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1way
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/1/2004 4:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | Scott - Well, although I know a bit about that view, to clarify, I suppose you mean that Paul spoke about some yet future (like end times) things as though it was supposed to happen way back then? The end is near, that sort of thing.
I would tend to agree with them to some extent, yes, it was suppose to happen way back then, also, Paul recieved progressive revelation such that clarity over end times issues came latter much like Paul started out water baptizing people, and then later practically bragged that he stopped doing that, and same sort of thing happened with the frequency of miracles, at first, Paul did miracles, and then later they just seemed to die away.
But I think more importantly than that would be to understand that although God has a very clear cut prophetic plan with Israel, He also can repent from bringing those prophesies to pass on the basis of Jer 18, the Potter and the Clay. So, I would tell the Preterist, which by the way, I really disdain that viewpoint, I would say that they should learn to allow the general prophetic scripture of Jer 18.1-10 especially 7-10, to be fulfilled in the case of Israel in the NT when He cut them off due to national unbelief, and that by doing so, God ushered in a prophetic exception or parenthesis where in this dispensation, anything but what God was going to do with Israel, is what we would expect for this dispensation. We are living in a dispensation that is like anti-prophetic plan with Israel, because God raised us up in total rejection of all that, He raised us up and put Israel on hold, and so naturally when God is done with us, He will pick right back up with a national focus back on Israel, and the end times prophetic scheme will pick back up where it left off way back then.
And that was a wonderful question to ask, because it can really help folks to understand why it is that as an Acts 9 12 out dispensationalist, I see Paul's rapture as being unique and not according to God's prophetic plan with Israel. That is the last thing we should expect, is a teaching in this dispensation that mimics some prophetic teaching for Israel. They are cut off (for a time) and we are grafted in, that is the whole point, our dispensation is different on purpose. Also, we are supposed to make Israel jealous! So if we had all the same teachings for how to be in right standing with God today as they did back then, then it would be very hard to imagine how we would make them jealous in order to win them back to God. Much more reasonable, is for God to make our relationship with God more gracious than their dispensation. I mean we have it really easy compared to them, so every which way we look, it is according to God's brilliant plan that this dispensation is not according to other revelation.
So, I hope that either we will get to the bottom of the unique nature of the mystery aspect for this entire dispensation, or, maybe we will even get to the unique teachings of these various mysteries. Foundational issues first, the nature of the mysterious hidden not otherwise revealed teachings for this dispensation that was strictly given to Paul to give to us.
God, teaches that this dispensation is one of mystery, that was kept secret in Him and as such is not according to any other revelation!
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John Earp
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| Posted 6/1/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Reposting the most part of a post I made in the other thread. I find 1way's use of the term "mystery" to be highly suspect, given the NT usage of the term, which is consistent throughout the NT, including Paul, Jesus, and John.
In all the places where Paul refers to "the mystery" or "the revelation of the mystery," the immediate context reveals precisely what he refers to--the Gospel of salvation to the Gentiles (all people, not just Jews), Christ in you the hope of glory (sanctificaton), the nature of the resurrection body, "the mystery of godliness," which is revealed in the verses that follow:
1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest (revealed), and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (note: Paul is referring to the Gospel here).
1 Cor. 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
(Note again that the mystery is no longer a mystery but has been revealed to us by His Spirit).
Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(Ditto to the previous passage--the mystery is now revealed in Christ).
Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
In all the above examples the mystery is not something that is STILL a mystery--for Paul says it has been revealed. The fact that he can refer to this "mystery" with so little need for explanation indicates that the churches under his apostleship already were well informed as to what "the mystery" was.
Col. 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: 4 That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
Paul was placed in bonds not for keeping something secret or mysterious, but for proclaiming the Gospel (as the account in Acts well documents).
In none of the passages where Paul refers to "the mystery" does he refer to what is known of as "the rapture." The only passage that even comes close to depicting a mysterious end-times scenario is:
2 Thess. 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.
First, it is crucial to note that the mystery of God is nowhere referenced in this passage. It is said to be "the mystery of lawlessness." So unless we are going to accuse God of promoting lawlessness, I think we need to rethink the idea that this refers to anything other than the immediate context plainly reveals--the "mystery" of lawlessness in general, for Paul says it is ALREADY at work.
Second, no time-frame with regard to the pre-, post-, mid, or ANY theory of the precise timing of the catching away of the saints (which all truly orthodox Christians believe will happen, whatever their eschatology) is referred to in the 2 Thess. passage above. Just like 1 Thess. 4, this passage fits ANY eschatological theory.
Paul's use of the term "mystery" is identical to the way Christ used it:
Mark 4:11 - And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
1way, I would really be interested in precisely what passages you base your understanding of the "mystery" as referring to the pretrib rapture or to modern dispensationalism in general.
Interesting discussion.
