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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 5:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
Jo-Anne - That was somewhat personally harsh or denigrating. You do not reflect well with what I have been saying, nor my most recent post to you which was one of gladness and appreciation over your views including clarifications and some misunderstandings (where I gladly stood corrected).
It seems pretty clear that you are willing to judge against others even without sufficient information to well establish your conclusions/assumptions, good for you for judging, but might I suggest adding some patience and grace in between the reality that we may be getting "many things" in some way wrong.
I only had time to read your response quickly once, but it was far from corresponding to what I have been trying to say, and notably, I treat myself with the ideals as I treat anyone else. I was accepting of you and your explainations, and then you say I would not be accepting of you and your church, so I really don't understand where you are coming from with that sort of attitude. Also, I asked you to review the biblical teachings for my view, and I did not see you address them in that post. I am espousing a belief and obedience to God's word, I would hope you might at least appreciate that much...
I am writing this very quickly so I am sorry if I missed another post from you.
I don't really remember you asking much of me, you seemed pretty set in your judgments, and I especially remember the sense that you seem to not appreciate me for my views. So, if there is anything I can do to help that, I'd be glad to respond after I get back, which I do not expect will not be till sometime Friday or this weekend.
In the way truth and life
1Way,
I was tired and rather disheartened by your last post. We have dealt with someone who is very judgemental for the past couple of years, and perhaps I reacted, instead of giving your post the consideration it deserved.
No excuses. I do not want to be ungracious - ever. That was something I determined when I came here, that if I could not be an encouragement, that I should not be here at all.
Forgive me, please. I am truly sorry for hurting you.
God Bless you,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | 1 Way,
I went back and read my post. I wanted to add a little bit, hopefully without further misunderstanding. I find it very hard when I believe I have hurt someone. That has always been hard for me. I answered you more strongly than I have answered anyone on this board, perhaps because of what I thought you were saying about me. But, that is not an excuse. I am deeply sorry for offending you. 1Way, I can't do what you think should be done with believers or non-believers. If that disappoints you, then so be it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me on this.
(You said) Jo-Anne - That was somewhat personally harsh or denigrating. You do not reflect well with what I have been saying, nor my most recent post to you which was one of gladness and appreciation over your views including clarifications and some misunderstandings (where I gladly stood corrected).
(Me) I guess I understood you to be saying, that the "judge not" crowd are guilty of the sin of hypocrisy, and I reacted to that. I guess I fit.
(You) It seems pretty clear that you are willing to judge against others even without sufficient information to well establish your conclusions/assumptions, good for you for judging, but might I suggest adding some patience and grace in between the reality that we may be getting "many things" in some way wrong.
(Me) You're right. I did this time. One of those things that can't be taken back, and another good reason in my mind why I should not judge. I am a patient person normally and I believe in "taking the high road" in relationships. I blew it with you.
(You) I only had time to read your response quickly once, but it was far from corresponding to what I have been trying to say, and notably, I treat myself with the ideals as I treat anyone else. I was accepting of you and your explainations, and then you say I would not be accepting of you and your church, so I really don't understand where you are coming from with that sort of attitude. Also, I asked you to review the biblical teachings for my view, and I did not see you address them in that post. I am espousing a belief and obedience to God's word, I would hope you might at least appreciate that much...
(Me) 1 Way, I do not believe in my heart that you would tolerate me, from what you have said in your posts. You had said something about my church as well, that you didn't feel you would be accepted there, and I replied with, "you would be pleasantly surprised" meaning that they are very gracious (the most gracious church group I have ever been a part of), and for the most part, non-judgemental (might even qualify for the nicer than God crowd that you refer to). I love them. You might too, if you met them. I thought I responded to what you were asking though. I guess I don't hit the mark all the time.
(You) I am writing this very quickly so I am sorry if I missed another post from you.
(Me) And perhaps I responded too quickly to your post, without asking what you meant before I responded.
