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Originally posted by 1way

Selah - You don't seem very understanding of my viewpoint, God's teachings speak well what I believe.

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Judge with righteous judgment

selah: this seems to be speaking of discernment. God's teachings speak well of not judging.



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Lu 6:37 - "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Mt 7:1 - "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

Mt 7:2 - "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

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1way said:
People who sin, they are in rebellion against God.

selah: (1) seriously 1way, I don't get it. when you speak of "people" who sin, how is it that you don't see yourself as one of "those people"??
I know I am...

(2) Ro 3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

(3) Ro 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

(4) Ro 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

(5) Ro 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

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(1Way)
(1) Your presumption that I don't see myself as one who sins is rather insulting and potentially slanderous, although I simply deny that I ever even intimated any such notion. I would appreciate it if you would not invent some bad anti-scriptural ideas in me.

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I don't see a point in there except to say that in salvation, everyone who gets saved gets unmerited favor, our salvation is a wonderful thing. But were talking about people doing gross sin and evil, not if everyone needs to get saved or not.

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You posted a bunch of stuff that does not overturn the righteous commands and teachings and examples for us to abhor evil, abhor, the demonstratively harsher more intensive godly hatred!

Excommunication, righteous godly execution, personal heretical rejection, ridicule, rebuke, judging not outwardly but the inward man,

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capitol punishment is at the heart of the gospel,

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these are all godly teachings that do not contradict godly love, they all come from godly love (against evil and sin). There is no dichotomy between godly love and these sometimes-awful things. Please don't be ashamed of what God teaches us to believe.

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... So you have abhorrence, hatred, condemning judgment and rebuke, and then several layers lower than all that, you have discernment.

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Good luck with the rest. :)

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Originally posted by jefscott

Selah,

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Selah: 1way, here's my question: Since Scripture seems to say that all sin, where do we/you draw the line between "our" sin (the non-excommuting type) and "their" sin (the excommuting type)?? If you could answer this question it would help me a lot!!!!!!!!

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Paul answered it this way:

1 Cor. 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 5:10 In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world, or the greedy and swindlers and idolaters, since you would then have to go out of the world. 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person. 5:12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside? 5:13 But God will judge those outside. Remove the evil person from among you.

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Originally posted by moon_river_j

B.T.W. was the conference that John E. and others are talking about in September - the one you were thinking of? The one with G. Boyd and J. Sanders? I am interested if I can get any details.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne (part of the "nicer than God" clan)

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Christos Yannaras, "Pietism as an Ecclesiological Heresy":
Chapter 8 of The Freedom of Morality
(St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood, NY: 1984), pp. 119-136.
jbburnett.com/resources/yannaras/yannaras_freedom08-pietism.pdf

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Originally posted by 1way (emphasis mine)

I am a believer in God, and I accept His word that being nice to an evil person is to concentrate heated bothersome trouble to his otherwise unbothered conscience.

or

Shunning is not supposed to be polite and nice, you're supposed to reject them personally,

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Now, it's harder to tell an advanced status nicer than God person, because, they have already learned how really intensely dumb it is to be a hypocrite. So instead of acting out their beliefs, they tend to avoid us not nicer than God folk, and keep their "nicer than God" "judge not" mentality to themselves. After all, it is terribly humiliating to act the hypocrite in front of all your friends. So they tend to withdraw, and so then you have to sort of read between the lines in order to find them out.

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selah:
I think I just fell off the "nicer than God" wagon...


why o why does this stuff bother me so?


I'd better go play video games for a few hours...

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I have committed these sins. Who do you know who hasn't? When and where do we (the non-sexually immoral, non-greedy, non-verbally abusive etc) draw the line and refuse to associate with such people?

Further, who do you know in America who isn't guilty of Greed on a world wide scale? Idolatry? (come on!) drinking? swindling? {1. To cheat or defraud of money or property. 2. To obtain by fraudulent means: swindled money from the company.} How's your taxes??

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Originally posted by jefscott

Selah,

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I have committed these sins. Who do you know who hasn't? When and where do we (the non-sexually immoral, non-greedy, non-verbally abusive etc) draw the line and refuse to associate with such people?

Further, who do you know in America who isn't guilty of Greed on a world wide scale? Idolatry? (come on!) drinking? swindling? {1. To cheat or defraud of money or property. 2. To obtain by fraudulent means: swindled money from the company.} How's your taxes??

