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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/7/2004 7:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
Jefscott - Blessings. Smile, he is hard core.
And I think you know this, but this is to add to your point about Larris's lack of reponsiveness.
This entire thread, although entitled The PreTrib Rapture, and Mystery stuff, I put off the rapture stuff to first deal with one single issue. The uniqueness and nature of the revelation that was given to Paul to give to us for the teachings of this dispensation.
Yet, to date, and after post after post after post, my requests for folks to deal with this single primary foundational issue, has been met with ,,, nothing but aversion.
Actually, since it was my post in the other thread that caused you to start this one, it is simply not true that you have been met with "nothing but aversion" by me at least. In addition, you have chosen not to engage my points at all in the posts I have made in this thread. It seems to me that you are the one who is engaging in "aversion."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/7/2004 8:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
in christ, larris, doesn't whitewash your shamelessly insulting posts. Can you even define humility and meekness??? Please deal with the questions I have begged you to explain!!
As I said there is a fine line between attacking the doctrine and attacking the person. Again if I have gone over that line I apologize. However no matter how one might say something against what another believes it’s always going to offend the person, one way or the other. Jesus was the most humble and meekest person in the world and he offended plenty of people. The fact is that we are going to offend one another when ever we question what the other believes, no matter how we do it. But I will “try” to be meek and humble in a manner that will offend you less, by not assuming this and that about the origins of your beliefs.
As to the question you have asked me to explain, I will explain it, but I don’t expect you to accept my explanation.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The FIRST thing one has to remember here is that the Scribes and the Pharisee’s did not FULFILL THE LAW to begin with.
Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men:
The SECOND thing one has to find out is; “What does it mean to “FULFILL THE LAW”.
Romans 8:4 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ones righteouness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees when one walks after the spirit. Jesus definately fulfilled the law in that he walked after the spirit and not after the flesh.
The THIRD thing we would have to know is what does it mean to “WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.”
Romans 13:8 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
IF
“the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
And IF,
“he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.”
Then IF you love another you have not only fulfilled the law but the righteousness of the Law is fullfilled in you. Hence since the Scribes and Pharisee’s did not love others, they did not in fact fulfill the Law, hence by your loving others, your righteousness will and does exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees.
If walking by the spirit is to walk in love and to walk in love is to fulfill the law,, hence Jesus always did that and therefore fulfilled the Law. Jesus did not DESTROY the Law and the Prophets, he fulfilled in that he walked it perfectly and taught it perfectly as it was to be taught. Ending by fulfilling the sacrificial obligations for sin contained in that same Law, and foretold to take place in the Prophets, by the sacrifice of himself, and so ending for all time the need for a Levitical Priesthood, and animal sacrifices for sin. But LEAVING the righteous requirements of the Law, which were to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to your neighbor as your self.
Eph. 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
To walk in love, to walk in light, to walk in truth was to walk as Jesus commanded in Matthew 5. These were things that Paul had already taught. When you read Ephesians you are not reading verbatem what Paul taught them when he was with them. When he was with them, he taught them what Jesus taught in his earthly ministry. Then later he simply wrote them a letter to confirm them in what he had already taught them. Most of his letters are AFTER THE FACT, they are letters of reproof, correction and instuction for not obeying what he taught them to begin with.
Luke traveled with Paul everywhere he went, and Luke specifically states exactly what they believed.
Luke 1
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
What is recorded in what are called The Gospels are what they were taught first and what Paul taught everywhere he went. The difference being that Paul received his revelation from the risen Christ in person. And the other apostles were with Jesus during his earthly ministry and then again after his asention. The ONLY difference between Paul and the other apostles is that he was not a follower of Jesus at the same time the other apostles were and he received all his revelation from Jesus Christ telling him in person and verbatem the very same things he told all the other apostles. In fact since Luke spent so much time with Paul what you have in Luke is pretty much exactly what Jesus told Paul, and then Paul in turn taught to others. However that would include Jesus giving Paul the understanding of all he taught in his earthly ministry and how it all related to the Scriptures of the Law and Prophets and Psalms.
So my understanding of Matthew 5 is this, when Jesus said: 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
It set the context for this:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Which set the context for this:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Which set the context for what comes next which is the very commandments he was referring to above. Now whosoever shall keep and teach THESE FOLLOWING COMMANDMENTS THAT HE NOW GOES ON TO GIVE, shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
WHAT ARE THOSE COMMANDMENTS?
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
This is teaching you HOW TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and thus HOW TO FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW. It is also teaching you that there will in fact be penalties for not loving your neighbor. You would not believe how many Christians get angry with their brother for no cause whatsoever, just to be mean, and because they CAN. Now before you try and use this against me, saying well look how you’ve acted to me, consider that I am not angry with you without a cause. NEITHER am I simply angry at you, but I am incensed against the doctrine you hold and for VERY good reason, since it teaches that these words of Christ do not apply to me and are not for me. And so many Christians believing the same thing, do not repent of the evil they do towards their brethren, and so will in the end suffer the eternal penaties of Hell.