(You) I don't really remember you asking much of me, you seemed pretty set in your judgments, and I especially remember the sense that you seem to not appreciate me for my views. So, if there is anything I can do to help that, I'd be glad to respond after I get back, which I do not expect will not be till sometime Friday or this weekend.
(Me) 1 Way, what I appreciate is honesty and love. I appreciate your honesty. I am a very honest person, and I will always answer honestly. I do not understand your position. Anyone that I have met who is that judgemental has hurt people, left, right and center. Perhaps I have misunderstood your position. I hope so. I should have asked you more questions perhaps, but I did answer yours as best I could. I really am not a person who is "set in my judgements" 1 Way. I am open to learning, open for correction... I'm teachable.
Once again, I am terribly sorry for offending you. I think I'm even more disappointed in myself though.
I guess I forgot myself, what I have said so many times, this is about "ideas, not people."
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/22/2004 12:09 AM (GMT -6) | | selah:
This sounds like a Wesleyan view of sin. Maybe I should ask if you believe it is possible to live a sin-less life?
John:
My view is similar to the Wesleyan view, but it seems to me that the Wesleyan view does not go far enough. John Wesley believed that we were worthy of damnation just for being human, just like Calvin, Augustine, and most all western theologians, all of which were influenced by Augustine. Every one of the words in both Old and New Testaments translated "sin" or "transgression" denote willful activity.
I do believe we have libertarian free will, and that this means we have the power to will the contrary in any given moral situation; we are able to choose right if we are willing, with the Spirit's guidance and enablement. Moment by moment, we are able to choose life (righteousness) over death (sin). IF we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous (1 John 2:1)
selah:
Often we rely on self, seek worth outside of that which Christ has already given (through status, attention, things of this world), and/or become self serving rather than self sacrificing. Do you think these are examples of sin? How about the times we are not loving? Those are often, indeed.
John:
If we sin, it is evident that we at that moment are not loving God and others as we ought. The root of sin is being self-seeking, self-centered. This to my understanding is "not being loving." Sinning is impossible while we are truly loving God and neighbor as we ought.
selah:
"how is God just for sending Anyone to hell?"
He is just because He knows who's solified against Him in their heart. We, on the other hand, cannot know that...even if we know someone who sins all the live long day!
John:
What I'm getting at is not character solidification but rather the basic, fundamental reason why anyone deserves God's righteous condemnation. People are not condemned for being human, for being relatively ignorant, etc. From Genesis to Revelation, "the wages of SIN is death." God sends people to hell because of sin. True, ultimate rejection of Him does in fact coincide with character solidification, but the grounds for our condemnation is because we have personally violated what we know to be right. (see Romans 1, 2,& 3 for the progression of total moral depravity).
selah:
OK, I think we are viewing sin differently. You seem to be saying that it is centered around "sinful actions" while I am saying it is more about the god of self...
John:
I agree that "the god of self" is the source of sin. Moral action, whether sinful or righteous, proceeds from the heart/will/ultimate intention. Sinful actions are only possible when the heart (ultimate center of the person) is sinful.
As to the judge/discern distinction, I have said elsewhere that I agree completely with that distinction. The problem is, most professing Christians I've known have viewed ANY and all preaching/teaching against sin and for holiness (the basic message of the Bible) as "judgmental." We must first and foremost "judge ourselves, so that we not be condemned with the world" as Paul says in one of his letters.
selah:
I agree that being against sin and being for holiness are necessary things. I do not, however, believe this is the basic message of the Bible. The basic message of the Bible (in my view) is this: love God, love yourself as He loves you, and love others. If one does all these things, everything that needs getting done, gets done (GB). Decreased sin and holiness are natural by-products of living a life of love. This, in my view is the basic message of the Bible.