John Earp
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1way
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| Posted 6/1/2004 7:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Scott - The rest of scripture is according to revelation that is in full accordance with God's prophetic plans for Israel. So they are like an anti-thesis in terms of God's teachings for this dispensation when you consider "Israel and prophecy".
God's plan with Israel is highly prophetic and it is highly revealed, but the teachings for today in this dispensation are contrasted against all that for the specific reason that God has purposefully cut off national Israel out of the blessing and prophetic focus, but in the next dispensation, God will pick right back up with them where He left off prior to this dispensation.
So when you consider why it is that God even started up this current dispensation, then God's teachings make more and more sense about why He clarified that they are according to no other revelation, they are unique teachings that are specifically for us, so learn from and imitate Paul, follow his example and teachings and do not mix up together as the same, what God clarifies as exclusive or different.
Now, if you neglect that God cut off Israel and grafted us in, then maybe you will have problems understanding all this. But if you accept that teaching, and also Jer. 18 the Potter and the Clay, then you can more easily understand that God is doing something very special and unique with us in the dispensation of Grace and mystery, because you even know why these differences were implemented.
Non-Pauline writings are specifically for those under the law, they are most concerned with the nation of Israel and God's prophetic revelation about them. They can teach many things, including "absolute" or "general" or "cross-dispensational" truth, so we can certainly learn from them, but they are not designed for us, they are designed for those of the circumcision, which is basically for those in the last dispensation, and the next dispensation as well. I hope this helps. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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| Posted 6/1/2004 7:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Not Scott, but...
1way, all your post seems to me to be is a bunch of assumptions without clear scriptural warrant. Referring to "God's teachings," and "mystery," without demonstrating from Scripture itself that these ideas mean what you say they mean, is not a sound way to do theology. Anyone could begin with virtually any presupposition, claim it was "God's teaching" or "the mystery," and build their ideas with the same kind of circular logic you appear to me to be using. Without demonstrating HOW you have arrived at your conclusion through sound exegesis and interpretation of Scripture, especially recognizing the context of each prooftext, your statements are just your assertions based on your presuppositions. Show it to me in the Bible, please.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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1way
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| Posted 6/1/2004 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | John - I have a post started for you, and FYI, I would have copied your post over hear if you would not have, so thanks for your input and for following this thread. I may need some time to make a more fitting response. But I am really looking forward to dealing with your post.
Do you understand or accept my view on the nature of the hidden teachings for this dispensation? I can not really go into the pretrib stuff until after the issue of the unique teachings for this dispensation are sufficiently covered. I could answer so much right now, but there are several things going on. First things first. The mystery revelation needs to be well founded first, then the rapture will naturally follow.
Correction, now that I see your last post, I see that you doubt and question the nature of the teachings for this dispensation according to the way I shared about them. I agree that I did not set about to found that by scripture, I was responding to someone else after already doing a good deal of sharing my faith from specific scripture references, so this is sort of catching my thoughts mid stream. I'd be very happy to do a bible exposition on this issue, ASAP.
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1way
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| Posted 6/1/2004 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | John, it was and is a work in progress. My other thread is mentioned in the first post on this thread, and I would go back to my 10 point scripture post. But I was not geared up then for what I am doing exactly right now. Back then I was doing several things at once, and now I realize I need to isolate things and take things a bit slower. I know that I would emphasize Eph 3 as my key passage and go from there. But that post should help in the mean time, also, I think it's mostly just the first 6 points that apply to this stage of the discussion, although some more than others.
Better yet, see my post below with the 6 scripture points. | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/2/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | I know thoroughly all about the dispensational view of Pauls epistles, and espoused it for years. However quite unintentionally I came to find that most of the view is based on verses of scripture taken of the context in which Paul wrote them, and put together to form a false picture of what he really said.
For instance that the Church in this dispensation replaces Israel, those who are Jews according to the flesh, and that God changed his mind on what he said he would do with them ect.
Paul wrote the book of Romans to believers in Rome of whom some were Jews, and other Gentiles. He wrote the epistle as an epistle of reproff. Reproving them for their attitudes towards one another. The Christian Jews had an "attitude" towards the Christian Gentiles and in turn the Christian Gentiles had an "attitude" towards the Christian Jews. This attitude was of each towards the other one of thinking they were better for their own varrious reasons.