Now the problem with this is that amongst those truly good Christians who have also accepted this doctrine are those who need to come to repentance and will not, simply because of the over emphisis on grace, they take the doctrine for a licence to sin and continue behaving in the same manner they did before they became a Christian. But usually those who are not like this do not see how this doctrine leads to the practice and non repentance of evil, and so in effect become “enablers” by continuing to spread the doctrine.
Again what Jesus taught here is also what Paul taught.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast
I could keep going here, but the point is that these are the commandments that Jesus was referring to along with all else of what he taught. And anything in the Old Testament law, that teaches one how to treat others would also apply. Even the sabbath days rest applies in that you should not oppress those who work for you, by giving them a day off. Man was not made for the sabbath but the sabbath for man. Hence God worked, God rested, man works and man needs to rest also. Every law of God was given to protect others from your evil carnal nature. And every saying and teaching of Christ, was to endeavor to lead you to repent so that you would not harm others and ultimately harm yourself by sending yourself straight to hell, if you do not repent.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The curse of the Law will still be fulfilled on those who walk according to the flesh and not after the spirit of love in Christ Jesus. That means not only the whole world but also every Christian who dose not walk in love nor teaches that we should do his commandments. Since the dispensational view teaches that his commandments are not written to you, then they are actually fulfilling part of what Jesus said here, in that they do not do nor teach people to keep his commandment.
I would also add most importantly that walking in love which is waling in the spirit, is keeping the sayings and commandments of Jesus Christ. It is not some FEELING, it is not something the spirit makes you do, it is not always being sweet as pie, it is simply KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS, and by that I mean leaning the teachings of Jesus Christ, and then the apostles and how what the apostles like Paul and the rest fit INTO what Jesus already taught as the foundation of the truth and the faith.
John laid this out clearly, and John got his final revelation far later than Paul, having lived much longer than Paul.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1 John 5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
What did Jesus say? He told his aposltes that if they loved him they would keep his commandments. And it is in keeping his commandments, his teachings that we truly love others, because love works no ill to it's neighbor. I don't believe that dispensationaism teaches that you have to keep the commandments of Christ, since the cut out the gospels as even being applyed to you in this day and time.
Having believed it once I am now of the opinion that it is a wicked evil belief and a wrong dividing of God's word, and it's sending many ultimately into great tribulation, torment and eventually the fires of hell itself. I don't care where you got your's I just know it's the very same thing that basically endeavored to steal my life and my relationship with Jesus Christ and is sending many of my friends and family to hell. I am not surprised that you learned this all on your own, since there is a spirit of error within Christianity in general, that can lead any one any where right into this very belief and all it's ornaments all on thier own.
quote:
in christ, larris, doesn't whitewash your shamelessly insulting posts. Can you even define humility and meekness??? Please deal with the questions I have begged you to explain!!
Not to claim to know anything about you, but maybe you are offended because I DID NOT WHITE WASH what I thought of your method of dividing God's word. I did not attack you PERSONALLY, I attacked your interpretation of the Bible, and I cannot help it if that is insulting to you. I truly wish that there would have been someone around to insult me on what I use to believe it would have saved me a LOT of heart ache. Even more I wish that there would have been someone around to just lead me to the truth when I first got into the Word, that also would have saved me a lot of heartache, more than I can ever say. I believe Eteranl loss and consiquences are the results of the doctrine you believe, and I sincerely hope that in the end you get delivered from it.
As to what I am saying and your reaction to it, I had the same reation to a man I once listened to who was saying there was no pretrib rapture, I thought he was so insulting just because it questioned what I held most dear. Then 7 years later while studying the scriptures, and going through every use of the word "resurrection", I saw myself that there was no pre-trib rapture and that I would be going through the tribulation if I was alive when it came. At the time the whole idea and thought scared me, since I didn't know other's believed such a thing. But then after a few days, it was brought to my memory the man I had heard saying the same thing years earlier.
You know your view, your interpretation, regardless of who else believes it, is only one of MANY and obvioulsly someone here is WRONG. Maybe ALL of us are WRONG. People get offended when you tell them they are WRONG.
You wanted to know the definition of humility and meekness, it's a person who dose not get offended when they are told they are WRONG. Or if they do get offended they recover themselves. A humble person a meek person is someone who can be taught, someone who can accept criticism, someone who can think they might not be right about everything. And someone who dose not get offended when others think they are WRONG.