John:
I agree. To my understanding, love IS holiness, and selfishness is sinfulness.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/22/2004 12:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
Repost from 6-18
John Earp - Wow, John Sanders and Greg Boyd, that would be most excellent, and only a 20 minuet drive from my place! I've personally met John Sanders and even Sat in on one of his classes where I was blessed to hear him do an absolutely wonderful job covering the whole hardening of Pharaoh's hart bit. We (a friend who lived nearer to the college) chatted with him after class, we chatted to his office, and somewhat after we got there too. We had a great time that day. It would be a great honor to be able to listen to Mr. Boyd and Mr. Sanders at that conference. That they have speakers on the open view is just plain exciting! Thanks for the info and suggestion, sounds great!
Repost from 6-19
John Earp - Ya, me too, conference details that is. Maybe some of us will be able to have a sort of get together, that would be great. And if your not sure about meeting me in person, ok, but when we get to heaven, I will not be so avoidable!  
I hope I am not on your excommunication list... Looking forward to your response.
LOL. I look forward to meeting you and everyone else who decides to attend. 
The conference details are at the following link:
http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3369
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/22/2004 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I believe the basic message of the bible is that we ALL are sinners. That our debt is so great we could not even begin to pay for our own sins. Trying so would be like trying to pay off the national deficit with your weekly paycheck. I believe God loves us madly and sent his son Jesus to pay this debt. I believe God is like the umpire in the game who could judge our pitching but instead wants to come out and tell us where we could improve to have a better pitch. I believe Jesus came to pay the debt for his bride and give her endless credit through this amazing gift called grace. ALL we need to do is accept. Jesus stands at the altar and waits for his bride to say "I do" THAT'S IT. That is the message of the bible. Once we say "I do" the Holy Spirit comes in and begins to transform us each individually.
What's to disagree about. We are to be like a team (cheering one another on) and allow God to act as the umpire who wants to help the off pitcher to win the game instead of just judging how the pitcher is performing. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/22/2004 1:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
I believe the basic message of the bible is that we ALL are sinners.
I certainly agree that all have sinned, and thus none can ever deserve heaven. I think the crucial question is shall we continue in sin?
quote:
That our debt is so great we could not even begin to pay for our own sins.
I don't know of anyone who believes we can ever "pay" even for one sin, in the sense of making up for it. Only an atonement will do.
quote:
I believe God loves us madly and sent his son Jesus to pay this debt.
Though a popular theory, I have never been able to find Scriptural evidence for the idea that Christ's death was a payment of debt. I find ample evidence in Scripture that His death was payment of a ransom/redemption price, but nothing that would indicate we no longer are indebted to do right.
quote:
I believe Jesus came to pay the debt for his bride and give her endless credit through this amazing gift called grace.
So we can sin all we want, and have heaven guaranteed too?
quote:
ALL we need to do is accept. Jesus stands at the altar and waits for his bride to say "I do" THAT'S IT. That is the message of the bible. Once we say "I do" the Holy Spirit comes in and begins to transform us each individually.
I find Scripture to teach clearly that salvation has the following basic conditions attached to it:
1. Repentance (turning from all sin and committing oneself to live righteously in Christ).
2. Faith (submitting to the truth of the Gospel by a committal of the will).
3. Perseverance until death in the state of holiness that results by being "in Christ" through repentance and faith. (Heb. 12:14, Matt. 5:8, 2 Cor. 7:1, Romans 6 & 8:1-14)
quote:
What's to disagree about. We are to be like a team (cheering one another on) and allow God to act as the umpire who wants to help the off pitcher to win the game instead of just judging how the pitcher is performing.
Yes, we should be intent on helping our brothers and sisters to win the game. Part of this process involves exhorting (encouraging), reproving, and rebuking when necessary.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/22/2004 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
1. Repentance (turning from all sin and committing oneself to live righteously in Christ).
Repentance -- realizing that we CANNOT repay the debt that WE owe. We acknowledge that we need the saving grace of God and owe him everything for his grace.
quote:
2. Faith (submitting to the truth of the Gospel by a committal of the will).
Faith -- trusting and believing in. Christian faith is trusting in the Word of God and believing that Christ will be faithful to complete the good work he begins in us.
quote:
3. Perseverance until death in the state of holiness that results by being "in Christ" through repentance and faith. (Heb. 12:14, Matt. 5:8, 2 Cor. 7:1, Romans 6 & 8:1-14)
It is NOT by our works but the the Spirit of the Lord. The Holy Spirit comes into our lives when we say "I do" at the altar and we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Each person is on their own journey and Christ meets us where we are at. It's not about us but about Christ in us the hope of glory.
quote:
Yes, we should be intent on helping our brothers and sisters to win the game. Part of this process involves exhorting (encouraging), reproving, and rebuking when necessary.
