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BADGERVOL
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/3/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | I don't want to try to taint your opinion on this quote. I will just state it and ask for your input on it. Agree, Disagree, reasons why?
"With God, nothing is more important than God."
Looking forward to thoughts. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/3/2004 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
I don't want to try to taint your opinion on this quote. I will just state it and ask for your input on it. Agree, Disagree, reasons why?
"With God, nothing is more important than God."
Hello Badgervol,
I Disagree!
God is the epitome of love, the source of love, and the essence of love. His number one goal is to be in an ongoing, loving relationship with each of us.
John 3:16 (NIV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The entire gospel comes into focus in this verse. God’s love is not static or self-centered; it reaches out and draws others in. God sets the pattern for true love, in all love relationships. When you love someone, you are willing to sacrifice willingly. God paid dearly (the highest price possible), with His Son's life. Jesus bore our punishment. He paid the penalty for our sin, offering us the new life that he had purchased. When we share the gospel, we must love as He did; surrendering our own comfort and security, so others might join us and receive the Father's love.
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 5/3/2004 6:58 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems to me that if God is the only important thing to God (if that is what the quote is trying to say), then it is odd that God would create a fallen world and then try unsuccessfully to woo most of humanity away from moral anarchy and self destruction. God doesn't need us to exist, and with the trinity, he doesn't need us so that he can have an object to love, so there is no necessity for us existing. God doesn't need us around, he wants us around, and yet, most of the time humanity spits on God, his commandments, and his blessings. If God was just looking out for Number One, I think we'd have been toast along time ago. Yet, people from Moses to the King of Ninevah have been able to prevail upon God not to let his wrath burn us up, so he must have some other passion besides himself or his own glory. That's how I see it anyway.
-Phil | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 5/3/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | | I agree with the sentiments here. It would seem odd that God would spend so much time with us, put up with us, tell us love is so giving to another and then turn around and simply be about himself. But I do know that John Piper believes that God does things for his own glory, that that is the first and foremost reason for what God does. He even says in his new book about the crucifixition that that was the central reason why Christ died. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 5/3/2004 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
But I do know that John Piper believes that God does things for his own glory, that that is the first and foremost reason for what God does. He even says in his new book about the crucifixition that that was the central reason why Christ died.
God as the supreme narcissist.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 5/3/2004 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | | I am NOT trying to be rude to Piper, but that does sound like what God is when you read some of his stuff. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/3/2004 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Badgervol: I don't want to try to taint your opinion on this quote. I will just state it and ask for your input on it. Agree, Disagree, reasons why? "With God, nothing is more important than God."
Tom: Interesting responses to this. Far be it from me to disappoint everyone by agreeing ( ), so let me say that I agree with this quote. No problem here whatsoever. Just for starters, though, I don't read it as saying God is the ONLY important thing. It's saying that God is the MOST important thing and that God knows this.
Can you think of anything more important than God? I can’t. Can you think of anyone more important than God? I can’t. If you can, then perhaps you ought to be worshiping THAT thing or THAT person. But we’re not. We’re worshiping God. And certainly worship like that includes, among other things, placing the highest possible value on God, the one who deserves to be worshipped. It seems pretty clear to me at least that there’s nothing more important than God. And if this is true, God would know it.
Did Jesus manifest this? Seems obvious to me, yes. Jesus certainly didn’t manifest a belief that anything or anyone else was more important than God. He didn't teach us to value others above God that I recall. And I think we are to imitate this same value judgment not by thinking ourselves all important, but by agreeing with God that there’s nothing more important than God.
Having said that, I’ll add this. Just agreeing with the quote doesn’t really say much about whether one ought therefore to be a determinist, indeterminist, Calvinist, Arminian, open theist, or process theologian. Really. Until you define what KIND of God the most important God is, you haven’t said much. A determinist might feel that since God values himself above all else that it follows that such a God would determine all things, could not tolerate not getting what he wants, would relate unconditionally to the world, etc. But why think that? Why wouldn’t a God who knows that he’s (sorry for all the male pronouns, shall I switch over a bit?) the most valuable reality in the universe be the sort of God who values others enough to die for them, relates openly and freely with others, and grants others the freedom to tell him to get lost? When we as open theists disagree with quotes like this one, I think we’re actually accepting without argument the presuppositions of those determinists who DO popularize such quotes. But I think we make a mistake in reacting against what we DO disagree with determinists on by refusing to agree that God is the center, God is the ultimate and supreme value, God values himself more than he values anything else, and God knows he’s more important than anything or anyone else in the universe. We agree with their presuppositions when we assume with them that a God who knew this was true about himself either wouldn’t or couldn't be the sort of God who would give away “say-so,” take risks for the sake of love, tolerate the failure of plans and purposes, and let his will go unfulfilled. See?