In Christ pre Acts, mid Acts, and post Acts
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/7/2004 10:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
1way to Scott: Don't feel too bad, Larris may mean well, but speaking so many false presumptions presents many problem not easily corrected. I ask him about the nature of the revelation for this dispensation, and he never responds commensurately, instead he picks a tangent rabbit trail and off he goes. So I guess that is like winning the point by no contest. (chuckles) Go figure.
(chuckles) one thing about it we have the very same opinion of one another.
I have also descided that this is a pretty fruitless conversation, that you are going to convince me of nothing and that I will convince you of nothing, and that in the end it's just turning out to be a real time sucker. If a peron is really seeking the truth and they fall into error, eventually God will lead you two out of it as he did me.   (chuckles)
In Christ PRE Acts, Mid Acts and POST Acts,
Larris
PS. I tell you something else no one is going to win this game by "default".
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/8/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Larris,
If you truly are concerned about me, cut out the condescending insults. I've already said if you'll be patient with you, I'll debate this thing with you. If you don't have the patience, we might as well stop now. I don't, as you implied, get offended when people disagree with me. I get offended when people start insulting me before an honest debate can take place. I see a lot of ideas on forums, including some of yours, that I disagree with. But what good does it do to start insulting people before you give them the chance to defend their view. Thats just plain UNETHICAL!!!!
I don't have time to respond today, but I'll be right back at you tomorrow if you still want to debate. Let me know, lest I'm wasting my time, which I have very little of.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/8/2004 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | might-be-don - Great point. And welcome to this thread. Paul (and others) often write in response to a group of believer's state of belief and spiritual growth, or lack therein.
We even commonly reason backwards from answers to the unwritten questions to such a degree of certainty, that we say, this is what they were asking about, this is the unwritten struggle they were experiencing, we know this is so because of the nature of the answers and contextual build up, even though the questions and struggles may not even be specifically stated. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/8/2004 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
POW - So by your answer, you do not know if one should believe all things without exception or not.
My post is on page three. Go back and read it again. I did not post what you claim I did.
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/8/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | POW, if you have an answer to the question, the please state it. I RESPONDED to your post, so silly, of course I know where it is, this is an extension of that same discussion. Still wanting an answer from you about the presumption you hold concerning
believing all things
Does that mean, all things without exception, or does that mean all things with limitations, and why? Don't worry, if you dodge this question again, I sometimes learn quickly, you do not want to answer or you have no answer, the rest of us will discuss it knowing you offer no cogent answer. | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/8/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting... the thought had been rambling through my mind that much of the letters need to be read with "correction" in mind.
Chances are that if the thought has been ramling through your mind, the holy spirit kicked it in there. Are they "correction", yes, and is there "doctrine" in them? Yes. And is there "reproof" in them? Yes, but are they some special secret doctrine outside of any thing Jesus taught now written in the Gospels, or the Apostles taught in the book of Acts? No.
In fact I am fully persuaded and totally convinced that if a person dose not disciple himself into the teahcings of Jesus now written in the gospels, and makes a whole new foundation out of a few of Pauls letters, that they are building a false foundation not founded upon Christ. Hence when the rains come and the winds blow, their whole house is going to crumble.
The gospels lay the foundational understanding for everything Paul later wrote to anyone. So you if you take his letters out of that context, you wind up making his letters into their very own special gospel, and laying a false faulty foundation of Jesus Christ in a persons life. Which is the whole point of the teaching that makes Paul's letters some special secret not revealed to anyone else. After all Satan is going to hell and he want's to take everyone he can get right along with him.
The dispensational teaching that only Pauls' select letters addressed to you in this day and time, teach people to DENY CHRIST and to DENY HIS WORDS, because those words do not APPLY to you. The reason it is so deceptive is because of all the well meaning Christians out there that pretty much practiced a lot of things that Jesus taught even before they knew Jesus taught them. They can't seem to get it through their heads that not every believer is just like them, and actually needs to be taught HOW to be as he is. And so they become "enablers" becuase they don't see how the doctrine they pass on leads others to NON REPENTANCE OF SIN, by teaching them a form of grace that says you don't actually have to do what Jesus said to do. It teaches you are SO SPECIAL that no matter what you do, since you are in my "special" Church, that you will not be held accountable for your words and actions like those in other dispensations.
In other words it takes away the judgment of God and the FEAR of the Lord, and leads those who were bound in sin and darkness to continue practicing the same things, while confessing the name of Christ, and falsely thinking they know the truth and are heaven bound NO MATTER WHAT. But "Mr. Good Christian" who's all wrapped up in this, will say, "Well I don't see how it teaches that, it never did that to me." But that is becasue he never had the problems to begin with, or if he had any of them, he didn't have the type of heart, that allowed him to continue in them.