If all the team players in the ballgame began to give the pitcher their two cents to improve his/her pitching I am sure the pitcher would want to throw down the glove and quit pitching. If their best friend on the team, their coach, the umpire, who cares about their performance, gave some encouraging words and suggestions then I believe the pitcher would be much more encouraged and receptive. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/22/2004 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | | John, the difference I find between what you said and what I said is that you make it seem more on OUR "doing". I believe salvation and transformation is God's doing through us. Repentence is turning around on the path. Repentance is running toward Christ's forgiving arms but instead of us running at all he is right behind us waiting for us. When we head down the road the wrong way he is waiting for us to turn around and he immediately runs towards us when we do turn around. We make the choice and he does all the work. Perhaps we are saying the same thing?
The "it" that you asked me about is "preserverance until death". Preserverance is not at all about us but about Christ in us the hope of glory. He is our strength. The Holy Spirit fills us with the preserverance and strength to walk the path. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 6/23/2004 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Nessie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 6/23/2004 5:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/23/2004 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah clipped and posted these quotes. WONDERFUL!
quote:
"River of Fire"
www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm
"Paradise or hell depends on how we will accept God's love. Will we return love for love, or will we respond to His love with hate? This is the critical difference. And this difference depends entirely on us, on our freedom, on our innermost free choice, on a perfectly free attitude which is not influenced by external conditions or internal factors of our material and psychological nature, because it is not an external act but an interior attitude coming from the bottom of our heart, conditioning not our sins, but the way we think about our sins, as it is clearly seen in the case of the publican and the Pharisee and in the case of the two robbers crucified with Christ. This freedom, this choice, this inner attitude toward our Creator is the innermost core of our eternal personality, it is the most profound of our characteristics, it is what makes us that which we are, it is our eternal face — bright or dark, loving or hating.
No, my brothers, unhappily for us, paradise or hell does not depend on God. If it depended on God, we would have nothing to fear. We have nothing to fear from Love. But it does not depend on God. It depends entirely upon us, and this is the whole tragedy. God wants us to be in His image, eternally free. He respects us absolutely. This is love. Without respect, we cannot speak of love. We are men because we are free. If we were not free, we would be clever animals, not men. God will never take back this gift of freedom which renders us what we are. This means that we will always be what we want to be, friends or enemies of God, and there is no changing in this our deepest self. In this life, there are profound or superficial changes in our life, in our character, in our beliefs, but all these changes are only the expression in time of our deepest eternal self. This deep eternal self is eternal, with all the meaning of the word. This is why paradise and hell are also eternal. There is no changing in what we really are. Our temporal characteristics and our history in life depend on many superficial things 'which vanish with death, but our real personality is not superficial and does not depend on changing and vanishing things. It is our real self. It remains with us when we sleep in the grave, and will be our real face in the resurrection. It is eternal.
and...
"Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head."
Further ...
"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it" (Homily 84)."
and...
" Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. "
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/23/2004 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
John, the difference I find between what you said and what I said is that you make it seem more on OUR "doing".
Along with all free will theists, I believe our relationship with God (including perseverance) is synergistic, not monergistic.
quote:
I believe salvation and transformation is God's doing through us. Repentence is turning around on the path. Repentance is running toward Christ's forgiving arms but instead of us running at all he is right behind us waiting for us. When we head down the road the wrong way he is waiting for us to turn around and he immediately runs towards us when we do turn around. We make the choice and he does all the work. Perhaps we are saying the same thing?