We’re so accustomed to reacting to another human being who pretends to think they’re all important, that we may not feel comfortable imagining how any person, even God, could feel this way about herself. But I don’t think the same pride and selfishness attends to God if he were to believe he was the supreme value, the most important reality for the simple reason that in God’s case it’s true.
That God became a man who died on the cross for us, suffering as God as well, uniting deity and humanity forever out of love FOR US does not have to mean God values us more than he values himself. It simply means he values us enough to die as a man for us. He doesn’t value us enough to die as God, to cease to be God, for us. We are not so important that we deserve God to be other than God for our sakes. That’s utter hubris. That’s what Lucifer wanted.
Granted, Piper and others may assume that such quotes entail the truth of their own theological systems, but let’s call ‘em on it instead of conceding that such quotes do just that, as if only determinists can believe God knows how supremely special and worthy he is above all else. I wouldn’t argue from this quote to what they feel it entails. But that’s because I don’t think it entails what I think they think it entails (viz., a refusal or inability to share “say-so,” a refusal or inability to take risks, a providence that requires deterministically guaranteeing the win, a “glory” that is as much served by Hitler as Mother Teresa, etc.). I don't have any problem agreeing that does everything for his own glory. But that still begs the question, what glorifies God?
Does God have any doubt about how great, wonderful, deserving of worship………(and the accolades can run on connecting all the stars in the universe in 10 point Verdana without repeating)………he is? I don’t think so. I think he has a perfectly accurate estimate of his value and importance, and I imagine it to be THE greatest value in the universe.
Does God not place inestimable value on me? Yes. Well, doesn’t this mean God must believe I’m as important as he is? Why in the world would it mean that? Why must God’s value decrease in order for him to value me enough to die for me?
Do you agree with the quote? Tom: Yes. Everyone else: No. What else is new?
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PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 5/3/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Tom: Interesting responses to this. Far be it from me to disappoint everyone by agreeing (), so let me say that I agree with this quote. No problem here whatsoever. Just for starters, though, I don't read it as saying God is the ONLY important thing. It's saying that God is the MOST important thing and that God knows this.
Can you think of anything more important than God? I can’t. Can you think of anyone more important than God? I can’t. If you can, then perhaps you ought to be worshiping THAT thing or THAT person. But we’re not. We’re worshiping God. And certainly worship like that includes, among other things, placing the highest possible value on God, the one who deserves to be worshipped. It seems pretty clear to me at least that there’s nothing more important than God. And if this is true, God would know it.
See I think alot of us read the quote differently. Not having the context pretty much leaves it up to your first impression when you read it, I guess.
I read the quote as saying "God is the most important thing to God". Of course, in cosmic terms, God is the most important thing, but I thought the quote was speaking to God's attitude towards himself.
So, speaking from that viewpoint, I have a hard time seeing God that way. He seems to put himself out for us alot. He sacrifices his own feelings, his own desires, and even his own son in order to have a relationship with us. That seems very... selfless to me.
But I guess it all depends on what the quote is actually saying. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/3/2004 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Phil: I read the quote as saying "God is the most important thing to God".
Tom: Right. I read it that way too.
Phil: Of course, in cosmic terms, God is the most important thing, but I thought the quote was speaking to God's attitude towards himself.
Tom: If God IS the most important thing in the cosmos, how could God not know this about himself? If he thought anything else, how would he not just be wrong?
Phil: So, speaking from that viewpoint, I have a hard time seeing God that way. He seems to put himself out for us alot. He sacrifices his own feelings, his own desires, and even his own son in order to have a relationship with us. That seems very... selfless to me.
Tom: Yes he does this for us. But why do you think a God who is the most important thing in the cosmos (and knew it) wouldn't sacrifice his own feelings for you, even his own son? See, it looks like we're buying into the assumption that TRULY great, TRULY important people AREN'T selfless, don't share "say-so," value, and importance.
God is selfless. But being selfless doesn't mean believing you're unimportant or (in God's case) less important than you really are.
Peace,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/3/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Selah, let's see where you stand 38 pages from now! 
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 5/3/2004 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I agree with the quote.
"With God, nothing is more important than God."
Notice that this quote does NOT say "With God, the ONLY thing that is important is God" (as PhilTheThrill suggests) or that God is simply "about himself" (as feelingahole suggests). The quote is in fact perfectly consistent w/ God's greatly valuing other things and sacrificially loving his creation.
If God is indeed the greatest being, then God ought to love himself more than anything else. Moreover, we ought to love God more than anything else. Consider what it would be for God to love something more than himself. That would be a tacit declaration on God's part that something else is of more value than and hence greater than he, which cannot be the case if God is the greatest being. Nowhere are we enjoined to love another person more than ourselves. The commandment is "love your neighbor AS yourself", but we are enjoined to love God above all things, including spouse, children, parents, etc. It would be entirely unfitting, therefore, for the perfect God from whom all good things flow to value anything more than himself.