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Since the 1 Cor. passage AND the Matt. passage are BOTH true, they can't contradict. My way of resolving the apparent contradiction is to assume that adultery in 1 Cor. PROBABLY means actual, physical adultery, for we are not to judge people's heart. In addition, I assume that Paul is talking about one who habitually lives that way like the man who took his father's wife. If a person lives habitually and outwardly noticable in those ways without repentance, then we are to exercise church discipline. And since church discipline is a collective action, you will be acting with other's who also have to interpret the verses also. So it's not as though everything about church discipline is riding on one person's interpretation.

1 Tim. 6 and 2 Tim. give further advice as to which persons one is to avoid in one-on-one interaction. 2 Thessalonians gives another example of behavior that should be treated with church discipline.

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You cite verses that prove you "get" to "do" church discipline (or in 1way's terms "shunning" "rebuking" and "ridicule") if it were me, I would dread doing that!

I guess I hoped Matthew 18 would come up as the loving way to work with someone ...or that the "excitement" over what we "get to do" would have been over RESTORING our brothers and sisters...rather than what has been said. In my opinion the focus is off...

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Originally posted by John Earp

Was Paul being unloving when he said the following?

2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

1 Tim 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful {of sinning.}

How might this God-ordained work of rebuke and discipline be put into practice in the context of a local body of believers? I am very aware that this is basically never practiced in modern evangelical churches, I'm just asking this sincerely--do we really want to be a New Testament church?

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How does "sinning-all-the-time Christianity" line up with scriptural Christianity?

1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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Finally, if sin is always inevitable and sinning is basically like breathing, how is God just for sending ANYONE to hell?

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Further, how does Paul NOT flatly contradict himself when he says, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

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I offer the above not to be combative, but sincerely as food for thought. I would sincerely like to hear what both sides in this discussion have to say about the above observations.

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P.S.: The "judge not" crowd (also known of on this board as the "love, not judgment" crowd), judge those they think of as judgers. It happens constantly (like it is with 1way in this thread).

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...I should add that I think everyone knows these facts deep down.

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How does "sinning-all-the-time Christianity" line up with scriptural Christianity?

1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

selah:
John, you sin. I sin. Help me draw the line between who is of the devil and who is not. All I'm asking you is...where is the line?

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Finally, if sin is always inevitable and sinning is basically like breathing, how is God just for sending ANYONE to hell?

selah:
GOD, who has all the knowledge of good and evil....and who knows the heart of man... ALSO knows where to draw the line. I don't think WE can say the same thing.

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Further, how does Paul NOT flatly contradict himself when he says, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

selah:
Paul was talking to people who thought it was ok to sin because grace existed... I don't. God forbid. I would say to anyone (even if I was not in on their life) that sin is bad...avoid it.

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Originally posted by John Earp

P.S.: I agree that we should be patient, gentle, and kind, even when we must judge, and that the NT epistles were addressed in the context of the loving relationships that made up the NT churches.

I also agree that we don't know enough about someone to judge someone (in the sense of ultimate condemnation); however, we do know enough to speak the truth IN LOVE, like Jesus, Paul, and all the Apostles and Prophets of the early church did.

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Originally posted by John Earp

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How does "sinning-all-the-time Christianity" line up with scriptural Christianity?

1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

selah:
John, you sin. I sin. Help me draw the line between who is of the devil and who is not. All I'm asking you is...where is the line?

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So we should just eliminate this passage from our Bibles?

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selah:
nah, why do that?

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The question is, "Is John (the Apostle) being hypocritical?" I don't think so. I also respectfully disagree with the implication/assertion that everybody sins all the time. The Scripture is clear that "he that practices sin is of the devil, and he that is born of God does not practice sin."

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selah:
well, I love John...so I'll say no, he's not being hypocritical.
I didn't say everybody sins all the time. However, whenever we default to self-motives, self-focus/reliance, and self-ishness - we sin. Which means MOST of us SIN often! The only way to avoid that consistently is to have God/love and His motives at the center at all times.

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I should add that I do find that most people tend to define sin MUCH to ambiguously. My understanding is that sin is a (willful) transgression of a (known) law (moral obligation) - 1 John 3:4. 1 John also says "His commandments are not burdensome."

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selah:
This sounds like a Wesleyan view of sin. Maybe I should ask if you believe it is possible to live a sin-less life?