What Christians do not realize is that everyone dose not have the same heart, nor the same problems, nor the same degree of darkness in which they walk, nor the same kinds nor degrees of SIN. But God the all wise FATHER knows that he needs different motivations for his different and diverse children. Some are naturally good, never seem to do much wrong, neithe before they came to Christ, nor after.
Others, were in fact REAL sinners, had many bad sinful habbits in their life, and therefore had to change a LOT after they came to Christ. Now some of these all they had to do was have it even hinted at that they should not do such things and they repented. But others were the type of children that needed a somewhat mroe sever motivation, in the terms of the teaching of eteranl consiquences, even IF you are one of God's children. In other words JUDGMENT, your going to be judged, you are going to get you rear end kicked if you do not straighten up. Anyone who has ever had any children knows that different things motivate different children.
We talk and debate about the rapture, when it is pre, mid, post. We talk and debate about the secret mystry suposedly given to Paul but the real point of dispensational teaching lied behind NONE of these things. Rather it's real point is to turn the original gospel of grace into a licence to SIN, by taking away the true knowledge that every single Christian will be judged for the things he dose and says in this body. Taking away judgment by teaching an over abundance of grace that requires NOTHING after it's given, leads to the understanding in many who walked in darkness that they can continue in sin, and still receive all the promises and eternal life promised to those who keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
These are the children of disobedience becasue they are taught they do not have to be obedient. Or they are taught the spirit will make them be obeidient, and therefore while waiting around for the spirit to make them do it, they practice all kinds of abominable things, contrary to the doctrine of Christ, that teaches you should repent and bring forth works meet for salvation.
These are bastards, who because they have not received the words of the Lord Jesus Christ AFTER they have believed on him, make themselves illigetimate children of God, by not confoming themselves to his image, and not being chastened by him, since 99 percet of the Word of God that would chasten and instruct them has been CUT OUT of the Scripture as being applied to them. And those who are not bastards by nature, those wonderful, loving, righteous Christians, enable those of us who were and are bastards to continue in our bastardization, by confirming and teaching their "special gospel",
I can say all of this with such authority since I was a BASTARD child of God for years, due to dispensational teaching! And I use the term not in the modern vernacular, but according to the usage of that of an illigetimate child born our of wedlock, and the same meaning of how the word "bastard" is used in Hebrews.
Excuse me if I hurt someone's feelings by saying these things. After all it's just my PTSD, Post Tramatic Stress Disorder caused by finding out after over 11 years of being commited to what I thought was the truth, that it was actually a complete and total lie taught to me by the very people I respected and loved. And now of course half my friends and aquaintences are heading right to hell from the very gospel I GOT THEM IN TO.
When the Lord showed me through his Word (ALL OF IT) the lies I had received, and then led me to repentance, I also then went back to every one I could find to tell them, that I had led them into a LIE.
And you know what? I'd done it so well, that they wouldn't even believe me. Except that is for one person, who's heart was called to repentace. There is no greater pain than to know that you have basically destroyed someone's life by filling their head with so much twisted logic as to pervert them eternally from the knowledge of the truth. Isiah said that IF the pastors would have taught the truth, His (God's) people would have followed it. Therefore God's wrath is going to come upon these people to the very most, and shocked they will be when the "gathering" dose not come, and they are not secretly raptured out of here.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/8/2004 1:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Larris - You have stated virtually nothing of my faith that is accurate. You are stressed, and you do not answer the biblical issue about the nature of the revelation, so while I think I understand your frustration (except for the PTSD, Post Tramatic Stress Disorder, that I do not specifically understand or know what you mean or if you are serious or not), I can neither condone nor sympathize with your behavior, and I condemn your false accusations for being exactly that.
For you to think that by teaching what Paul teaches means to violate the teachings of Christ is only absurd, Jesus is the same God who gave Paul His hidden never before revealed revelation that was specifically entrusted to Paul, the teachings for this dispensation, so it's impossible for us to violate Christ's word, we are following and teaching it.
You mock Paul's gospel and his authority and the uniqueness of the revelation that was given to him, saying that our gospel leads people to hell. Your a twisted abusive person, you do not even reason respectfully, you just tell tell tell and vent your frustrations as though we should be your door mat while you stomp on us disgust. I have no company with such unChrist-likeness.
You never have, and apparently you never will, face the fact of the uniqueness of the revelation that was strictly given to Paul for this dispensation. So we are not in discussion, despite my open attempts to do so.
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/9/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott - There are various forms of insult. I agree with your general statements against larris's behavior but not simply on the grounds of insult, but rather on the grounds of inappropriate personal attack. The bible is chuck full of the righteous being insulting to the unrighteous, insult is hardly the correct balancing point for right and wrong behavior.
