUT the Bible and have for the last 10 years endeavored to train myself to just read the Bible. IF THEY can think they understand it, then since each on of us is equal with the same measure of faith, the same holy spirit, it ought to be able to do it's job and help guide us into a knowldge of the truth. And I think that when you read a lot of what people say ABOUT the Bible, you can get some false concepts stuck in your head and have even a harder time understanding what it's really saying. But then here I am telling what I thinks going on there. And of course as you have learned I CAN be mistaken (Ha ha).
As little old me sees this (and I too believe I have the spirit of God) what they call the "Moral Law", (a term not actually found in the bible.) is in reality and really called "The Royal" Law. Yes it actually has it's own name. And also called the Law of Liberty, because that gives us another aspect of that Royal Law. And togeter they compose in understanding the basic Law of Christ. That is they sum up in name what is taught in the New Testament. Because let's face it, once you get around all those isolated verses that people discect and write endlessly about, and read the multitude of what's between them, it pretty much all has to do with BEHAVIOR towards one another and those without. Even notice there is not much commentary on that stuff?
There has been times in my relationship with Romans over the years that I wish I could raise Paul up and slap him with a wet noodle for even writing that book. But it's of course not Paul, but the placement of the book and the interpretations put into my head that have been the problem. Unitl that is I came to realize that Romans 1 through about 11 and 1/2 is written to Jewish Christians with a nasty attitude towards their fellow Gentile Christians, and that Paul is not speaking to me in one way or the other. But going to great lengths to explain to them WHY the Gentiles do not have to keep the Law.
So when I get to chapter 7, it's not somehting that I'm supposed ot APPLY to my life as a Gentile Christian 2000 years down the line, because it is not talking about the effects of the gosple of Grace, but rather is an explanation about what THE LAW dose to a man, and the effects of someone under THE LAW. If you go through there and oount the number of times Paul uses the term "THE LAW" referring to what happens to a Jew under THE LAW, it's abundant.
So first rule of discipleship "continue in my word and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." By continuing to read and read and read that epistle, I was finally set FREE from chapters 1-10 because I found out they didn't even apply to me. Then where Paul speaks to the Gentiles Christians in 11, I can learn from that if I have an attitude towards the Jews. But what really freed me up, was realizing that 12 on is actual DOCTRINE and lists what I am supposed to do, as a believer under the gospel of GRACE.
WHAT FREEDOM THAT WAS!
Paul addressing the Christian or believing Jews
Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (FOR I SPEAK TO THEM THAT KNOW THE LAW,)
Paul speaks to Christian Jews in Rome from chapter 1 clear on through to the middle of chapter 11, where he then begins to address the Christian Gentiles.
11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, .....
and then in 12 addresses them both and it is only from 12 on that you have actual doctrine applicalbe to BOTH under the gospel of Christ.
Chapter 12 is PURE gospel of GRACE and EASY to understand and apply.
I beseech you therefore, brethren (to both Jews and Gentile Christians here.) by the mercies of God, that you present your boides a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonalbe service. and be not cofomed to this world; but be ye trasformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
For I say through the grace that is given unto me, to EVERY MAN (both Jew and Gentile)that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think (THAT IS WHAT THE PREVIOUS 11 CHAPTERS DEALT WITH.) But to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man (both believing Jew and believing Gentile) the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in ONE body (both Jewish members and Gentile members.), and all members (weather they be Jew or Gentile) have not the same office: so we being many, are one body (Jew and Gentile) in Christ.
In fact if you just read and DO 12-16, you don't even have to worry about all the previous chapters, they will just take care of themselves.
There are some real hard rules and laws to follow though like:
Rom 12:6
Having gifts differing according to the grace that is given unto US,
1. whether prophecy, let us prophesy according ot the proportion of faith.
2. Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering:
3. or he htat teaches on teaching:
4. Or he that exhorteth on exortation:
5. he that gives let him do it with simplicity;
6. he that ruleth, with diligence;
7. he that shews mercy, with cheerfulness.
8. Let love be without dissimulatoin.
9. Abhor that which is evil, cleave to that which is good.
10. BE KINDLY AFFECTIONED ONE TO ANOTHER with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Not slothful in business, fervent in spirit serving the Lord.
[Love IS your business when serving the Lord!]
11. Rejoicing in hope;
12. patient in tribulation;
13. continuing instant in prayer;
14. Distributing to the necessity of saints;
15. given to hospitality.
16. Bless them which persecute you; bless, and curse not.
17. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
18. Be of the same mind one toward another.
19. Mind not high things but condesend to men of low estate.
20. Be not wise in your own conceits.
21. Recompense no man evil for evil.
22. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
23. If it be possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all men
24. Dearly beloved avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengence is mine I will repay sayeth the Lord.
25. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
26. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
And you can go on through the rest of the book listing things you are COMMANDED to do. And in doing so you fulfil the Royal Law, the law of love that works no ill, but works good to his neighbor.
THIS is what Romans is really all about. But teachers have stuck us in parts that were not meant for us, and which we CANNOT apply. But anyone can take and look at things like as are listsed above and DO them, and be living as he is in this world. For these things show the true Christian way, and the genuine will of God for your life.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
|
shunted
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 5/26/2004 6:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello to all. I have read the posts and they have been most helpful. Thanks for sharing your views. I am on vacation now and I haven't responded to most of the posts but I have contemplated them. I am the one who started the thread and wanted to let you all know that I think I have made progress in this question. Thanks again.
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 12:20 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|