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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > "Judge Not" and "Nicer than God" | Forum Quick Jump
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/18/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jo-Anne - Blessings to you, don't get sun burnt. Here's a suggestion, if you do a lot of quotes where they are to be read as much as your own responses, I say place the entire quote in size 2, that way the entire thing is just as easy to read that way. But I appreciate your quoting me in full.
Or, perhaps an easier way to go about it, is to copy the quote like you did, and then instead of using the quote function that is placed at the beginning and end of the quote, erase that code and just manually call out quotes and end quote so that way it will automatically remain in standard sized font. Just a thought, but it is easier to do it the way you did, although as you can see, the font size changes are less than helpful, in my opinion anyway. Oh well, they always have my post to examine which is all in not small type size. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/18/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
Laika - Thank you for responding biblically! Happy am I.  May the love and grace be sufficient as we search and share and objectively examine these things out in scripture.
God's word stands, if you want to keep yourself from the sin of moral hypocrisy, you must abhor evil and cling to good. This is not an optional idea. 
Agreed. We are to go after the planks of evil in our own eyes as Paul tied "abhorring evil" with hypocrisy in verse 9.
quote:
Secondly, God does not teach a dual standard of righteousness and love. Right We are to treat everyone in a godly way, so again your emphasis does not detract one bit from our need to abhor evil in others.
Ah, but they won't know we're abhorring evil in them because we're too busy:
blessing them, verse 14
NOT paying back evil, verse 17
respecting what is right in the sight of all, verse 17. I assume this would be universal values of patience and kindness.
being at peace with all, verse 18
NOT taking revenge, verse 19
overcoming evil with good, verse 20
quote:
As to your commentary at the end of the chapter. The chapter ends up saying that the effect of our actions is to EAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 
...by being kind to them. What everyone would consider as kindness, verse 17, not our own private version of what we think kindness is.
quote:
v17 - What is "RIGHT" in the sight of all men? RIGHTEOUSNESS [:D
Not really. "Righteousness" means "right with God" and you'll find no proof that all people regard that the same. 
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/18/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
I would love to go to the conference but don't have enough vacation time this year to pull it off. And I may very well have a personality disorder - at least my wife thinks so! 
Hi Jeff,
The conference begins on a Friday evening at around 7pm, with one session Friday night, three or four sessions Saturday, and a Sunday worship service. Since I'm only about three hours away, I typically haven't needed to ask for vacation time. Anyway, would love to meet you there.
Sincerely,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/18/2004 9:17 AM (GMT -6) | | "judging hypocritically".
John 8:1-11 (NIV)
But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" [6] They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. [7] When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
[9] At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. [10] Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
[11] "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
1. Is Jesus saying don't cast stones because we live in a glass world of sinners. In a world where all fall short and sin?
2. Or is He saying, it is ok to judge as long as you're justified by not being guilty of the sin you are judging?
3. Or is the passage not even about judging, just a simple a clever escape for Jesus. The leaders were using the woman as a trap so they could trick Jesus. If Jesus said the woman should not be stoned, they would accuse him of violating Moses' law. If he urged them to execute her, they would report him to the Romans, who did not permit the Jews to carry out their own executions.
If we take a look the second view, it would tend to be false because Jesus did NOT say, "If any one of you is without the sin of(adultery), let him be the first to throw a stone at her." I think we could agree that the entire crowd could not have been guilty of adultery.
Even with some truth in option 3, the conclusion is, even after the leaders fled he still did not condemn the girl, hmmm. Seems to me option 1 would be the true meaning of the lesson. Here is some other versus that lend to support this:
Luke 12:14 (NLT)
Jesus replied, "Friend, who made me a judge over you to decide such things as that?"
John 8:15 (NLT)
You judge me with all your human limitations, but I am not judging anyone.
John 12:47 (NLT)
If anyone hears me and doesn't obey me, I am not his judge-for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.
So at the risk of being a judgmental hypocrite myself, I would say to embrace 1way’s view of being judgmental, you better have a virgin mother and squeaky clean slate. And even that wasn't enough for one Man.
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 6/18/2004 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
I would love to go to the conference but don't have enough vacation time this year to pull it off. And I may very well have a personality disorder - at least my wife thinks so!
Hi Jeff,
The conference begins on a Friday evening at around 7pm, with one session Friday night, three or four sessions Saturday, and a Sunday worship service. Since I'm only about three hours away, I typically haven't needed to ask for vacation time. Anyway, would love to meet you there.
Sincerely,
John
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 6/18/2004 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
John Earp - Wow, John Sanders and Greg Boyd, that would be most excellent, and only a 20 minuet drive from my place! I've personally met John Sanders and even Sat in on one of his classes where I was blessed to hear him do an absolutely wonderful job covering the whole hardening of Pharaoh's hart bit. We (a friend who lived nearer to the college) chatted with him after class, we chatted to his office, and somewhat after we got there too. We had a great time that day. It would be a great honor to be able to listen to Mr. Boyd and Mr. Sanders at that conference. That they have speakers on the open view is just plain exciting! Thanks for the info and suggestion, sounds great!
Just recently becoming aquainted with Boyd and Open View. Have talked often about this hardening of Pharoah's heart... Is this a perfect place to get a grip on an open theist's idea of what happened there. Was it possible that Pharoah could have repented at any point and the story be changed forever? Likewise, with Joseph being sold into slavery, was that God's great plan A or was it the freewill of Joseph's bro's? And on the nicer than God thing... as an open theist would one be so sure how to confront another, say Christian, when found in open sin? I am in the midst of a family of 6 and they all seem quite sure that judging is usually fine. I've been trying to show them the fundamentalism in our family and they seem to think it is wisdom. How long have you been in this open theism/Greg Boyd stream? | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/18/2004 2:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika - Examining your first post to see how your points have been treated.
You made the point that Rom 12 has an inward look, so don't be hypocritical towards ourself.
I said inward first to respond righteously to others, that our love and judgment is the same standards towards myself as it is towards others.
You have not responded against this point of correction.
v.17 You said means to be nice and patient.
I said it's about righteousness.
You disagreed saying I'll find "no proof" that everyone regards what is right in the same way.
I say that is not the point. Everyone regards what the scripture actually says, and that is about what is "right", every culture throughout the world has an innate sense of what is right and what is not. This is Christianity basics, that we are created in the image of God with a sense of morality (that is, right and wrong). Are you willing to discard such a foundational belief just to hold this strained view? Please reconsider.
The scriptures do not say to do what is nice, it says to respect what is universally viewed as right. So your view slightly mocks the teaching, but my view conforms to the teaching.
v18 You pit being at peace with men against abhorring against men. Which is a most contrary thing to do.