I agree. I think it is expressed most succintly by Paul in the following passage:
Phil 2:12 ¶ So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; (this is our part--JE)
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure. (this is God's part--JE)
quote:
The "it" that you asked me about is "preserverance until death". Preserverance is not at all about us but about Christ in us the hope of glory. He is our strength. The Holy Spirit fills us with the preserverance and strength to walk the path.
The only thing I would tweak a little bit in the your sentences is your statement, "perseverance is not at all about us..." The Scriptures seems to place much emphasis on OUR responsibility to follow the Master in all things, to submit to Him unreservedly, to obey Him from the heart. Again, the Phil. 2 passage states this most plainly. If it were "not at all about us" in the sense that we had to do nothing at all, then we must edit much of the New Testament to adjust to our inherent tendency to spiritual laziness.
For example:
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is {still} called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, "Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked me."
Heb 3:16 For who provoked {Him} when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt {led} by Moses?
Heb 3:17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 {So} we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/23/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Friends,
The following is an excerpt from the Systematic Theology of Charles Finney (1851 edition), which I think does an excellent job describing the synergistic nature of salvation, sanctification, perseverance, etc. I find Finney's argumentation convincing.
(Begin Quote)
Their conversion, perseverance, and salvation, are
secured by means of the grace of God in Christ Jesus,
prevailing through the gospel, so to influence their
free-will as to bring about this result. The
instructions, promises, threatenings, warnings,
expostulations of the Bible, with all the influences
with which they are surrounded, are the
instrumentalities by means of which the Holy Spirit
converts, sanctifies, and saves them. ***At every step,
as Fletcher acknowledges, "grace is beforehand with
free-will." God first comes to, and moves upon, the
sinner; but the sinner does not come to and move, or
attempt to move God. God first draws, and the sinner
yields. God calls, and the sinner answers. The sinner
would never approach God, did not God draw him. ***
Again: God calls effectually, **but not
irresistibly**, before the sinner yields. He does not
yield and answer to a slight call. Some indeed wait to
be drawn harder, and to be called louder and longer
than others; but no one, in fact, comes to God until
effectually persuaded to do so; that is, until he is
effectually hunted from his refuges of lies, and drawn
with so great and powerful a drawing, as not to force,
but to overcome, his reluctance or voluntary
selfishness, and as to induce him to turn to God and
to believe in Christ. That the sinner is wholly
disinclined to obey, up to the very moment in which he
is persuaded and induced to yield, there can be no
doubt. His turning, as we have seen, is an act of his
own, but he is induced to turn by the drawings of the
Holy Spirit.
Every person who was ever truly converted knows,
that his conversion is **not to be ascribed to himself,**
in any other sense, than that he finally consented,
**being drawn and persuaded by the Holy Spirit**. The
glory belongs to God, for the sinner only yielded
after, perhaps, protracted resistance, and never until
after he was so convinced as to have no further excuse
or apology for sin, nor until the Spirit, by means of
truth, and argument, and persuasion, fairly overcame
him, and constrained, not forced him to submit. This
is a brief statement of the facts connected with the
conversion of every soul that was ever converted to
God. This is true of the conversion of all the elect
of God; and if others besides the elect are ever
converted, this is a true account of their conversion.
Again: the same is true of their perseverance in
holiness, in every instance, and in every act. The
saints persevere, not by virtue of a constitutional
change, but alone by virtue, or as a result of the
abiding and indwelling influence of the Holy Spirit.