Paul addresses them all in general in the first verses of Romans, and then directly begins speaking to the Christian Jews regarding their attitude towards the Christian Gentiles. Then in chapter 11 he specifically addresses the Christian Gentiles concerning not only the Christian Jews, but Jews in general, and tells them some truth to straighten out thier upitty attitude. Only by lookiing at the WHOLE chapter in context can we see, that God's promises to Isreal in the flesh were in fact still in force and would be carried out, just as he'd promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Now Paul states exactly WHY God gave them a spirit of slumber, eyes to not see and hears to not hear.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
See what I mean, the Gentile Christian were "highminded" against both the Christian Jews and the Jews in General. Yet Paul states that they were just a wild olive brance that was grated into the olive tree of Israel, they were just a branch NOT THE TREE. They were not the MAIN trunk, and they could not exist without Isreal in general, both the unbelieving Israel and believing Israel.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Yes don't get high and mighty because he can just as easily blind you as he did them, if your attitude is not right concerning them.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee (you believing Gentiles), goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
God was able to graft you Gentile Christians into Isreal the trunk and the root of the true tree. And he is able to CUT you off just as he did SOME of the branches at the time Paul wrote this. He is also able to GRAFT THEM RIGHT BACK IN.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
What is Paul saying God is going to do once the fullness of the Gentiles are come into Israel? He's saying God IS GOING TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
That is something every Gentile Christian should get a handle on and get in their heart. That "as concerning the gosple, they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE." Did you GET THAT? THEY ARE ENEMIES FOR YOUR SAKE!
That means that God PURPOSELY BLINDED THEM, just for YOU! Just so salvation could be offered to the Gentiles of which you and I are. Be not high minded but FEAR, because if he didn't spare the natural brances, he might not spare thee either. The Gentile Chruch, high and mighty and upitty agaisnt the Jews can be just as easily blinded and CUT OFF as the Jews were. The ONLY reason the Jews didn't believer is because God PURPOSELY blinded them, purposely choose to let them suffer and not come into the kingdom promised to them, JUST SO SOME of the Gentiles could have an opportunity for salvation.
Now the next thing that Paul said is something else that every Gentile Christian should get firm in their heart.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye (GENTILES) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these (Jews according to geneology and decent from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
God purposely put them in unbelief, so that they would be equal to the Gentiles, and thus he would be able to offer his salvation to the Gentiles. He blinded them on purpose and he's going to UN-BLIND them again in the end, because of his promises to ABRAHAM, ISAAC and JACOB. They are under as much GRACE as you and I are.
God has allowed these people to be blinded on PURPOSE all along just so that he could SAVE SOME OF US OBSTINATE UNDESERVING GENTILES. Do you get what that means? That means that every single Jew who has ever been persicuted, tortured and died, was becasue of YOU! It isn't just Jesus who's died for YOUR SINS, it's all of Isreal.
God is able to save SOME of the Gentiles, by sacrificing many of the Jews. You and I wouldn't even have JESUS, if it wasn't for Israel, Jesus was a JEW, from a long line of JEWS. We're just a WILD olive branch that's been grafted INTO the tree of Israel. But Dispensational theology turns that around to make the wild grafted branch the WHOLE TREE. It userps the rightful place and endeavors to steal the inheritance of the people who God chose. And it endeavors to steal the promise God made to Abraham.
God's covenant with Israel according to the flesh, is that as soon as the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, as soon as that number is fulfilled, he will bring forth a deliverer out of Zion, and he (Jesus as his appearing) shall turn ungodliness away from Jacob (all those unbelieving Jews, that don't believe just for YOUR SAKE.) That is the time is coming when the VAIL is going to be taken off their face, and they will see THEIR LORD, and the spirit of SLUMBER will fall away from their minds and they will WAKE UP to the truth.
You've just got to love God, for making such a sacrifice, not only of his only begotten son, but of a WHOLE NATION. And you just have to LOVE ISRAEL, and love the Jews, for being an unwitting and unwilling part of that sacrifice. So the next time you watch Schlindler's List, or some such tail about the holocaust, remember everyone of them suffered and died, just so you and I could be born in a spoiled rotten country and get evangelized to believe in Jesus unto eternal life.
However there is one thing you don't want to do. You love Israel, love the Jews but DO NOT under any circumstances go to them for any instrucition of Bible interpretation, AFTER ALL GOD BLINDED THEM! There are so many Christians today, going WAY OVERBOARD, and becoming Gentile Jewish Christians, using Jewish methods of interpretation, and even giving themselves Jewish names. Now THAT is the bi-polar opposite of thinking you as a Gentile actually replace Israel, and that Israel is not longer the heir of God's promises not God's chosen people. You just got to find the balance folks.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
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| Posted 6/2/2004 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | It is important to understand the dispensation that we live in, and how it was teachings given to Paul not previously revealed prior to trying to figure out subsequent issues. The following is an adaptation with slight improvements from my first post on the other thread mentioned in the first post in this thread.
Pauline mystery teachings were not previously revealed to anyone else
The unique way of faith (dispensation teachings) that we have for today was strictly given to Paul and no one else. So we are living in the dispensation of Grace and Mystery such that our dispensation does not fit in with the rest of biblical prophesy, namely, the end times of trials of tribulations are not about us at all, they are about Israel.
God's word is not silent on these differences
Please consider the following bible teachings and how they teach the differences that matter.
We are cautioned to not go to the circumcision for our faith, instead, we should be imitators of Paul, and follow his teaching. 1Co 4:16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.