I said the peace we are to contribute is to the extent of our own cause, if there is no evil to oppose, then be at peace.
I mentioned that in our kindness and patience and blessing to those who are evil, we are heaping burning coals upon their head. That is the goal or end result here.
And you have no direct response except to remind us that we do that by being nice and patient, etc. But you think it's being kind in a way that anyone would say is being kind. 1) Now, in your view, being kind is a universally acceptable idea, but being righteous is not. That is not right, it is not equitable, it is not consistent, it is wrong. I agree to both because they are both reasonable as long as we are reasonable with the consideration.
2) God says our kindness and meekness is designed to make them feel like they have burning coals upon their heads, but now I say, that is about as unkind and judgmental behavior as you can get. So far you have no corresponding response to these points, although you have room to respond to these developing ideas.
You said quote:
Remember it's the "kindness of God that leads to repentance", NOT the battering rams of the "Roman's road"
That is terrible. You should never take one bible teaching in a contradictory way against another. The law is what will beat you up if you are under it, not the way of salvation! That is terrible of you to contrast an allusion to the gospel message as being destructive and ungodly because you say that instead of battering someone with the Road to Roman's, you should remember it's the "kindness of God that leads to repentance.
You just set God's method of evangelism against His own character, and for this I can only site it as being incredibly unbiblical and against God's character and ways. Remember, God's version of kindness has a goal of heaping burning coals on one's head!
Examining my first post to see how my points and counterpoints have been treated.
v.9, agape love turns to the sin of moral hypocrisy if you do not abhor evil and cling to good.
That is the reason for this discussion at hand, you are begging to differ with my understanding of it, and so far you have not even dealt with what the verse actually says except to say that it is not so much about us judging against others, but rather us judging ourselves. So do you, or do you not agree that godly love "agape" risks turning into the sin of moral hypocrisy if you do not abhor evil and cling to good?
I say that agape love is very others centered, I agree that Romans 12 starts with ourselves but has an eye toward how we treat others as well. Please respond.
I say that abhorring evil is not an option for the cause of keeping your love without hypocrisy, and now you are all others centered because you want us to be nice and meek to others, but our niceness is supposed to have a net result of heaping burning coals on their heads, and that figurative concept is unquestionably an unkind concept, yet that is what God's word teaches our behavior is supposed to produce.
Plus I'm not saying that you always must be harsh or judgmental against the wicked, just when it is appropriate.
I mention that the summary verse about the exclusivity of good and evil and mention that God teaches that we are to hate evil and love good, yet again, you have not commented.
As to your second post
You said quote:
Agreed. We are to go after the planks of evil in our own eyes as Paul tied "abhorring evil" with hypocrisy in verse 9.
Not agreed. We are to go after the planks of evil in our own lives so that we can go after the specks of evil in other's lives, as Paul teaches about abhorring evil in verse 9. It's not just a self check, we are not supposed to get all godly and righteous and then keep it to our selves! We are supposed to judge rightly so that we can serve and if necessary, judge others.
I agree that they need not know that we abhor against them, we can do that in various ways, but thanks for admitting that this abhorrence does apply to others and not just yourself.
Now, as to your blue list of Christian responses against or towards others. I am now needing to remind you for perhaps the second or third time to never interpret a bible teaching in a way that would violate another teaching. So, all the other teachings in the bible that are not so nice and peaceful and meek, like judging and condemning and ridicule and mocking and name calling, and rebuking, those teachings and examples are not invalidated just because we have the nicer softer kinder ones listed too. You should oppose the wicked using any available and appropriate godly tool, not just this these.
But lets consider each one of your sitations to see how they actually play out.
You said - blessing them, verse 14
- NOT paying back evil, verse 17
- respecting what is right in the sight of all, verse 17. I assume this would be universal values of patience and kindness.
- being at peace with all, verse 18
- NOT taking revenge, verse 19
- overcoming evil with good, verse 20
- Does God anywhere in the bible "specifically" bless the wicked? He is patient with them, but He never specifically blesses sin and evil. So if we bless them pretending that they are actually good, we are actually mocking them for being evil instead of being good, of course they do not deserve a godly blessing, they are wicked.
- Are we EVER to do evil? Never! So this is not saying that if we oppose evil, we would be in the wrong, it is saying that we should not stoop to their level and have malice and sin in our heart, don't sin, rather, abhor evil.
- That is not what the text says, and I hardly believe that I have to say this, but, the text says it's about what is or is not right, it's specifically about righteousness.
- That is not what it says. It says to do that as much as it is possible so far as it depends upon yourself, be at peace. So necessarily, since we are only responsible for our own actions we are not obligated to respond peaceably and kind if the matter is evil beyond your control. So again, it's not always be at peace with everyone.
- God will repay, and do not sin to protect the wicked.
- Amen! It is good to treat wicked people as though dumping hot coals on their heads, it's good to oppose them with abhorance, don't be nicer than God.
You mentioned quote:
Mr 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.
Lk 9:49-50 parallel passage
Now, who does Jesus imply was behind the miracle being done? God or otherwise? Obviously it was God, so, that person was proactively working in concert with God, even though they may have been untrained and unorthidox. So, you go on to say. quote:
So..... why not accord the same tolerance for Christians seeking to reach a certain audience today?
First, that is a loaded question. I say that principal applies today. If a knucklehead immature untrained unorthodox believer is helping to win people for Christ, then so be it. But that does not invalidate the rest of scripture. When an appropriate time comes, that person should submit themselves to a fellowship and growth process towards spiritual maturity. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/18/2004 3:31 PM (GMT -6) | | 1Way (and anyone else)
I'll try and keep this from becoming a manifesto. As for quote sizes, etc., I'm on a mac, and am not familiar as yet with how to do all this stuff. I'm learning. I appreciate all the help I can get.
Anyway...enough "chit chat"
(1Way/You)"... is understood by paying careful attention to the character and attributes of God, ,,, all of them, as well as God's teachings to us about how to respond to evil and sin."
(me) We are to "repay evil with good," "love our enemies" and love one another (1 John 4:7,8) I don't see a place in there for judgement, discernment yes, but not judgement.
(you)"...you are being nicer than God if you are in favor of not excommunicating them."
(me) What do you mean by "excommunicating" them? I just want to be clear about what you are saying. If I understand you correctly, then this is precisely the reason believers feel they must hide their struggles. It is my desire to be a "safe place," to walk along side those who struggle, pray for them, and help them see their position in Christ as one of wholeness and completeness - not lacking (even in their struggle). By the way, it's the people who have quit struggling that you really need to be worried about. (Am I "nicer than God" yet?)