Humanity applies
The fact is that all of mankind will not believe exactly alike on all things, so disagreements are only to be expected. So unless the disagreement represents a clear moral wrong, we should be brotherly and patient through it all. One is not dumb or bound to hell because they disagree with a manmade tradition, we are wrong if we disagree with God and His word, and we only deserve harsh personal rejection if we are grossly immoral or teaching heresy or blasphemy, aside from that, we should afford each other the same sort of graces that even Paul and Peter enjoyed and sometimes were insulting to the face.
Our two personal examples We charge their camp as being wrong for making the same what God made different, but they rest their faith on the word of God. So we do not condemn them as outright heretics and going to hell.
They charge us with doing wrong for accepting what God made different, but we rest our faith on the word of God. So they should not condemn us as outright heretics and going to hell. People can be sincerely mistaken
I think that the Catholic faith is apostate and is more like a cult than a Christian sect, but, I do not condemn all Catholics because some of the better ones are bad Catholics and belief much like we Protestants believe. So I agree that personal animosity should not be the focus, but rightly understanding God's word should be the focus, as grace comforts us even though we do not all think and believe alike.
Foundational issues matter
Also, I agree with keeping the posts much smaller as it is a given that your view has sway over so many passages, that is not the point, first get the foundational issues well established and then go from there. From our perspective, if the revelation for this dispensation was truly unique and hidden in God until it was given to Paul, then all subsequent considerations to the contrary are fully beside the point. They must deal with that issue, or else the foundational problem will remain at contention. Get to the foundational issues, forget the secondary and resultant stuff, they are not as foundational and thus as important. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/9/2004 10:50 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp - I did not realize that I had missed responding to any of your posts. Actually, I think I had missed your point of clarification on one, as I did not notice it before, the small post about the love chapter dated 06/04/2004. I did not respond to your point where you said. quote:
Some newer translations render the Greek word, "panta" in this verse as "always." That is, "love always hopes, always believes, always endures," (the object of love, of course, always being GOD). One translation renders the phrase, "always trusts God."
That seems to make much more sense to me.
I have to extrapolate a little bit from that response to get an answer out of it, but you are being fairly clear. Here is a form of my question that I had earlier posed. quote:
So, what context is there to clarify "believing all things"? I realize there is one, but the immediate context does not clearly spell it out. ...
... Please explain the context that actually shapes your understanding of verse 7.
You that "of course, the object of love is always God". Even saying that one translation renders the phrase, "always trusts God".
First, God's love towards us is not just focused on Himself as much as it is on others. God loves us even before we are a part of Himself (Ro 5:8 loved-while-yet sinners). God loves other things besides Himself, He loves man and angels for example. He died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God, but, He did that for us, calling us His friends, saying quote:
Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
And so that being the case, unless God's love at the cross was some lesser love, we should believe that God's love is other's centered, not self centered.
Secondly, that does not seem like a "translation", it looks more like a bad paraphrase or commentary. God is not "all things". God is not even in all things. quote:
1Ki 19:11 Then He said, "Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, [but] the LORD [was] not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, [but] the LORD [was] not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.
Your first post in this thread
I still appreciate you bringing over your post from your originating thread, like I said, I would have copied it over here myself if you hadn't done that. But your post did not exactly address my point, but you were close when you said quote:
In all the places where Paul refers to "the mystery" or "the revelation of the mystery," the immediate context reveals precisely what he refers to--
At least you tried to deal with the nature of the mystery revelation in question, but you went off on tangents and did not address my point in particular. My Eph 3 post goes on at great length on this exact topic and was well prompted by your post for me to do so, and I think you have yet to respond to that post. You also said. quote:
Paul's use of the term "mystery" is identical to the way Christ used it:
Thus clinching the lack of understanding over what I am trying to convey. Please review my Eph 3 post for the nature of the revelation point, and then to see how that understanding fits into this dispensation more fully, see my 6 point scripture post for a broader treatment of the uniqueness of this revelation for this dispensation, but you have to get Eph 3 solidly first. I await your (specific) response over both of those posts. Wait!!! On second thought, please see the bottom of this post for more.
And as for your other thread, I talked about the rapture, you disagree, and so I am even still yet trying to get people to see why I believe in the pretrib rapture by first establishing the nature of the revelation that was strictly given to Paul. It is the foundation for my view, and so far no one is really touching it except Jefscott, and he is only basically agreeing with it, that is about it.
Sorry for missing your one point within your one post about love, it was an honest mistake. I hardly find that grounds for charging me with aversion. Me on the other hand, it's been pages and pages in this post, and I have yet to get anyone to hone in on my only main point. However, early, we all can claim a fair amount of progressive revelation, because I did not start out focused only on the nature of the revelation for this dispensation.