"Free grace is always beforehand with free-will;" **that
is, the will never obeys, in any instance, nor for one
moment, *except as it is persuaded to do so* as really
as at the first.** The work begun by the Holy Spirit is
not carried on, except as the same Spirit continues to
work in the saints to will and to do of his good
pleasure. Saints do not begin in the Spirit, and then
become perfect through or by the flesh. **There is no
holy exercise that is not as really to be ascribed to
the grace and to the influence of the Holy Spirit, as
is conversion itself.**
**The saints convert not themselves, in the sense
that they turn or yield when drawn, until persuaded by
the Holy Spirit**. God converts them in the sense, that
he effectually draws or persuades them. They turn
themselves, in the sense that their turning is their
own act. God turns them, in the sense that he induces
or produces their turning. The same is true of their
whole course of obedience in this life. The saints
keep themselves, in the sense, that all obedience is
their own; all their piety consists in their own
voluntary obedience; ***but God keeps them, in the sense,
that in every instance, and at every moment of
obedience, he persuades, and enlightens, and draws
them, insomuch, that he secures their voluntary
obedience; that is, he draws and they follow. He
persuades, and they yield to his persuasions. He works
in them to will and to do, and they will and do.*** God
always anticipates all their holy exercises, and
persuades the saints to put them forth. This is so
abundantly taught in the Bible, that to quote
scripture to prove it would but waste your time. **The
saints are not only said to be converted, but also
sanctified, and kept by the power of God. **
**No saint then keeps himself, except in so far as
he is kept by the grace, and Spirit, and power of God.**
There is therefore no hope for any saint, and no
reason to calculate upon the salvation of any one,
unless God prevails to keep him from falling away and
perishing. **All who ever are saved, or ever will be,
are saved by and through free grace, prevailing over
free will, that is, by free grace securing the
voluntary concurrence of free will.** This God does, and
is sure to do, with all the elect.
--
Finney 1851 Systematic Theology, Lecture LXXIX,
Perseverance of Saints
____________________________
What saint who has ever been revealed to himself by the Holy
Spirit, has not seen what Paul saw when he said, "In
me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing?" Who
that has been made acquainted with himself does not
know that **he never did, and never will take one step
towards heaven, except as he is anticipated and drawn
by the grace of God in Christ Jesus?** **Who that knows
himself does not understand that he never would have
been converted, but for the grace of God anticipating
and exciting the first motions of his mind in a right
direction?** And what true saint does not know, that
such are his former habitudes, and such the
circumstances of trial under which he is placed, and
such the downward tendency of his own soul on account
of his physical depravity, that although
converted, he shall not persevere for an hour, except
the indwelling grace and Spirit of God shall hold him
up, and quicken him in the path of holiness?
Finney, Systematic Theology 1851, Lec. LXXXI,
"Perseverance of the Saints."
In Christ,
=====
John Earp
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/26/2004 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne - Well that puts the icing on my cake from a wonderful week of fellowship last week, thanks for your response of clarification.
As to forgiveness, well, I'm sure my attitude and words are not without fault and neither of us are very certain about some things about each other. I forgive you, but in my heart is gladness that all is not so bad. And perhaps more importantly, I accept you with the struggles and all. And we are really in a formative understanding period, so really these sorts of, you know, misunderstandings and what not, are quite understandable and in my view, love covers quite well.
You know what? I'm learning and growing. This conference really was wonderful for me. It is so great to feel God and His love working in your life, and in the lives of others around you. God's love has a wonderful way of settling so many issues and problems. Plainly, I am being led to be less harsh and more kind and accepting, especially in areas of mutual Christian dialogue. The harsher stuff may be reserved for less everyday things. The way of gracious living is a fine art, one that I hope to do better in my own life. Thank you much for seeing something in me to care enough about it, as you have!
We'll see about the hypocrisy bit, perhaps, and, perhaps not as much as one might think. It was on my heart to say to you, that I am not clear from such things myself, and overall, you seem like you have a soft and personable heart for people. May some hypocrisy apply, (perhaps) and I think most likely it does, but, that is not the end of the story, love covers greatly. Thanks for being as gracious as you have been.
Jo-Ann posted
(You) It seems pretty clear that you are willing to judge against others even without sufficient information to well establish your conclusions/assumptions, good for you for judging, but might I suggest adding some patience and grace in between the reality that we may be getting "many things" in some way wrong.
(Me) You're right. I did this time. One of those things that can't be taken back, and another good reason in my mind why I should not judge. I am a patient person normally and I believe in "taking the high road" in relationships. I blew it with you.