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If it is true as Jesus and Paul and James and John said, that loving God and loving one's neighbor as oneself is the fulfilling of the law, and that as Scripture affirms, "His commandments are not burdensome" then it is clearly obligatory for all who call themselves Christians to "perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord" (2 Cor. 7:1) by loving God supremely and one's neighbor as oneself.

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selah:
Amen! And, how is this possible? I think by realizing more and more who we are IN CHRIST... Though He noted how the world doesn't "get it", Jesus prayed that we would know true love (which is the only way we can have it for ourselves and give it to our neighbor - AS ourselves) in John 17:25"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

I think this is key. After all, if I "get" this, His commandments are certainly not burdensome.

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Finally, if sin is always inevitable and sinning is basically like breathing, how is God just for sending ANYONE to hell?

selah:
GOD, who has all the knowledge of good and evil....and who knows the heart of man... ALSO knows where to draw the line. I don't think WE can say the same thing.

But that's not the question I asked.

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selah:
"how is God just for sending Anyone to hell?"
He is just because He knows who's solified against Him in their heart. We, on the other hand, cannot know that...even if we know someone who sins all the live long day!

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Further, how does Paul NOT flatly contradict himself when he says, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

selah:
Paul was talking to people who thought it was ok to sin because grace existed... I don't. God forbid. I would say to anyone (even if I was not in on their life) that sin is bad...avoid it.

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But we CAN'T really be expected to avoid it consistently, now, can we? (According to your point of view).

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selah:
Thanks for asking. Actually,to some degree, I do believe we can avoid it consistently. But, because of the interconnectedness of our being (the mind affects the body and sprit etc) it's a process. I will say this, as we persist in walking in love, our character solidifies. The more we do love, the less we sin... or biblically:
Col 3:10 "we put on the new self"
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Galatians 5:13-17 13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another. 14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. 16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want.

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Do you believe Jesus' words were inspired when He said, "judge righteous judgment?"

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Originally posted by John Earp

P.S.: I agree that we should be patient, gentle, and kind, even when we must judge, and that the NT epistles were addressed in the context of the loving relationships that made up the NT churches.

I also agree that we don't know enough about someone to judge someone (in the sense of ultimate condemnation); however, we do know enough to speak the truth IN LOVE, like Jesus, Paul, and all the Apostles and Prophets of the early church did.

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Originally posted by John Earp
selah:
This sounds like a Wesleyan view of sin. Maybe I should ask if you believe it is possible to live a sin-less life?

John:
My view is similar to the Wesleyan view, but it seems to me that the Wesleyan view does not go far enough. John Wesley believed that we were worthy of damnation just for being human, just like Calvin, Augustine, and most all western theologians, all of which were influenced by Augustine. Every one of the words in both Old and New Testaments translated "sin" or "transgression" denote willful activity.

I do believe we have libertarian free will, and that this means we have the power to will the contrary in any given moral situation; we are able to choose right if we are willing, with the Spirit's guidance and enablement. Moment by moment, we are able to choose life (righteousness) over death (sin). IF we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous (1 John 2:1)

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Do you believe we are worthy of hell simply for being human?

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John:
Great! I think we completely agree.

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selah:
"how is God just for sending Anyone to hell?"
He is just because He knows who's solified against Him in their heart. We, on the other hand, cannot know that...even if we know someone who sins all the live long day!

John:
What I'm getting at is not character solidification but rather the basic, fundamental reason why anyone deserves God's righteous condemnation. People are not condemned for being human, for being relatively ignorant, etc. From Genesis to Revelation, "the wages of SIN is death." God sends people to hell because of sin. True, ultimate rejection of Him does in fact coincide with character solidification, but the grounds for our condemnation is because we have personally violated what we know to be right. (see Romans 1, 2,& 3 for the progression of total moral depravity).

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As to the judge/discern distinction, I have said elsewhere that I agree completely with that distinction. The problem is, most professing Christians I've known have viewed ANY and all preaching/teaching against sin and for holiness (the basic message of the Bible) as "judgmental." We must first and foremost "judge ourselves, so that we not be condemned with the world" as Paul says in one of his letters.

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I really appreciate your responses, selah. I find you candor quite refreshing. I hope you find my responses satisfactory. I will try and be back on the board later this evening.

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Originally posted by John Earp


Hi Jo-Anne,

I am sorry that I have not gotten back with you with the info yet. I am still waiting to hear back from my contacts for the conference myself. I promise I will post a new thread as soon as I know something definite. All I know at this point is that it is in September.

God bless you,

John

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