In fact, because I have not gotten much reasonable responses on that issue. I guess I will make another thread and be more precise with it's name, and post the two posts that I feel best describe what I am getting at to help everyone stay focused on that single issue.
We can keep this thread for the mystery and rapture stuff, including the love chapter stuff too. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/9/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
John Earp - I did not realize that I had missed responding to any of your posts. Actually, I think I had missed your point of clarification on one, as I did not notice it before, the small post about the love chapter dated 06/04/2004. I did not respond to your point where you said. [quote]Some newer translations render the Greek word, "panta" in this verse as "always." That is, "love always hopes, always believes, always endures," (the object of love, of course, always being GOD). One translation renders the phrase, "always trusts God."
Sorry that I was unclear in my first response to your question, 1way. I meant to say that OUR love always should be first and foremost for God, and only THEN can we truly love others--because God's love dwells in our hearts FIRST.
As to the rest of your post, it seems to me that you have simply asserted that this alleged Pauline special revelation dispensationalism is true, and from that primary assumption you claim the pretrib rapture is true. However, as Scripture itself does not clearly reveal your claims to be true it does not seem reasonable to me to accept your premises. Sorry to be such a "Bible thumper," but if you're going to assert something, please prove it from Scripture (in context). So far your argument seems to be completely circular.
Blessings,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/9/2004 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | might be don, and John,
Thank you for your encouragement. Thank you John for the references, I look forward to reading them. I too associated in the AOG for a time.
don, I will be glad to give you examples of what you asked for and have been working on some things, but it will be in a day or two since I have to go to work.
God bless,
In the love of Christ, pre, mid and post Acts
larris
PS. Jeff, if your an "old guy" then there's no time to waist.  (just joking.)
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/9/2004 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earp - The thread for the nature of the revelation of Eph 3:3 & 3:9, especially the first post, is not circular reasoning. I lay down the foundation for my belief as derived from scripture. The only assumption I claim one may hold is that this teaching from scripture should be believed and trusted. I don't see that as being circular. You said quote:
As to the rest of your post, it seems to me that you have simply asserted that this alleged Pauline special revelation dispensationalism is true, and from that primary assumption you claim the pretrib rapture is true.
Please drop your preconceptions about this entire system of dispensationalism. Let just deal with one single and thus simpler issue. And that is just the nature of the revelation. The only reason I mention "for this dispensation", is so that we all know which revelation we are referring to. So please pretend like that nasty old dispensationalism thing is done and settled, no worries. Just deal with this one single issue, one more doable step at a time.
How do you evaluate the following statement? God's word is true because it is true. Your answer may help me understand more clearly your thinking. For me, that statement is circular only if you take the statement as a subjective opinion. But, if the reason God's word is true, is because it is objectively true, then it is an objectively accurate non-circular statement.
As to the love bit, I think that you are certainly sharing your faith and being sincere and clear.
However, my question remains unanswered. I will now represent the most clear articulation I have whittled down so far.
What is your response to the following.
1Co 13:4 Love suffers long [and] is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. So is that
believes all things without exception?
Or is that
believes all things with implied exceptions?
What is the unwritten presumption that rightly limits the range of meaning involved for verse 7?
Here is an example of the sort of answer I am looking for. The teaching "Love believes all things" means that godly love is limited to believing ... ... ... , because the unwritten assumption is ... ... ... , so of course that means that we do not believe all things without exception, instead we believe all things ... ... ... . I am not saying that the surrounding context and chapter lends no further development at all. What I am saying is that the writer most certainly is holding an unwritten assumption that he definitely expects us to understand especially over verse 7, so that when we find him saying
'love" ... "believes all things"
we rightly and reasonable rule out the idea that we are to believe all things without exception. Obviously we are not to believe against God. So please explain the unwritten presumption this passage assumes in order to make verse 7 make perfect sense. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/9/2004 2:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
POW, if you have an answer to the question, the please state it. I RESPONDED to your post, so silly, of course I know where it is, this is an extension of that same discussion. Still wanting an answer from you about the presumption you hold concerning
believing all things
Does that mean, all things without exception, or does that mean all things with limitations, and why?
THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS TO BE FOUND w i t h i n LOVE. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/9/2004 3:22 PM (GMT -6) | | John and Larris,
I only have time for the antinomianism charge. I take it the two of you suppose that dispensationalist doctrine is that a Christian can live ANY way and still be saved. There is truth and falsehood to that statement. Consider the following verses from 1 Corinthians which bring to clarity Paul's doctrine:
6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners,5 practicing homosexuals, 6:10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive,7 and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:1 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with his father’s wife. 5:2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you? 5:3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 5:4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5:5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
11:30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 11:31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.