Chuckles. You scored, you responded well despite the struggles. Consider.
Pr 9:8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise [man], and he will love you.
I effectively rebuked you, and you loved me, and all is well. It is for this reason that I really don't feel I needed to forgive you, because the offensive issue has been dissolved or made right, and I believe we're both the better for it. And throughout the entire issue, judgment was at play, even the end where you judged yourself and that I'm sure in some ways I had to some extent given you cause, and in other ways I did not.
Food for thought. Judging is a good thing. I believe that the judge not mindset, or heartset, is more what leads to these sorts of problems. Consider it this way, we have godly caring between us, and interpersonal humility towards ourselves and others, that is wonderful. Going through the rough edges to get there is just part of it. You have responded to me in a most precious way, it is not at all often to see someone corrected and then be so caring/loving! I'm blessed.
Jo-Anne posted
(You) I only had time to read your response quickly once, but it was far from corresponding to what I have been trying to say, and notably, I treat myself with the ideals as I treat anyone else. I was accepting of you and your explainations, and then you say I would not be accepting of you and your church, so I really don't understand where you are coming from with that sort of attitude. Also, I asked you to review the biblical teachings for my view, and I did not see you address them in that post. I am espousing a belief and obedience to God's word, I would hope you might at least appreciate that much...
(Me) 1 Way, I do not believe in my heart that you would tolerate me, from what you have said in your posts. You had said something about my church as well, that you didn't feel you would be accepted there, and I replied with, "you would be pleasantly surprised" meaning that they are very gracious (the most gracious church group I have ever been a part of), and for the most part, non-judgemental (might even qualify for the nicer than God crowd that you refer to). I love them. You might too, if you met them. I thought I responded to what you were asking though. I guess I don't hit the mark all the time.
Well, you may well be right about much of that depending on how non-judgmental they/you are. I say that it is wrong to speak neutrally about wickedness and evil. You know like when the Pastor recommends that we watch less TV or go to less worldly movies and so on, we "permit" so much negative ungodly influences in our lives. So, my point is very similar. If we laugh at a raunchy joke, then we are tacitly giving our approval to communicating sexual immorality. If we consent to the idea that abortion is fine for the cases of rape and incest, then we affirm that it's ok to shed innocent blood in the name of tolerance and moderation. So yes, I am offended if people are too non-judgmental especially when they should be not only be judgmental, they should rebuke and abhor that which is evil.
We should not be amoral (neutral) about an extreme moral wrong. I think it is wicked to make "normal or acceptable", evil. ... I'm not saying your doing that per say, or that your doing that on purpose, but it's just a solid general rule that I believe is very scriptural. I'd like to end up dealing more on what scripture says about judging and hating and rebuking and abhorring. Judging is the least of these in my view, yet is also the best starting point.
Jo-Anne posted
I guess I forgot myself, what I have said so many times, this is about "ideas, not people."
People and ideas are all together, why set them apart, they are naturally a part of who we are. You can never be who you are without ideas, like you said, and like I very much appreciate, you are honest, and it is impossible to be honest without expressing what is on your heart to say. People and relationships are the most important things in the universe. We share because we care, growth in the Lord REQUIRES each of us to find a place in our life where we are wrong.
ouch
But praise God when it happens (growing pains).
Thank you so much for sharing with me, and for helping me refocus my own intentions. I look forward to more.
In the way truth and life | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/26/2004 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah - Sorry for not being more responsive, and thanks for advocating unavoidance. I'll try to catch up on posts soon, thanks for the reminder. I would be honored to meet you at the upcoming conference. My last conference was free except for the lodging, I wonder how this conference is handled.
PS Thoughts and prayers request.
I just wish I had someone to help me with a serious personal struggle in life. I'm terrible at domestic concerns (home economics), but am great to learn/serve/share unto the Lord. And I really only have one friend in my area and he is not one to be of much support in this. So I'll just keep searching and doing the best that I can in the mean time.