(you) "I believe that the more one becomes aligned with God's righteousness and justice, the more we feel fortunate and blessed to be able to deal with evil and sin and error."
(me) I believe that what we need to communicate is that believers are already righteous.. He is ALL our righteousness.
(you) "He calls them His minister for good for our sakes, but if you do evil, be afraid. So, to the extent that government fights against lawlessness and crime (evil wickedness), to that extent they are being God's ministers of wrath."
(Me) Definitely debateable in Canada
(you) "So, maybe you personally are not going to fight against the terrorists, but you most certainly are glad if the police stop an assailant who would otherwise serve to harm you or your loved ones."
(Me) True, even though it is like camping with a fly swatter instead of applying "bug dope."
(you) "We should remember to be happy and thankful and even rejoice for the righteous vengeance against all evil doers."
(Me) What is "righteous vengeance?" Give me an example, please.
(You) "And remember, there was a time in history when God forbade man to put to death capitol offenders, many right dividers understand that to be a period of manmade government or conscience."
(Me) When?
(You) "A wonderful truth for that period from the fall to the flood is that God showed very clearly what it would be like if man were left to his own devices,..."
(Me) The conundrum is that it is because of His great love that He risked leaving us to our own "devices."
(You) "God barely mentioned laws and commands such man was left to govern himself, yet the end result of such a system was terrible wickedness..."
(Me) ...and likely heroic acts of mercy.
(You)"... so God rightly committed genocide and started all over with Noah. Unsaved man needs godly law to restrain against lawlessness and unchecked wickedness."
(Me) Now, exactly what (for all you O.V. people, of which I am one), did THAT accomplish? Free will did not change. What "lesson" were we supposed to learn, accept "COME HELL OR HIGH WATER" (pun intended), He is with us?
(You) "... the nicer than God folk will tend to be too forgiving and too accepting and too nice."
(Me) It still escapes me how that is possible. Please give me an example of what "too forgiving, too accepting and too nice" would look like.
(You) " Are you a Christian? That is primary, then after that it's, are you awake?"
(Me) Yes, to both.
Judge with righteous judgment
Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor evil and cling to good
Judge not ... you hypocrite, first judge yourself so that you may have the righteous grounds to judge others
We will judge the angels and the world, how much more things in this life
Don't give your pearls to swine, nor dogs
The fool says in his heart, there is no God
(Me) I interpret these verses as using discernment, examining our own heart with the Father, so we may live in the power and freedom of His Spirit and rejoice in His righteousness.
(You) "Judging against the wicked is a deeply godly thing to do. To not judge against the wicked is a deeply ungodly thing to do."
(Me) Are we talking terminology here? I recognize sin, and am not afraid to identify it, but it is not my place to "pass judgement" on sinners - saved or unsaved. It is my place to pray for them and love them and walk along side of them. Yes, there is a time to hold someone accountable for their actions - but even that is done in love and grace, with the purpose of restoration.
(You) "So what does judging accomplish? In my book, obeying God accomplishes the greatest good imaginable."
(Me) You are equating judgment with obedience. I don't.
(You) "Tell then that unless they turn to God and get saved, that they are condemned already, and you are trying to warn them ahead of time because if they do not change, come judgment day, YOU will be there judging against them for eternal damnation!"
(Me) I don't take the "eternal damnation" approach to reaching people. It is seldom effective.
(You)"Judgment and condemnation is the nature of the Law, and we use it against all who are under it, that is, the unsaved world."
(Me) He came to bring us something better than the law. Emphasizing the law just connects people to a sense of lack, not wholeness or completeness in Christ, and those who identify themselves as "lacking" will never measure up and will live a joyless life (That's my story, IMHO, and "I'm stickin' to it).
(You) "So, the first step in the road to Romans is to let them know they are condemned already, they need to feel their guilt, you should be ready and willing to judge against them until they can see it."
(Me) (except that Christ died for us while we were YET sinners).
(You) "If you say, no, your not one to judge, I love and accept you, but God condemns you, then you are going against God's judgment which is against them!"
(Me) How about that! You must've read my mind. I was just thinking "no" before I read this sentence!
(You) You are plainly being nicer than God.
(Me) I wish.
(You) "Now that is not my entire evangelical approach, but the foundation for turning someone to saving faith in Christ most definitely involves making them understand God's judgment, and that it is truly sinful and evil to reject God."
ME) Freewill is neither sinful, nor evil.
(You) "So I do not think God is very concerned about popularity and such, He says do what it takes to win even just the one, and the heavens would rejoice. Do right, and risk the consequences."
(Me) God is concerned about love, His and ours (the Gospels). He is also concerned the we understand our righteousness in Him (the Epistles)
(Me) Seems to me 1Way, that we have far too many people standing ready to judge, and far too few standing ready to love. The apostle Paul said that he wished we would all prophecy. Prophecy is upbuilding, encouraging and consoling. There is not enough of that going on these days.
(You) "There simply is no such dichotomy between being godly and being loving."
(Me) God is love. He talks a lot about it. The greatest commandment (which fulfills all law) says that we are to love Him and love others. Why, oh why do we complicate this?
(You) "You said it so simple, and perhaps in a less contrasting way than some, but there simply is no disparity between godly judgment and godly love, none. In fact, you can not be loving, UNLESS you are judgmental in opposition against evil! It's a requirement, not an option."
(Me) I hope we're talking the same language, just different dialects. Discernment, yes. Judgement, no. You can be discerning and loving at the same time. I'm not convinced (at all) that you can be judgemental and loving at the same time.
(You) "If you are found wanting, then your so called "agape" (godly love), risks really being the sin of hypocrisy because of not be just, because of being potentially the sin of hypocrisy."
(Me) 1Way, a hypocrite is one who says one thing, but lives another. I guess we're all hypocritical from time to time. If I'm going to make a mistake though, I would rather err on the side of being too loving.
(Me) I have no interest in "drawing a bead" on people. Most people that are in sin are wounded enough already.
(You) "Thanks for extending a personal proximity with me. I take your words of not drawing away in a good way (I think?), even though it was apparently coupled with the intent to put a bead on me(!!!) (chuckles), although I suspect that is the last thing you would want to do. Smile, at least I assume that is what you meant. Read it again, it's pretty funny if you keep in mind the connection involved. LOL"
(Me) I'm glad I could make you smile. I hope you're not terribly frustrated after this "manifesto" I've never been the "withdrawing" type - even if I don't agree with someone. And I do listen and try to consider what others are saying. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't be on this board today as an O.V. person. It has made an amazing difference in my walk with the Father.
Withdrawl from the righteous judgers is the only safe haven for the judge nots. But to no lasting avail, they can't escape God's notice.
(Me) What are you basing this on?