Taken together, the verses teach that IF the Corinthians did NOT judge themselves, God WOULD judge/discipline them, even unto death, least they be condemned with the world. Thus, in one sense, it doesn't matter what the Corinthian did, he/she would be saved. In another sense, God would ensure that they WOULDN'T live just ANY OLE WAY - even if He had to KILL them.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/10/2004 3:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jeff:Taken together, the verses teach that IF the Corinthians did NOT judge themselves, God WOULD judge/discipline them, even unto death, least they be condemned with the world. Thus, in one sense, it doesn't matter what the Corinthian did, he/she would be saved. In another sense, God would ensure that they WOULDN'T live just ANY OLE WAY - even if He had to KILL them.
You go from 6:9 to 5:1-5 and 11:30 which "taken together" out of context do not only change the whole understanding of what Paul was saying, but do exactly as I have stated by keeping those bound in immorality by non repentace of sin.
Let us first take how you have taken 11:30 out of context. As you read the whole book together and take it in it's natural sequence Paul deals with DIFFERENT subjects. From 11:1-16 he deals with the line of authority from God to Christ to husband to wife as it should be observed when the Church comes together. THEN in 17 he starts a new subject.
First of all 11:30 states FOR THIS CAUSE many are weak and sickly among you. And then you put it with verses of scripture five chapters previous to this. You cannot do this and rightly divide the scriptures, especially when by this time Paul is dealing with a completely different subject. The words "FOR THIS CASUSE..." refer back to the direct subject at hand which you have left out which was:
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
The reason the CAUSE for why many were weak and sickly among them etc. was because THEY WERE NOT DISCERNING THE LORD'S BODY.
Now the question would be WHAT IS, "Not discerning the Lord's body"? And for that we can't to to chapter 1 verse 1 we need to find out right here where Paul wrote it.
The previous statement to this is:
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
The CAUSE of why many were weakly and sickly and many slept was that they were NOT DISCERNING THE LORD'S BODY, and had to do with coming together to eat the Lord's supper in remembrance of him.HOWEVER this still dose not tell us what they were doing wrong in the eating of the Lord's Supper in remembrance of him, that was inappropriate. Hence we have to read what he said immediately before this.
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
Some of them had been eating and drinking it up, "partying" before they came together with the rest of the Church to partake all together of the Lord's Supper. While some of them came there hungry expecting to feast it up. These things they did because of the pagan culture they were in before they came to the Lord. They took the time of the Lord's supper as a time like the heathen did in thier idol temples, for occasions of drunkeness and gluttony, losing sight entirely of the significance of the Lord's Supper.
But there was more than this that they did, which is in the statements preceeding this one.
1 Cor. 11: 17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
The FIRST problem they had in comming together for the Lord's supper, and not discerning the Lord's body, leading to weakness, sickliness and death WAS, instead of all being like minded in the faith, there had developed "divisons" leading to "heresies" among them. Vine defines heresies as: an opinion, especially a self-willed opinion which is substituted for submission to the power of truth, and leads to division and the formation of sects.
So first of all they becoming divided and getting in their own littel cliques. Such erroneous opinions were then as they are now frequently the outcome of personal preference or the prospect of advantage. Read Jude because he describes perfectly what finally developed in some of these meetings. Those who seperated themselves off as "special", having their own personal preferential opinions and favorite friends were shaming other believers who were not in thier little group. Hence they were not discerning the Lord's body, the ONE BODY, the body of Christ composed of all other believers. They had their own little private partys going on here and were shaming those who were not in their group.
So lets read it again.
1 Cor. 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
This has NOTHING to do with the subject he was addressing in chapters 5 and 6. In 5 and 6 he is specifically addressing a certain situation regarding a man they allowed to continue meeting in the Church who was blatently and according to the knowledge of all, commiting a certain type of fornication.
1 Cor. 5:1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Here we are talking not about snotty cliques, not about discerning the Lord's body and eating the Lord's supper. Here we are talking about a certain idividual who was committing a type of fornication of which the whole church had knowledge of and had not reproved or corrected him for it. Instead with the full knowledge of what he was doing they continued to allow him to come to the meetings. This would have the effect of leading others to think that they could do the same thing and it would just be OK.
When Paul tells them to deliver this man over to Satan, for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, he is telling them to correct him with sound doctrine and then put him out of the Church. That is not allow him to meet with them uless he repented and quit doing what he was doing. For when you are put out of the Church you are put out to Satan, who then has the authority to torment you, and eventually cause your all out death, if you do not repent.
After reading this letter the Corinthians did as Paul commanded them, the man was reproved with the love of God and the word of God and told not to come back till he straightend out. THEN in Paul's second letter to them, we can see that the man did in fact repent and was allowed back into the Church.