1Co 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. Paul is our pattern for faith and salvation. 1Ti 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. (1) All teachings specific for this dispensation were given to Paul
God through Paul describes the gospel and preaching of Jesus Christ was a mystery kept secret until "now" being made manifest, as in being currently given to Paul, not otherwise. Now for the nature of the teachings in this dispensation. Please pay special attention to point 3, because it describes the very nature of our entire dispensation and how it was revealed. (1) Ro 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—— (2) This is an amazing teaching for the rapture, and how it actually is that times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him. Note the special unique idea, that God is mentioning a gathering together of those who are in heaven and which are on earth! This dispensation of the fullness of times is a clear reference to the pretrib rapture, even the name of this dispensation, the fullness of times, shows how seperated it is from the next dispensation, as it is correlated with the rapture event. And how logical and brilliant is that? It only makes perfect sense to start up the next dispensation immediately following the exit of all those who became saved in the previous dispensation, that way it will only be natural to be able to swiftly start up with the next dispensation, which I believe will be picking things up right where the last one left off. (2) Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (3) This is the main feature presentation for the nature of the teachings for this dispensation. It is not according to any other revelation but that which was given to Paul to give to us. Notice, even though it is an uncomfortable idea for most, God through Paul stipulates this new revelation as including the teachings about Christ which are not according to previous revelation, but were first given to Paul. (3) Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; (4) God through Paul even clarifies that this new message includes the mystery of the gospel. (4) Eph 6:18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (5) In this dispensation, even Paul needed help from God to boldly proclaim the mystery of Christ as he aught to make it manifest. This issue can get somewhat complicated, and I think is largely what the circumcision crowd meant by describing Paul's writings as being sometimes difficult to understand. (5) Col 4:3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak. (6) The following should be a real eye opener for folks who do not consider Paul this way, and also for those who do not understand how it is that God is lumping together in like mannor the various mystery teachings, namely that these mystery teaching from the dispensation of grace and mystery are NOT according to other revelation than what was specifically given to Paul. (6) 1Co 4:1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Ok, that's it for now, please consider God's word over this matter.
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1way
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| Posted 6/2/2004 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | To clarify this threads focus and intent
This thread started from a discussion on the pretrib rapture, but my main point is to first establish the nature of the revelation that was given to Paul for this dispensation, so I'd rather talk about the revelation than the rapture, even though the rapture is featured in the title, it is not primary, it is secondary, being a result of the nature of the revelation for this dispensation.
I will not budge from God's word over the nature of the revelation for this dispensation. So please join me in that pursuit.
In the way truth and life
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/2/2004 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Pauline mystery teachings were not previously revealed to anyone else
The unique way of faith (dispensation teachings) that we have for today was strictly given to Paul and no one else. So we are living in the dispensation of Grace and Mystery such that our dispensation does not fit in with the rest of biblical prophesy, namely, the end times of trials of tribulations are not about us at all, they are about Israel.
I do not believe that those scriptures are actually saying what you think they are saying. Since I use to believe EXACTLY what you are saying they say, I ugre you to please take another look at them.
What exactly is "the mystery"?
Paul in speaking to the Gentiles in Ephesus states:
Eph. 3:3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
And WHAT WAS THAT MYSTERY?
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Fellow heirs of the SAME BODY? What BODY is that?
Fellow heirs of the SAME BODY as what he just said he wrote afore in few words.
Eph. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Fellow heir of the SAME BODY as WHO? THE COMMON WEALTH OF ISRAEL.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off (from the COMMON WEALTH OF ISREAL according to the flesh the decendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the promise.) are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both (Jews and Gentiles) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him WE BOTH (both Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
NOW therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, (of ISRAEL) and of the household (the Israel0 of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The Gentiles were made fellow heirs with ISRAEL, something they were not previously. That means that they will not only inherit the promises if they believe but the WRATH if they don't. When you believe and have faith in Christ, you become a MEMBER OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, that SAME Israel that every prophecy and oricle of God was ever given to, INClUDING but not limited to the prophecies of the END TIMES.
EVERY SINGLE prophecy regarding the end times dose refer not only to those Jews you see, but to EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, that will be alive WHEN those things come to pass.
Paul clearly states that the faith the Gentiles received IS NOT just built upon HIM, or the revelation he recieved. But that the foundation of their faith is built upon the apostles (PLURAL), and prophets with JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF NOT PAUL being the chief cornerstone.
The ONLY thing that was revealed to Paul was the truth of how the Gentiles would be complete and total FELLOW HEIRS with Israel, and that they would be EQUAL members in the COMMON WEALTH OF ISRAEL. And all of the prophcies do refer to ISRAEL, as well as the Gentiles, in that they will receive both the blessings and the wrath depending on their each own individual standing.
You state: I will not budge from God's word over the nature of the revelation for this dispensation. So please join me in that pursuit.