(You) "He teaches, do right, and that's it. Lead by example, and sooner or late the hard headed types may well come around too! But if you do not have sufficient leadership demonstrating godliness, then it becomes that much harder for the masses to know how to respond against sin and evil and wickedness."
(Me) I guess we all have different ideas about what is "godly," but I definitely concur with the "lead by example" statement. We do that anyway, whether we are conscious of it or not (as leaders), but having said that, you're really not a leader unless others want to follow you. I believe that mentoring is a wonderful thing, where people can not only hear what you have to say, but watch your life.
(You) "Jesus said, if they hated me, they will hate you, so when you become judgmental against the world for being evil, you will begin to feel more and more what it is like to be Christ like. Redeem the time, be Christlike, judge against some heathen, make a noticeable upstream stand for godliness, judge against the wicked."
Agape (godly love), is the sin of moral hypocrisy, if you do not abhor evil and cling to good.
(Me) The Word tells us that the world will know we are His disciples by our love for one another. There needs to be enough evidence to indict us. I'm afraid, if we lack anything, we lack love. I don't think you can really have agape love, without abhoring evil. You can abhor evil without being judgemental and unloving. My thoughts anyway. I'm open to correction, suggestions...
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/18/2004 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
v.17 You said means to be nice and patient.
I said it's about righteousness.
Righteousness means the state of being right with God, justification. It means conforming to the divine law. These are not what is considered right in the sight of all men.
Romans 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
What is right in the sight of all men? Righteousness? No.
Paul would have said "righteous". Instead he said "right".
Is righteousness a common value among all? I don't think so.
The unrighteous place no positive value on righteousness, that's why they're unrighteous. 
It reinforces the first part of the verse, not pay back evil with evil. Not doing evil is what is right in the sight of all men. This is why the 'God doing evil' view of God is a tough sell.
quote:
we are created in the image of God with a sense of morality (that is, right and wrong).
What's right and wrong, yes. NOT what is "right-with-God-ness", ie righteousness, justification, conforming to divine law.
quote:
v18 You pit being at peace with men against abhorring against men. Which is a most contrary thing to do.
Yep. I don't make peace with my neighbors by abhorring them. This should not be hard to understand.
quote:
I mentioned that in our kindness and patience and blessing to those who are evil, we are heaping burning coals upon their head. That is the goal or end result here.
Oh. I thought the "kindness of God leads to repentence". I didn't realize the end goal was the heaping of burning coals.
quote:
Now, in your view, being kind is a universally acceptable idea, but being righteous is not. That is not right, it is not equitable
Many people I know consider kindness as universal but would not make the same claim about right-with-God-ness. Why is this point so hard to understand? Here's what Paul says:
Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
What leads to repentance? kindness, tolerance, patience, Paul does NOT say "the righteousness of God leads to repentance".
According to Paul in Romans 2:4, the end, the goal appears to be the repentance of others NOT the heaping of burning coals.
Check out the Great Commission for more on this:
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
I don't see anything in here about heaping burning coals on anyone's head.
Will we know the unbelievers by their scalded, bald heads?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/18/2004 11:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne - I like how you quoted and all, very easy to follow along. Why the hyphen, why not Joanne?
I think that John was right, I am seeing a constant but false dichotomy set between judging and agape. He said quote:
While I certainly don't agree that the dichotomy insisted upon on this website by many in the past (love vs. judgment) is a valid biblical dichotomy, I should hasten to add that I don't think nastiness is a fruit of the Spirit, either.
There simply is no such dichotomy. I take exception to his nasty comment, Christian judgment is not about being immature or crude, but a harsh rebuke in judgment against someone may be far harsher than just being nasty.
Your profile is pretty expressive as to where you are at in your faith in God. You said quote:
I'm part of a pastoral care team in a non-denominational church, a "church without walls." ...
BTW, you like songs and such, I wonder if you liked the oldies rock song from the Byrds that was based on Ecl 3:1-8. As you might imagine, I like it and find great moral relevance.
Ec 3:8 A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace.
I would probably not be very welcome in your church for very long, because I am not very accepting of those who are too accepting of others. Your tolerance with sinners is often experienced as a form of intolerance against righteous saints who are not as tolerant as they are. Ultimately the conflict is unavoidable, because one is saying we should accept them, and the other is saying we should not except them. So the judge not Christian always entails a sad amount of hypocrisy, because ANYONE who disagrees with them, saying we should judge, means we are wrong for being judgmental, and that means that they are judging against us judge rightly folks, and that means they are "practicing hypocrites".
And since I imagine that you are considered a Pastor, instead of that you are caring for your Pastor (the phrasing lends either way, chuckles), and I assume you are a woman that does not stipulate being over the ladies only, so I find that as another issue of contention. Although I realize that these observations are not established as to what they exactly mean, so far all indications are to me that these are rather gaping disparities from the biblical model.
I said that to say this, I mentioned to you excommunication, and you said you aren't sure what I am talking about. Actually this is what I said quote:
Homosexuality is a great example because of the teaching in God's word to excommunicate one who claims to be a brother and is engaged in gross sexual immorality. Conversely, you are being nicer than God if you are in favor of not excommunicating them.
Although you chopped that a bit, this was your posting. quote:
(you)"...you are being nicer than God if you are in favor of not excommunicating them."
(me) What do you mean by "excommunicating" them? I just want to be clear about what you are saying. If I understand you correctly, then this is precisely the reason believers feel they must hide their struggles. It is my desire to be a "safe place," to walk along side those who struggle, pray for them, and help them see their position in Christ as one of wholeness and completeness - not lacking (even in their struggle). By the way, it's the people who have quit struggling that you really need to be worried about. (Am I "nicer than God" yet?)
Excommunication, shunning, as in "do not even eat with them". I'm not a pastor, you are. So I assume you can easily enough find the scripture for this teaching, right? I can't say for sure because you are not speaking God's word on this issue. BTW, your totally wrong about why people hide their sins, it's because they are sinful, sin is nothing to be proud of. Should we not judge against sin also so that people will feel more free to deal with their sins?
Excommunication seems like a great and godly thing to do, but, maybe you know of a more wise and redemptive way, but I find God's ways are wonderful, so please explain.
Jo-Anne posted
(you) "I believe that the more one becomes aligned with God's righteousness and justice, the more we feel fortunate and blessed to be able to deal with evil and sin and error."
(me) I believe that what we need to communicate is that believers are already righteous.. He is ALL our righteousness.
I'm talking about judging against evil and sin and error, and you say, but we are saved and justified and righteous. And I say, we have our own righteousness too, but not that saves us. You are speaking of someone who is saved, I agree our righteousness is in Christ, but I was speaking of anyone, saved or unsaved, it does not matter, we all are prone to sin or we may oppose evil in others too. God's word tells us to move on from the elementary things, i.e. mature.