2 Cor. 2:1 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; (referring to 1st letter to the Corinthians.) not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
Now next he speaks of the results of the situation of putting that individual out of the Church.
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
The man repented and came back and Paul was telling them to welcome him with open arms and confirm their love towards him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
He wrote to see if they themselves would repent of letting the man continue in known sin and not reprove him and put him out of the Church. The man repented, was allowed back by the members of the Church.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Putting him out of the Church was practicing "tough love". The reason they allowed him to stay in the Church was becasue they loved him. In putting him out of the Church, the action drove him to be sorry, then to crucify his affection and lust for this woman and get out of the relationship. Had he not repented and come back his spirit WOULD NOT BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus because FORNICATORS have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God. The don't just "die", they loose their opportunity for eternal life.
I've seen the same thing go on in many Churches, they know somone is in bondage to great sin, that they are activly practicing it, and yet they continue to allow them to come to Church and do not endeavor to correct them with love by doing as God says to do. Consiquently not only do they often not repent, others start picking up the same habbits. That is why Paul also said in the very next words after telling them to put him out of the Church etc.
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
"Old leaven" for the Corinthians would be to allow fornication in the assembly since they practiced forniction and prostitution as a means of worshipping their previous pagan gods. Staying with the context that is WHY he next says:
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
However again the man repented and was allowed back into the Church becoming and example for all, that such things would not be allowed.
So we have two different subjects in the scriptures you gave, and you can't grab a verse that contextually and as to subject matter is different than another and just put them together to form a false picture. I realize you did not do this on purpose, but the effect is the same, namely the wrong dividing of God's word, which leads people who have sin problems to continue in them.
There are a LOT of people who regardless of weather or not they might die physically from it, will always continue in their sin. After all if you think that you have eternal life, and will be with the Lord, dying is not so bad. That is why people need to understand the truth that such behavior is going to cause not just physical death, but ultimately eternal death by placing one in hell in eternal torment, once they KNOW fornication is wrong it becomes great sin to keep practicing it, as is the other sins.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/10/2004 10:02 AM (GMT -6) | | larris - Your post contained 2775 words, which has become a typical gargantuan size for you, and that is besides your initial quote. If we were talking in person, because of how you constantly go on and on about what you think is right, even regardless if we say that what you are saying is not quite congruent to our discussion, most people would call that being a (__fill in the blank__).
Yet in your opening paragraph, you are caught immediately in the wrong, as such your post is an effort in futility and error. You said quote:
You go from 6:9 to 5:1-5 and 11:30 which "taken together" out of context do not only change the whole understanding of what Paul was saying, but do exactly as I have stated by keeping those bound in immorality by non repentace of sin.
He plainly said that we should JUDGE ourselves first so as to keep God's judgment from being against us. That is a demonstration of repentance! It can not mean, judge yourselves and then after you've determined that you are wrong, just continue doing it anyway. For that unrepentant and silly sort of judgment would not inhibit God's judgment in the least, in fact, it would be worse upon us for first knowing full well that what we were doing was wrong, yet we did it anyway!
Would you please briefly explain your distress disorder/syndrome that you only mentioned earlier. It is only fitting that we should know and respect it if you have a certain disorder so that we may respond to you more appropriately.
You are a person who jumps to extremes and you seem to have a penitent for imagining faults in others that do not (or may not) exist. Your mammoth posts are filled with subjective and false accusations against your brethren in Christ.
Occasional long posts are fine, but not at the expense of sufficient mutual understanding and all due respect.
Grace and peace in the Body of Christ,
1Way | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/10/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | POW - God's love is cool isn't it. It considers the benefit of others, and is kind, not rude.
While I appreciate your "attempts" at response, your answers leave something to be desired. For clarification, you quoted me saying quote:
POW, if you have an answer to the question, the please state it. I RESPONDED to your post, so silly, of course I know where it is, this is an extension of that same discussion. Still wanting an answer from you about the presumption you hold concerning
believing all things
Does that mean, all things without exception, or does that mean all things with limitations, and why?
To which you said quote:
THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS TO BE FOUND w i t h i n LOVE.
So, although you continue to not answer the question about the meaning of love concerning "BELIEVING ALL THINGS", you still put on the outward appearance of personal understanding.
So my brother (of a certain amount of helpfulness). If _L_O_V_E_ is the location of the answer, and you know this to be true, then has your experience with LOVE somehow helped you understand how it is that LOVE ...
... believes all things ...
??? Or is the "love" you represent not quite that capable and meaningfully congruent with God's word?
Is it ok for the love in question (1Cor 13) to believe that the devil is the true God of the universe and that Jesus is a false prophet and is not our savior? If not, on what basis can you say that since, according to you, love believes all things (i.e. 1Co 13). ???
In the way truth and life
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