Well I was once that adament about what the dispensational teaching you adhear to, but it I found out that it was all based on SCRIPTURES TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT!
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/2/2004 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
To clarify this threads focus and intent
This thread started from a discussion on the pretrib rapture, but my main point is to first establish the nature of the revelation that was given to Paul for this dispensation, so I'd rather talk about the revelation than the rapture, even though the rapture is featured in the title, it is not primary, it is secondary, being a result of the nature of the revelation for this dispensation.
I will not budge from God's word over the nature of the revelation for this dispensation. So please join me in that pursuit.
In the way truth and life
So we have to accept your premise of "dispensational truth" to "receive" your understanding of "the revelation of the mystery" (dispensational truth about the rapture). Sounds awfully gnostic to me. Completely circular logic. Jesus and Paul never reasoned this way to try to persuade people.
I (and now larris) have shown that the revelation of the mystery simply and only has to do with the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the people of God (formerly only Israel). The context of Eph. 3 does not seem to support your idea of some kind of mysterious dispensational truth. Can you show how it does?
And please don't try to tell me I have to accept it before I accept it.  | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/2/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is the centerpiece of what I am trying to get at. The following is what I believe. (3) Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Now, I am not being gullible, I understand that most Christians read that exact same passage and do not get from it what I do. So, I'll endeavor to comment on my understanding of special parts of this passage as it goes along in an attempt to help you understand what this wonderful passage means to me. Please carefully consider.
Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles——
This is a consistent theme with Paul, to call specific and isolated attention to himself. It seems that Paul is the only apostle to do this, and is strikingly similar to what Christ Himself is famous for teaching. Yet, these are the words of Christ, He is speaking to us through Paul, so naturally we find Paul being very assertive and authoritative, because his stewardship or responsibility for the teachings for this dispensation was given to him to give to us. Because I already understand the nature of the mystery revelation for this dispensation, and also much of the unique message that was given to Paul to give to us, so these things make natural sense to me, but the average Christian would not appreciate such things, which is a sad state of affairs. We are called to be like Paul and to pray that the mystery be boldly revealed from the teachings of the dispensation of mystery and grace, but most Christians have all but rarely even used the term "mystery", let alone have a habit of praying that the mystery be boldly revealed according to the way it has now been revealed strictly through Paul.
For we Gentiles!?! But Paul, today most believers claim there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, so why would you dare say such a thing? After all, you are the one who taught that there is no more difference (in the body of Christ), circumcision and uncircumcision means nothing (in the body of Christ). Yet, Paul plainly restates in many ways throughout his writings the differences between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. He even calls himself the apostle to us using that same idea. He even tags this differentiation onto the gospel as well.
Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Ga 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as [the gospel] for the circumcised [was] to Peter
So for some good and godly reason, Paul is very concerned about these differences. I believe he is the only one in the whole bible who explains the differences between the two main groups of believers, and he mostly explains how our group, those of the uncircumcision, are different from those of the circumcision. And I think that is a big implication behind Paul's declaration that this dispensation from God fulfills the word of God (Col 1:25), because Paul's writings helps us make perfect sense of it all, if you grant the uniqueness of the revelation that was given to him.
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
Praise God for our one apostle Paul. Paul was "the" person who was specifically entrusted with the responsibility of delivering the teachings for our current dispensation to us. Notice carefully the general idea being stated about the mysteries in the following citation of 1Co 4:1. Consider that according to most Christian's lack of differentiation, they would have had no problems accepting this statement in the following alternative ways, ,,, but not those who appreciate the mystery aspect of our current dispensation. God could have said
stewards of the revelations,
or stewards of the scriptures,
or stewards of the teachings,
or stewards of the prophesies,
or stewards of the doctrines,
but I believe that God is very purposeful and wise with His word choice, so He is again calling special attention to the nature of the revelation for this dispensation of mystery and grace, such that we see that there is a general connection between these Pauline various but generally associated mystery teachings. I realize that is a logical inference that the text does not spell out, but I see no other better understanding, and I think it makes perfect sense especially when you consider that this dispensation was delivered in hidden mystery, and is called "the fellowship of the mystery". So it is only natural to unify these special and unique teachings. 1Co 4:1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
1Co 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. (*Strongs 3622 = oikonomia = dispensation!*)
Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship (*Strongs 3622 = oikonomia = dispensation!*) from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
So we see that Paul is the only one that was specifically given the trust over delivering to us the dispensation that we currently live in. That is a very foundational and comprehensive teaching, despite it's obscurity among the saints.
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
Paul's message is new and different, so it is not surprising that Paul dictates to us that this is not his own personal teaching, his authority and teachings comes directly from God and is the revelation for this dispensation. Again, scripture isolates Paul as the single person who God made known the mystery...