You posted
(you) "He calls them His minister for good for our sakes, but if you do evil, be afraid. So, to the extent that government fights against lawlessness and crime (evil wickedness), to that extent they are being God's ministers of wrath."
(Me) Definitely debateable in Canada
LOL, ok, but this issue deserves clarification. Remember, Ro 13 was given when ungodly Rome was in power occupying Israel! They were incredibly wicked, yet even then lawlessness and evil were subdued.
You posted
(you) "We should remember to be happy and thankful and even rejoice for the righteous vengeance against all evil doers."
(Me) What is "righteous vengeance?" Give me an example, please.
Well, my two surrounding paragraphs are pretty clear what I am talking about. Putting to death a capitol offender is a great example. It's what we all do in the movies when the bad guy finally gets his due. Sometimes it's sad, often people rejoice. Consider your response to the following phrase.
Lets role
I am awed by the heroics of the men aboard that one airliner who fought back and spared a target from being hit. They all died but they risked their own lives in order to save the lives of others, and they did just that. Another example would be every just war. Also, every just arrest of a criminal. Also every time a person used "self defense" against an assailant. These are all examples of righteous vengeance.
You posted
(You) "A wonderful truth for that period from the fall to the flood is that God showed very clearly what it would be like if man were left to his own devices,..."
(Me) The conundrum is that it is because of His great love that He risked leaving us to our own "devices."
God quelled the defensive charge for all eternity, that may have said, but God, if you would have not given us so many laws, you would have seen that mankind would have been fine on our own, man is basically good.
You posted
(You) "God barely mentioned laws and commands such that man was left to govern himself, yet the end result of such a system was terrible wickedness..."
(Me) ...and likely heroic acts of mercy.
Maybe during the entire period, perhaps, but not the end result. quote:
Ge 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
So I think this indicates that (righteous) mercy would have been about the last thing to have been discovered towards the end of that dispensation.
You posted
(You)"... so God rightly committed genocide and started all over with Noah. Unsaved man needs godly law to restrain against lawlessness and unchecked wickedness."
(Me) Now, exactly what (for all you O.V. people, of which I am one), did THAT accomplish? Free will did not change. What "lesson" were we supposed to learn, accept "COME HELL OR HIGH WATER" (pun intended), He is with us?
God was not with us before the flood, except for Noah and his crew, God was against mankind. I refer you to my previous answer about God quelling the reasonable charge that He was too much of a controller with him and his laws/commands.
You posted
(You) "... the nicer than God folk will tend to be too forgiving and too accepting and too nice."
(Me) It still escapes me how that is possible. Please give me an example of what "too forgiving, too accepting and too nice" would look like.
God says to reject the heretic after the first and second admonition. If we are too nice and accepting, we'll go the longest mile with them. If we should be excommunicating someone, but we don't, we are also being nicer than God.
You posted
(You) " Are you a Christian? That is primary, then after that it's, are you awake?"
(Me) Yes, to both.
Judge with righteous judgment
You who are spiritual judges all things
Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor evil and cling to good
Judge not ... you hypocrite, first judge yourself so that you may have the righteous grounds to judge others
We will judge the angels and the world, how much more things in this life
Don't give your pearls to swine, nor dogs
The fool says in his heart, there is no God
(Me) I interpret these verses as using discernment, examining our own heart with the Father, so we may live in the power and freedom of His Spirit and rejoice in His righteousness.
LOL, OK, I don't call that interpreting anything, I call that a determined desire to misunderstand the obvious. The fact is that your faith opposes everyone of those teachings. So you think that calling someone a fool or an ungodly swine is not being judgmental, it's being discerning. Chuckles, boy, I'd hate to hear you when you really get upset at the wicked! LOL
You posted
(You) "Judging against the wicked is a deeply godly thing to do. To not judge against the wicked is a deeply ungodly thing to do."
(Me) Are we talking terminology here? I recognize sin, and am not afraid to identify it, but it is not my place to "pass judgement" on sinners - saved or unsaved. It is my place to pray for them and love them and walk along side of them. Yes, there is a time to hold someone accountable for their actions - but even that is done in love and grace, with the purpose of restoration.
You can not be agape loving if you are not abhorring that which is evil. Stop skirting the issue, if you do not minister judgment and opposition against evil, you are actually sinning instead of being loving. Abhor evil and sin in yourself first, and then of course, don't be a hypocrite, do the same in others as well. And please do not think that I am saying that harsh judgment should always be the response. I agree with the kinder approaches whenever appropriate.
You posted
(You) "Tell then that unless they turn to God and get saved, that they are condemned already, and you are trying to warn them ahead of time because if they do not change, come judgment day, YOU will be there judging against them for eternal damnation!"
(Me) I don't take the "eternal damnation" approach to reaching people. It is seldom effective.
Oh really? You see this as an approach. So, if someone you hope to lead to the Lord thinks they are loved by God but just have not accepted Him as Lord and Savior, then what would you do?
You posted
(You)"Judgment and condemnation is the nature of the Law, and we use it against all who are under it, that is, the unsaved world."
(Me) He came to bring us something better than the law. Emphasizing the law just connects people to a sense of lack, not wholeness or completeness in Christ, and those who identify themselves as "lacking" will never measure up and will live a joyless life (That's my story, IMHO, and "I'm stickin' to it).
Jesus did not replace the law, He does not replace the law. The law lacked what God does not lack, and that is the ability to save. But the fact that man can never measure up to God's law is the awesome truth that helps lead unsaved man into saving faith in God. So you do teach that we need God because were not good enough ourselves. So I find you somewhat equivicating on this issue.
You posted
(You) "So, the first step in the road to Romans is to let them know they are condemned already, they need to feel their guilt, you should be ready and willing to judge against them until they can see it."
(Me) (except that Christ died for us while we were YET sinners).
LOL, that's not an except, that's an amen. God knew both ideas when He wrote the bible, they are not in exception to each other like a dichotomy. He loved us and righteously hates all workers of iniquity, both at the same time, because God will not be nicer than God, God hates the wicked every day, His love abhors that which is evil.
You posted
(You) "Now that is not my entire evangelical approach, but the foundation for turning someone to saving faith in Christ most definitely involves making them understand God's judgment, and that it is truly sinful and evil to reject God."
ME) Freewill is neither sinful, nor evil.
Freewill and morality are not the same issue. That is certainly your most incongruent statement you've said yet, In fact, I say it is a non sequitur. Free will is not what sends people to hell, sin is the problem.
You posted
(You) "There simply is no such dichotomy between being godly and being loving."