Thus, I submit that this quote is NOT depicting God as a selfish being who could hardly care less about anything but his own glory. That's a completely uncharitable interpretation of the quote. Charitably interpreted, the quote is simply expressing the commonsense idea that God values things in proportion to their worth. He values us more than animals because we are worth more than they. He values himself more than us because he--as the source of all value and goodness--is worth more than us.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 5/3/2004 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Tom: If God IS the most important thing in the cosmos, how could God not know this about himself? If he thought anything else, how would he not just be wrong?
Alright, I think I've figured out the part we're butting heads(keyboards?) on:
With the quote, I'm thinking it's talking more about how God acts and you and Alan are talking more about how he thinks.
With that said, I would agree that God values/loves Himself the most since he would essentially be the most valuable/lovable thing in the universe, however, he sure acts like he values/loves us more! (which makes him all the more valuable/lovable!)
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 5/3/2004 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Maybe you’re right Tom and Allen, if you have the ability to tap into the infinite mind of God. But is that the message we should ascribe to? This Western world is all about me, me and me. This little me that was created in the image of God and this little me that acts like a little god. Not by imitating Jesus mind you, but by thinking that the world evolves around me. All Glory and praise should go to God and nothing is more important in the entire universe then God Himself. But when we start thinking for God is when we start asking for trouble.
Not sure what your point is here, Mark. If you are implying that Tom and myself are making some kind of illegitimate claim to "tap into the infinite mind of God" or that we are, even more audaciously, "thinking for God", then I beg to differ. The Bible is God's Word and so is Creation, the "Book of Nature", which communicates to us his glory (Ps 19:1-4; Rom 1:20). When we read and understand Scripture we are tapping into the infinite mind of the God who inspired Scripture. And when we appreciate his handiwork in Creation we are tapping into the infinite mind of the God who designed the world we live in. And, frankly, and there's nothing illegitimate about tapping into God's mind in those ways. If we couldn't do so, then Scripture could communicate absolutely nothing from God to us and neither could creation. Now perhaps you mean to charge us with claiming some kind of direct insight into the mind of God unmediated by either Scripture or creation. I agree that such a claim would be illegitimate, but why would you think we were claiming that, explicitly or implicitly? You've insinuated a charge without supporting it. Moreover, why would you think that Tom or myself were in any way "thinking for God" or in any way claiming to do so? Again, there's an insinuated charge there without any justification for it.
Tom and I both gave arguments for our position. If you think we are wrong, fine. Engage with our arguments. But don't cast ad hominem aspersions on our motives or character. Such is not becoming of Christians, not does it constitute constructive dialogue.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/3/2004 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Is it possible to differentiate between God's motivation (universal benevolence) and the reality God knows (His status as the Supreme Being)?
It seems to me that there is a big difference between "SELF-importance" and "importance." In addition, God shows himself to be completely humble and willing to humble himself for the sake of all mankind in Scripture (Isn't this what the Incarnation and Atoning Death of Christ were about?!)
It is self-evident that a individual need not be narcissistic in attitude to know his own worth. Christ sought not his "own will, but the will of Him that sent me." And God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. John 3:16 seems to rule out the idea that God is simply the greatest narcissist in all the universe. His every motive is LOVE, which "seeks not its own."
But of course, being the SUPREME Being, God by definition is the most important person in all the universe. Without Him, nothing would exist. However, he condescends (in the righteous sense of humility) towards the lowest sinner, seeking to redeem and restore.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 5/3/2004 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | | Thanks, John, thats how I see it. I thought it was talking about attitude, not nature or character. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/3/2004 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"With God, nothing is more important than God."
Isn't it so beautiful how we all interpret things from our own internal structure?! When I first read the sentence I interpreted it to be that with God in MY life there is NOTHING more important. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/3/2004 10:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
I don't want to try to taint your opinion on this quote. I will just state it and ask for your input on it. Agree, Disagree, reasons why?
"With God, nothing is more important than God."
Hello Badgervol,
I Disagree!
God is the epitome of love, the source of love, and the essence of love. His number one goal is to be in an ongoing, loving relationship with each of us.
John 3:16 (NIV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The entire gospel comes into focus in this verse. God’s love is not static or self-centered; it reaches out and draws others in. God sets the pattern for true love, in all love relationships. When you love someone, you are willing to sacrifice willingly. God paid dearly (the highest price possible), with His Son's life. Jesus bore our punishment. He paid the penalty for our sin, offering us the new life that he had purchased. When we share the gospel, we must love as He did; surrendering our own comfort and security, so others might join us and receive the Father's love.
Peace,
Mark
Wonderful thoughts on love.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/4/2004 1:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Never would have thought of that! It really can be interpreted more than one way!
Or here's another way to interpret the sentence.
WITHOUT God, NOTHING is important.
God is the creator of EVERYTHING. Without God there would be no existence. | | Back to Top | | |
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