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
Meaning, "when you read Paul's writings". It is clear that this is only referring to Paul's writings that we should read in order to understand the teachings for this dispensation. Again, "my knowledge" is typical isolated references to Paul's unique message and authority given to no one else.
"The mystery of Christ". Jesus Christ is in various ways taught throughout all of scripture! So if you do not know how the Pauline (uncircumcision) teachings of Christ is a mystery teaching that is not according to other revelation, then you most certainly are missing out of huge dividends of revealed knowledge in the scriptures. Preach and teach for the mystery aspect of Jesus Christ to be boldly preached.
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
as it has now been revealed What a fabulous and virtually lost teaching. This lends the idea that the new revelation was not previously made known as it has now been revealed. You have previous revelation, then you have revelation that was not previously made known as it has now been revealed. So if you think you heard this stuff before, and you do not see a new revelation, then you are misunderstanding what should be understood.
See, it's like I have been saying all this time. This dispensation is according to mystery teachings from revelation that was not otherwise made known, but now is revealed (through Paul's writings to us). And it is also true that this revelation was ratified by the other apostles, Peter was given a little bit of revelation to teach the circumcision to accept what God was about to do with the uncircumcision, and apparently the Jerusalem council may represent fulfillment of this truth as well.
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
And yet basically everyone typically thinks this is a tried and true bible wide teaching! But it is not. So, do you understand how this teaching was not otherwise revealed until it was given to Paul? If not, then I think you are missing out on a great deal of important biblical truth.
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
Amen, Paul was "the one" who was entrusted with this gospel by the effective working of the power and authority of God.
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Talk about overdoing it! Ok already Paul, we hear you, you are the man that God specifically chose to reveal the dispensation of grace to us. As to the unique phrase, "unsearchable riches", talk about most people dropping the ball over the immediate context, God is referencing and highlighting, at least in part, the nature of the revelation being described! That is to say, since it truly was hidden in God and not otherwise revealed until it was entrusted with Paul to give to us, you can NOT search out these teachings unless you differentiate these teachings from all others. In other words, consider everything else when you read Paul's stuff, and you should expect to see new and different revelation because it is not otherwise searchable, you can not find this stuff in the writings of the rest of the bible. Hence is why I keep mentioning that we should know both things, the content of the new teaching, which may sound much like other teachings, and then more importantly, understand how it is that Paul's particular use of that teaching is different and unique and not otherwise revealed but through Paul!
The bible is exciting and treasures await those who diligently seek them out. God's word is true, the teachings for this dispensation are both unique and relevant to other teachings. But in this dispensation, they hold unique meaning that we should naturally respect and understand. The differences matter.
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Why is God through Paul stating a teaching, that He wants to reveal mystery teachings? If God is only stating the obvious, if God is only teaching what is necessary to understand the mystery, then why not just
state what the mysteries are, and simply be done with it???
Because the revelation of these mysteries are more deep than that. They sometimes relate to, or sound similar to, other teachings that already exist, but they hold brand new meaning that was never before revealed! So that being the case, each time such a teaching is expressed, we can know that it does not just mean the similarities that we otherwise have been taught, it necessarily means that there is a new or different aspect involved, something that is not elsewhere taught. God repeats over and over and over again, this stuff concerns teachings that was hidden in God, never before revealed.
Also, consider that the phrase "the fellowship of the mystery" is a direct recap of the ideas just presented in vv.2-3, so this is like a summary of the following ideas,
the dispensation of the Grace of God which is a mystery revelation that was kept hidden in God,
by simply referring to this dispensation as a "fellowship of the mystery", so we are living in a "dispensation of the fellowship of the mystery", or for short, the "dispensation of the mystery".
So, become a workman, rightly dividing the word of truth, and be a wise investor in the things of God by seeking the veiled and hidden things. You live in the dispensation of mystery, you should be well versed in the mysteries and how they are different from any other teaching.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Ps 119:162 I rejoice at Your word As one who finds great treasure.
Mt 13:44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mt 13:52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure [things] new and old."
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and [attaining] to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Pr 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings [is] to search out a matter.
Be blessed in Him by the effective working of His power according to His sometimes hidden and mysterious word.
So, please don't feel left out just because you don't get it right off the bat. The revelation from God commands you to work at it, so keep seeking after the things of God, keep searching for the hidden matters, so that in the end, you will have the full assurance of understanding of even the mysteries of God. The hidden treasure is there, God beckons your search that you should also find and understand these hidden things. So, again I say, if you do not teach boldly the hidden teachings of God, and pray that they be revealed by those who understand them, then you are really missing out on so much understanding that God calls you to have.
Nope, I'm not just going to explain my unique teachings, that would be inappropriate to try to explain my understandings of the various new teachings, when the entire concept that they are any new teachings has not yet even been established. First things first. Please help me found and gain mutual understanding about the uniqueness of the revelation for this dispensation. And then precept upon precept.