(Me) God is love. He talks a lot about it. The greatest commandment (which fulfills all law) says that we are to love Him and love others. Why, oh why do we complicate this?
God says that love that does not abhor evil is the sin of hypocrisy. It is man that has tried to reinvent what God's love is all about.
You posted
(You) "You said it so simple, and perhaps in a less contrasting way than some, but there simply is no disparity between godly judgment and godly love, none. In fact, you can not be loving, UNLESS you are judgmental in opposition against evil! It's a requirement, not an option."
(Me) I hope we're talking the same language, just different dialects. Discernment, yes. Judgement, no. You can be discerning and loving at the same time. I'm not convinced (at all) that you can be judgemental and loving at the same time.
Abhoring evil is the harsher more graphic and intense hatred. You say this is about discernment, God says it's beyond hatred, it's about abhorrence. Abhoring judgment against evil is not optional, it's required to keep your love from the sin of hypocrisy.
You posted
(You) "If you are found wanting, then your so called "agape" (godly love), risks really being the sin of hypocrisy because of not be just, because of being potentially the sin of hypocrisy."
(Me) 1Way, a hypocrite is one who says one thing, but lives another. I guess we're all hypocritical from time to time. If I'm going to make a mistake though, I would rather err on the side of being too loving.
(Me) I have no interest in "drawing a bead" on people. Most people that are in sin are wounded enough already.
Abhoring evil is in complete harmony with godly love! The fact that you keep setting them up as being exclusive to each other shows the error you are in, and I dare say sin you are in. You can not be agape and at the same time view abhorring evil as being something to err against in favor of love.
You posted
(1Way) Withdrawl from the righteous judgers is the only safe haven for the judge nots. But to no lasting avail, they can't escape God's notice.
(Me) What are you basing this on?
The only way a judge not-er can keep from sinning in hypocrisy, is to isolate themselves from evil, or from the righteous. You can join a church of judge not-ers and thus effectively defend your hypocritical comfort zone. But even when people go to that extreme, they still can not escape God's attention, He will judge rightly even though we may not.
(Jo-Anne) I don't think you can really have agape love, without abhoring evil. You can abhor evil without being judgemental and unloving. My thoughts anyway. I'm open to correction, suggestions...
Ok, here's one distinction that I think should be stated. Judging over a moral matter is fundamentally saying that someone is in the wrong. Sin is offending God and His character. It is always wrong to sin.
If we were both honest, we could count probably plenty of statements that you make that are based in the idea of people being in the right or in the wrong. Also, you are a common sense person, so what you mind and heart does theoretically, you also do in real life. So, manifestly, you are a judging person, and you judge for and against people all the time. You just try to make is seem as though you don't do that. So I think you have that struggle to deal with.
Secondly, abhorring evil is far beyond judgment or discernment. If you are fine with abhorring, then hatred and judgment is a bridge you've already crossed.
I can tell that you are open to correction and suggestions. God loves a humble obedient heart. People who sin, they are in rebellion against God. Everyone has been hurt, so lets cut to the chase, if it's sin, deal with that, if it's abuse and healing, deal with that, it's not a sin to heal from abuse. But false doctrine is not the answer.
Abhoring against evil, and a godly love, are inseparable. You must do both, you must not pit the one against the other.
Hate evil, love good. Abhor evil to keep your love from becoming the sin of hypocrisy.
Please dwell on these, can you accept what Jesus is saying here? I hope you can.
This is my last installment for a few days or so. Take care.
The way truth and the life,
1Way | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/18/2004 11:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika - God says that even the wicked know how to do good. And there is righteousness in this world that man does. Being saved is by Christ's righteousness alone. Yet the bible constantly tells us to do right instead of doing wrong. So everyone knows about righteousness, just as you suggested that everyone knows what is kind and patient, which if you think about it, are good things, right?
You said quote:
Oh. I thought the "kindness of God leads to repentence". I didn't realize the end goal was the heaping of burning coals.
Come on now, again, I do not levy these two as being incongruent, you do. First comes the burning coals, then "if" they freely do right and repent, then repentance happens! That is the "desired" end result, yes, but we are not in control of "their" response, so the end goal of our response against all evil is to figuratively put burning coals upon their head, i.e. bother their conscience. Your not arguing against me, you picked two bible teachings and struggle against harmonizing them.
We know unbelief when they do not listen and accept God's word
like when God says that by obeying His instructions in Rom 12, we will be heaping burning coals upon their heads, which is obviously a figure of speech,
and they say, no, God is not saying that, it's kindness alone that leads to repentance. I am a believer in God, and I accept His word that being nice to an evil person is to concentrate heated bothersome trouble to his otherwise unbothered conscience.
Blessings | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 6/19/2004 1:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
Honestly girl, I have no idea how you do it...
You are SO gracious in your response! Sometimes I just cannot find that in me. Thanks for your example. Please pray for me. When I grow up , I want to be just like you :)
--------------------------------------------------------------
1way said:
People who sin, they are in rebellion against God.
selah: seriously 1way, I don't get it. when you speak of "people" who sin, how is it that you don't see yourself as one of "those people"??
I know I am...
Ro 3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Ro 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Ro 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Ro 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Selah: 1way, here's my question: Since Scripture seems to say that all sin, where do we/you draw the line between "our" sin (the non-excommuting type) and "their" sin (the excommuting type)?? If you could answer this question it would help me a lot!!!!!!!!
1way said: But false doctrine is not the answer.
selah: I agree:
Le 19:18 - You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Mt 5:43 -"You have heard that it was said, `you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven...
Mt 19:19 - Honor your father and mother; and you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Mt 22:39 - "The second is like it, `you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mr 12:31 - "The second is this, `you shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Lu 10:27 - And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
Ro 13:9 - For this, "You shall not..." and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Ga 5:14 - For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Jas 2:8 - however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
And one more for my sake:
Romans 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
in wonder and love,
~selah
PS y'know, wherever the line is drawn between us and them now, I'm so glad no one excommunicated me anywhere along MY path back then... (doubt I qualify now...) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/19/2004 2:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
quote:
Selah: 1way, here's my question: Since Scripture seems to say that all sin, where do we/you draw the line between "our" sin (the non-excommuting type) and "their" sin (the excommuting type)?? If you could answer this question it would help me a lot!!!!!!!!
Paul answered it this way:
1 Cor. 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 5:10 In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world, or the greedy and swindlers and idolaters, since you would then have to go out of the world. 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person. 5:12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside? 5:13 But God will judge those outside. Remove the evil person from among you.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/19/2004 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Jeff, I very much appreciate your insightful response.
I have often wondered what Jesus might have written in the sand.