Be blessed, preach the mysteries of God! | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/2/2004 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp - Greetings. You said quote:
So we have to accept your premise of "dispensational truth" to "receive" your understanding of "the revelation of the mystery" (dispensational truth about the rapture).
Sounds awfully gnostic to me. Completely circular logic. Jesus and Paul never reasoned this way to try to persuade people.
I see this truth straight from scripture, you have the same secret writings I refer too, so I am opening my understanding up to you (new or old things from God's word).
I kindly ask you all to inspect what I am saying, and correct my understanding if it is wrong. But be clear, I need to be corrected according to God's word. See my last post for my scriptural presentation for my view, and if you disagree with it somewhere, please copy and paste, and show me via sound biblical reproof. I'll accept no lesser reasoning, i.e. an appeal to man's tradition is insufficient against the plain teachings from scripture. As for the rapture, FORGET ABOUT THE RAPTURE, first things first. I am doing only one thing,
the
nature
of
the
revelation
for
the
teachings
for
this
current
dispensation.
Thanks for your time. And don't worry, you don't have to accept it before you accept it.
No commentarys were used in the previous post. -- Journeyman in the scriptures
I think I am right, but I know I could be wrong, may the grace be sufficient. -- Little ol me
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/2/2004 3:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles——
This is a consistent theme with Paul, to call specific and isolated attention to himself. It seems that Paul is the only apostle to do this, and is strikingly similar to what Christ Himself is famous for teaching. Yet, these are the words of Christ, He is speaking to us through Paul, so naturally we find Paul being very assertive and authoritative, because his stewardship or responsibility for the teachings for this dispensation was given to him to give to us. Because I already understand the nature of the mystery revelation for this dispensation, and also much of the unique message that was given to Paul to give to us, so these things make natural sense to me, but the average Christian would not appreciate such things, which is a sad state of affairs. We are called to be like Paul and to pray that the mystery be boldly revealed from the teachings of the dispensation of mystery and grace, but most Christians have all but rarely even used the term "mystery", let alone have a habit of praying that the mystery be boldly revealed according to the way it has now been revealed strictly through Paul.
1way, you state above: “Because I already understand the nature of the mystery revelation for this dispensation, and also much of the unique message that was given to Paul to give to us, so these things make natural sense to me, but the average Christian would not appreciate such things, which is a sad state of affairs.”
First of all let me tell you that I understand FULL WELL EXACTLY what you are speaking of, for the reason that I too at one time believed the EXACT same thing. Therefore as we discuss this, remember that I not only know where you are coming from, but that I was at one time even more fully persuaded than you are as to what you think you are seeing, and what you believe.
Ok, so that said, before I can approach some of the specifics you mentioned regarding dispensations, I would first like to ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind to get a little bit of back ground concerning where you learned these things. Specifically any theology, who’s it was, any books, classes, teachings, preaching and who or what organization or individual it came from.
Once you answer that question for me, I can then begin to approach the subject at hand. And am more than willing to “cut and paste” and keep it in the Word of God, to show you why I no longer am as persuaded as you are now. I too as you loved God then as much as now. And I can tell by your words that you not only love the Lord, but that you have a great respect for the WRITTEN Word, the bible.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/2/2004 7:15 PM (GMT -6) | | larris - You claim to already know and understand my view. I see no reason to trust that claim yet. I will let the truth of the matter speak for itself, claims are a dime a dozen, even cheaper sometimes on the internet.
I could not pretend to list all the teachers in my life. I learned an awful lot from Church and Sunday school as a child, I am a non-denominationalist, so I hesitate naming names, but it was part of the Protestant tradition, with an emphasis on peace and church community. I brought my bible with me all the time.
I've attended over a half dozen churches at various times and for various durations (church going for about half my entire life, of which about 10 years were wayward and no church). I've listened to nationally syndicated radio broadcasts, as well as the good stuff from the local scene too. I remember watching TV shows with famous evangelists like Billy Graham, and watching the start of that TV program every Sunday afternoon, I forget the name of it, but the song always said, "in times like these", "we need a savior", we never watched that show though. What was that program? It had a USA space rocket just taking off into the sky, which was and awesome sight way back then, were talking about 1965-70.
All told, I've probably listened to hundreds of different teachers or preachers or evangelists or lay ministers, etc. I've probably been exposed to a one half to three quarter million Christian or bible teachings since I was 2 years old.
Having said all that
When I consider all those teachings, I believe that about 90% of them were to some clear and appreciable degree in variance with each other or to God's word. In fact, it seems like unless we are talking about some of the most basic tenants of the Christian faith, i.e. Jesus is the savior, the death burial and resurrection, one triune God, the bible is God's word, then disunity and contradiction is the most common denominator. Jesus plainly teaches against such broken disunity, and instead promotes one mind and one faith that is united in Christ. A house divided is in big trouble, and Christians are the source for error and false doctrine.