Deut. 22:22 (NIV)
If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
Yes, that might very well be what Jesus wrote in the sand.
quote:
The fact that they only brought the woman pretty much gave away who and what her accusers were.
Are you implying that they all slept with her, or they were involved in adultery themselves, or they were guilty of protecting the male.
Thanks,
Mark
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/19/2004 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott - Thank you kindly, exactly the point.
I agree and would bolster your argument by relating two main points.
1) If you knowingly support, but do not commit a capitol offense like adultery, then you too are guilty of a capitol offense, so if they were all simply privy as to the event that they may have had a sting operation of some sort (somehow enlisted the help of an inside man), then they were "all" guilty by consenting to the crime. Even guilty to the extent that they all should have been put to death for bearing false testimony to the truth of the crime. Truly it seems she was guilty of adultery as that part seems narrative, but it takes two to tango, the positive lack of forthcoming information about the man is one seriously huge mitigating circumstance and indicator thus at least potentially implicating them in the crime.
2) If they were in anyway guilty of any other capitol offenses, either by "direct commission" or by "intellectual consent", then they would be a hypocrite for wanting to put to death only other capitol offenders. And on that note, it was commonly reported that the religious leaders wanted to kill Jesus, so some of them may have entertained having Jesus outright murdered, and certainly most of these folks wanted the governing authority to do their dirty work for them under the guise of a righteous execution. Again, presenting false witness to a capitol crime or aiding a capitol offender is a capitol offense.
And Jesus taught that if you hate someone without just cause, you are guilty just the same as though you actually did the offense, you can commit murder in your heart without physically murdering anyone. And I think if they were anything like the many other citations in scripture, it is clear that they were more interested in seeing Jesus die than they were seeing justice served against the adulterous woman.
Of special note, Jesus did not indicate that He had forgiven that woman, instead He said "where are your accusers" who He had just given (highly qualified) permission to put her to death! Of course no one of them was without sin except Jesus, yet every righteous execution happens at the hands of men who have sinned, so I think there is certainly a bit more to what Jesus plainly said there about being without sin. Jesus did not say that He forgave her, but He did not stone her either, neither do I condemn you (to be put to death!).
He also said stop sinning. So He may have forgiven her, God certainly has the right to forgive a capitol offender (see David for example), but the Jews did not have the right put anyone to death on their own authority, they would have had to go to Rome, and their governments were not very morally nor judiciously united. So Jesus violated nothing of His own teachings and support for the OT, plus He avoided an early conflict with Rome. But talk about one seriously sharp attack. Jesus is no one's fool. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/19/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp - Ya, me too, conference details that is. Maybe some of us will be able to have a sort of get together, that would be great. And if your not sure about meeting me in person, ok, but when we get to heaven, I will not be so avoidable!  | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/19/2004 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah - You don't seem very understanding of my viewpoint, God's teachings speak well what I believe.
Judge with righteous judgment
You who are spiritual judges all things
Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor evil and cling to good
Judge not ... you hypocrite, first judge yourself so that you may have the righteous grounds to judge others
We will judge the angels and the world, how much more things in this life
Don't give your pearls to swine, nor dogs
The fool says in his heart, there is no God
Selah posted
1way said:
People who sin, they are in rebellion against God.
selah: (1) seriously 1way, I don't get it. when you speak of "people" who sin, how is it that you don't see yourself as one of "those people"??
I know I am...
(2) Ro 3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
(3) Ro 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
(4) Ro 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
(5) Ro 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
(1Way)
(1) Your presumption that I don't see myself as one who sins is rather insulting and potentially slanderous, although I simply deny that I ever even intimated any such notion. I would appreciate it if you would not invent some bad anti-scriptural ideas in me.
(2) right
(3) amen
(4) right
(5) amen
I don't see a point in there except to say that in salvation, everyone who gets saved gets unmerited favor, our salvation is a wonderful thing. But were talking about people doing gross sin and evil, not if everyone needs to get saved or not.
Jefscott did a great job showing God's response through Paul about the adulterous woman issue.
You posted a bunch of stuff that does not overturn the righteous commands and teachings and examples for us to abhor evil, abhor, the demonstratively harsher more intensive godly hatred!
Excommunication, righteous godly execution, personal heretical rejection, ridicule, rebuke, judging not outwardly but the inward man, capitol punishment is at the heart of the gospel, these are all godly teachings that do not contradict godly love, they all come from godly love (against evil and sin). There is no dichotomy between godly love and these sometimes-awful things. Please don't be ashamed of what God teaches us to believe.
If you don't understand these things, then great, while there's life there is hope, God has given you more than ample ability and resources to learn from Him. He has given you His word through the scriptures, His example through history, He has apparently given you the Holy Spirit to guide and lead you, He has created in you a new creature that brings you towards the likeness of Christ, you have the mind of Christ, and God places within each of us who are saved the desire to grown in our knowledge of Him instead of resting in our own understandings. We will not quickly deplete the wonderful expanse of teachings from God's word.
God is not just love, even God's love must abhor evil in order to keep it from the sin of hypocrisy. God is not incomplete, He is all of His attributes. Again, love that does not abhor evil is ungodly. Abhorring evil (can be) the demonstratively harsher more intensive godly hatred! So you have abhorrence, hatred, condemning judgment and rebuke, and then several layers lower than all that, you have discernment. Good luck with the rest. :) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/19/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi 1Way,
You have a right to believe as you do. I do believe that you have a different view of the Father than I do, but that's alright. I can live with that (smiling...since I really don't have to). Being part of a nondenominational church, we have the challenge and privilege of serving alongside people with a wide diversity of theological perspectives. We learn from each other. I love that about our church. I do not have all the answers. I don't even pretend. So, I'll try to answer you as best as I know how to.
(1Way-You) "Your profile is pretty expressive as to where you are at in your faith in God. You said quote:
I'm part of a pastoral care team in a non-denominational church, a "church without walls."
(ME) We use the catch phrase, "church without walls" to remind ourselves that we are to be reaching out, not inward focused only. We also use the phrases "gathered to equip, scattered to serve" and "shared responsibility, mutual accountability."
(YOU) ...
BTW, you like songs and such, I wonder if you liked the oldies rock song from the Byrds that was based on Ecl 3:1-8. As you might imagine, I like it and find great moral relevance.
Ec 3:8 A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace.
(ME) The only thing that I believe we should hate is sin/evil.
(YOU) I would probably not be very welcome in your church for very long, because I am not very accepting of those who are too accepting of others.
(ME) You would be pleasantly surprised if that's what you're expecting.
(YOU) Your tolerance with sinners is often experienced as a form of intolerance against righteous saints who are not as tolerant as they are.