So while I realize that you want to know a reasonable answer to a common question, I greatly disdain the relevance of an excessive focus on man's tradition and orthodoxy. God is the source for our faith, we are to conform our faith to God's word and by the leading of the HS. Teachers and pastors and evangelists are supposed to be for our edification, they are supposed to aid our spiritual growth, but they are only aids, God and His word is the source and authority for our faith. So please take this issue of personal subjective background no further than necessary.
You said quote:
... before I can approach some of the specifics you mentioned regarding dispensations, I would first like to ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind to get a little bit of back ground concerning where you learned these things. Specifically any theology, who’s it was, any books, classes, teachings, preaching and who or what organization or individual it came from.
The bible is my number one resource. My life's teachings I just described above is my second most influential (some positive, many negative) source, then I hooked up with Bob Enyart who has been my main positive influence since 96 for this sort of teaching, as well as Bob Hill, and to a much lesser degree other dispensationalists also. The Bob's already taught the Open View before I heard about the OV, only it was not called that, Bob Hill says he would have called it free will theism or perhaps did not really label it much, just taught it in lieu of opposing classical immutability, oh ya, he has termed the phrase "rational mutability" also. I think that Bob Enyart is the best overall bible teacher I know.
But I hardly even reference these works, because what they have mostly done is turn me on to the bible in a way that is amazing. When you are not encumbered with so much false doctrine, understanding the bible becomes so much more meaningful and enjoyable.
The number one lesson I learned from them is simple.
The most important thing you can do is to read the entire bible from cover to cover and get a good solid overview prior to attacking the details with much conviction. The truth is whole, and because the wider context is so large and more difficult to take in, naturally man tends to take the easier rout and so violating the wider context is probably the number one problem for mishandling the scriptures.
After that. I say that two major types of lessons have greatly impacted my faith.
Dispensationalism, and Open Theism, of which I am an Acts 9, 12out, Openness, Not nicer than God, dispensationalist. I have spent about 20 hours per week on average doing online theological posting for the last 8 years doing practically nothing but sharing and debating these issues, with an open willingness to be shown where I am wrong so that I can ever more stand corrected onto God's word. I am approaching somewhere between 3-4 million words posted.
What matters is the truth of a matter. It does not matter if you learn it from a kid, or a criminal, or Billy Graham, or your mother, what matters is the truth. So please, deal with the bible teachings that I say I believe and why I believe them. And do not worry about who taught who and so on and so forth. Come judgment day, all our nifty little pirks and supports will be stripped away, we wont have mom and dad to turn to for help, and God will say, hey, it's just you and me now, I told you it would be like this, because, what I say is what counts, you should trust in Me by My word. God will burn up our house of faith unless we built upon the foundation well and wisely.
Now you know about me and my background, which does not matter much, now I want to hear your responses to my understandings from scripture which fill my heart with joy and awe just to think about them. God is good, and I pray that He will ever more knit Himself to your heart.
Lastly, I suggest that you read my reference post perhaps several times. I'd ask you to pay the most attention to God's word and not mine or any other teacher. And I'd ask you to take it all in prior to attacking the details, because of how purposeful it all fits together. And, if you will, I would appreciate a general response prior to the cut and paste stuff, although the cut and paste will be the meat of the issue where the arguments and understandings stand or fall.
Thanks for your time. Looking forward to your response.
In the way truth and life
1Way | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/3/2004 1:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
[quote]Ok, so that said, before I can approach some of the specifics you mentioned regarding dispensations, I would first like to ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind to get a little bit of back ground concerning where you learned these things. Specifically any theology, who’s it was, any books, classes, teachings, preaching and who or what organization or individual it came from.
1Way can be found discussing with this Bob Hill on: www.biblicalanswers.com/biblicalanswers_bible_forums_frameset.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/3/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | POW - I already answered for myself , I included Bob Hill in my answer, and your answer is not accurate to the question as stated. However, my answer is right on the money. And I wish to remain the person who answers for myself, if that is alright with you . If I want you  to represent me  , I will kindly  ask you, until then, please represent yourself instead. I am discussing/debating//sharing about this stuff HERE. I have done this many other places as well.
Your focus on revealing the manmade ties seems to be sad but consistent with you. What really matters are eternal things, like God's everlasting word, ,,, the scriptures, you know, the protestant bible, ,,, remember? Not who taught who. Our reading and understanding of God's word remains the issue at hand, please join me over a refreshing cup of ,,, something, and an open bible, and a heart that is responsive to God's teachings from scripture.
Doh  , I have to practically beg, and trick, and shame them to finally get into a specific bible discussion. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/3/2004 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | |  All in good humor. Trying to keep things light, while remaining unyieldingly insistent that God's word is the authority via God, not otherwise.
Sincerely looking forward to an objective and humble bible study. I hope the uniqueness of the mystery teaching(s) will become boldly revealed.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/3/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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