(ME) We have some "intolerant" folk as well. They are my friends.
Ultimately the conflict is unavoidable, because one is saying we should accept them, and the other is saying we should not except them. So the judge not Christian always entails a sad amount of hypocrisy, because ANYONE who disagrees with them, saying we should judge, means we are wrong for being judgmental, and that means that they are judging against us judge rightly folks, and that means they are "practicing hypocrites".
(You) And since I imagine that you are considered a Pastor, instead of that you are caring for your Pastor (the phrasing lends either way, chuckles), and I assume you are a woman that does not stipulate being over the ladies only, so I find that as another issue of contention. Although I realize that these observations are not established as to what they exactly mean, so far all indications are to me that these are rather gaping disparities from the biblical model.
(ME) I am part of a pastoral team. I am a shepherd, as each one of the team is. My husband and I are "over" pastoral care in our church. We are shepherds, and we do this together. I am not "over" any men. I would not consider that wise.
(You) Excommunication, shunning, as in "do not even eat with them". I'm not a pastor, you are. So I assume you can easily enough find the scripture for this teaching, right?
(Me) No, I'm not a pastor. I'm sorry if I miscommunicated that somehow 1Way. I am a shepherd in that I help to care for people.
I agree, that people should not hide sin. Hiding sin only gives the enemy more "clout." But, when we treat people harshly because of their sin, it encourages them to hide. There is a time to be firm, but loving. I would not refuse to eat with someone because they shared with me their struggle with sin. There is a place for church discipline, when after striving to walk alongside someone in love, they refuse to respond and the body is being hurt as well. This is never cut and dry. God is infinitely more patient and merciful than we are.
(You) Excommunication seems like a great and godly thing to do, but, maybe you know of a more wise and redemptive way, but I find God's ways are wonderful, so please explain.
(Me) In seven years we have only once had to ask someone not to attend our church. We still treat them kindly when we encounter them, and if they were to respond, would gladly restore them to a place of loving fellowship with us. I believe that is the Father's heart.
(You) I am awed by the heroics of the men aboard that one airliner who fought back and spared a target from being hit. They all died but they risked their own lives in order to save the lives of others, and they did just that. Another example would be every just war. Also, every just arrest of a criminal. Also every time a person used "self defense" against an assailant. These are all examples of righteous vengeance.
(Me) Thank you
(You) God says to reject the heretic after the first and second admonition. If we are too nice and accepting, we'll go the longest mile with them.
(Me) I think Jesus went "the longest mile."
(YOU) "You can not be agape loving if you are not abhorring that which is evil. Stop skirting the issue, if you do not minister judgment and opposition against evil, you are actually sinning instead of being loving. Abhor evil and sin in yourself first, and then of course, don't be a hypocrite, do the same in others as well. And please do not think that I am saying that harsh judgment should always be the response. I agree with the kinder approaches whenever appropriate."
(ME) I believe the Father is far more loving and compassionate than any of us could ever hope to be - and He is my example. Yes, I agree, I need to examine my own heart as I walk with others in their struggles. I am constantly doing that as the Father shows me things in my life. I am passionate about Him. He is the sweetest relationship in my life (ask my husband). Beyond that, my responsibility is to love. Sometimes loving means gently pointing out things in people's lives that are hurting them (usually requires a relationship based in love to be able to do this). Sometimes it means taking a stand for Christ that isn't "popular." Sometimes it means church discipline with a view to restore. I believe it is in Hosea, the verse that says, "In wrath, remember mercy." I believe that mercy is an attribute of God, that wrath is not an attribute, but a tool in God's hands.
(You) "Jesus did not replace the law, He does not replace the law. The law lacked what God does not lack, and that is the ability to save. But the fact that man can never measure up to God's law is the awesome truth that helps lead unsaved man into saving faith in God. So you do teach that we need God because were not good enough ourselves. So I find you somewhat equivicating on this issue.
(Me) The law lacked the power to enable us to live in righteousness. Jesus became our righteousness. The New Covenant is not lacking at all. It is not good news, it is GREAT news!
(Me) I agree with you. God hates sin, and He makes a much better judge than we do."
(You) Freewill and morality are not the same issue. That is certainly your most incongruent statement you've said yet, In fact, I say it is a non sequitur. Free will is not what sends people to hell, sin is the problem.
(Me) My understanding is that freewill and morality go hand in hand. I'm sure I am incongruent at times, and I'm sure it is not my first "non sequitur" (whatever that means). I do believe 1Way, that choice by choice, I affect eternity. That is how I try to live.
(You) "Abhoring evil is in complete harmony with godly love! The fact that you keep setting them up as being exclusive to each other shows the error you are in, and I dare say sin you are in. You can not be agape and at the same time view abhorring evil as being something to err against in favor of love."
(Me) I never said that we shouldn't abhor evil. I do. If I am in sin, I guess He will let me know, as I listen to His voice.
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/19/2004 10:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne - Overall, that was a pretty encouraging response, I would trifle with some, but at the end you said quote:
(Me) I never said that we shouldn't abhor evil. I do. If I am in sin, I guess He will let me know, as I listen to His voice.
Please see the last para. of my last post to Selah, your view has been pretty consistently "judge not", which is levels and layers below "abhorring evil". I'm glad to hear the corrections about your church and your role in it.
As to being non-denom and I don't have to believe like you , man am I glad for that! I want a wonderful reception when I get to heaven, so I'm building my house of faith with the good and precious stuff. The way I believe is not that bad  , and we need to work together towards a common united one mind faith, that is what God wants from us, so, to the extent that you are accepting of very diverse and even contrary views within Christianity, it is to that same extent that you risk violating God's word on the matter. Differences due to human inconsistencies is of course naturally tolerable, but entire systems of so called Godly doctrine that are at odds with each other, like judge not  , verses the judge rightly deal, fundamentally represents a sort of liberty that God does not approve of.
Judge not is the hypocrites golden rule.
So lets leave the elementary essentials and grow on towards maturity, holding one another accountable as we go. Non-denom is great, me too! But I do not smile at entrenched doctrinal contrariness, we need to move to correct these problems.
Shunning is not supposed to be polite and nice, you're supposed to reject them personally, turning them over to the devil, you wouldn't welcome a demon into your life, right. But I agree 100% that if they were to turn back in repentance, then open acceptance no doubt. Please consider my brown colored list in my post to Selah for further reflection and food for thought. Gotta run to the conference.
BTW, I love your tag line, but you can hold morality without being open view, but our morality seems way more meaningful because of authentic free will, yet an accurate Christian morality can be derived quite regardless of the open view. I love the open view big time, but I did not get it from these guys we keep hearing here at this web site.
Blessings
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