Blessings,
1Way | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/27/2004 2:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah - Thanks, I really appreciate the thoughts and prayers, and it would be great to see you and John Earp and others at the conference.
selah said:
I can relate 1way. Besides love, I think the main thing is perseverance. Don't let it get you down...and keep on truckin' (Opps, I guess that is an old term!) Anyway, try to enter God's peace and press on in love... take care at home before you try to do ministry. We must love our neighbor AS ourselves. I'm praying for you.
Thanks.
Not only has it got me down, I'm down and out (knocked out). I am not kidding when I say how hurt I am. I think I need a solid jump start to get me going again. I need to get over that hurtle, I need to get started, once I get started, I should be ok, but I will not do it until I can at least see some light at the end of the tunnel. I see/know too much futility, and struggling seems to just make the pain worse. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/27/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks much Jefscott, my tunnel of darkness goes waaaaaaaay back, and most of it can not relent.
Here's more that I also believe.
Pr 12:25 Anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, But a good word makes it glad.
Php 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy——meditate on these things.
I've waited my whole adult life to settle down and get married and share my love and hopefully have my own family, but such a thing seems impossible for me, so my heart is beyond heavy.
(My what a fun and happy story) 
And what a place I picked to open up (chuckles), a place that promotes ideas  above people.  | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/27/2004 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | |
(1 Way) Jo-Anne - Well that puts the icing on my cake from a wonderful week of fellowship last week, thanks for your response of clarification.
(Jo-Anne) Glad "we're" alright 1 Way, and I'm glad you had a wonderful week last week.
(1 Way) The way of gracious living is a fine art, one that I hope to do better in my own life.
(Jo-Anne) Me too (and nicely put by the way).
(1 Way) Food for thought. Judging is a good thing. I believe that the judge not mindset, or heartset, is more what leads to these sorts of problems. Consider it this way, we have godly caring between us, and interpersonal humility towards ourselves and others, that is wonderful. Going through the rough edges to get there is just part of it. You have responded to me in a most precious way, it is not at all often to see someone corrected and then be so caring/loving! I'm blessed.
(Jo-Anne) I guess I still see this as discernment 1 Way, perhaps coupled with speaking the truth in love. In that sense of judging, I agree.
(1 Way) Well, you may well be right about much of that depending on how non-judgmental they/you are. I say that it is wrong to speak neutrally about wickedness and evil.
(Jo-Anne) I agree with you. It is wrong to speak neutrally about wickedness and evil. We are on the same track in that regard 1 Way. But they're an incredibly gracious bunch, and that is godly too.
(1 Way) We should not be amoral (neutral) about an extreme moral wrong. I think it is wicked to make "normal or acceptable", evil. ...
(Jo-Anne) I agree totally.
(1 Way)People and ideas are all together, why set them apart, they are naturally a part of who we are. You can never be who you are without ideas, like you said, and like I very much appreciate, you are honest, and it is impossible to be honest without expressing what is on your heart to say. People and relationships are the most important things in the universe. We share because we care, growth in the Lord REQUIRES each of us to find a place in our life where we are wrong
(Jo-Anne) You're right, we are people with ideas. I guess what I meant more than that, is that we should not take things here as personally, at least without being clear about what is being said. I have had to learn that, and at times i still fall into that.
God bless. How can I pray for you?
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/27/2004 8:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
Thanks much Jefscott, my tunnel of darkness goes waaaaaaaay back, and most of it can not relent.
Here's more that I also believe.
Pr 12:25 Anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, But a good word makes it glad.
Php 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy——meditate on these things.
I've waited my whole adult life to settle down and get married and share my love and hopeful have my own family, but such a thing seems impossible for me, so my heart is beyond heavy.
(My what a fun and happy story)
And what a place I picked to open up (chuckles), a place that promotes ideas above people.
1 Way,
I am passionate about praying and I know that prayer makes a difference. I want to assure you that I'm praying for you. You know, when I said that I needed to remember that the board is about ideas, not people? Well, I was quoting a line that Dr. Boyd posted months ago, and I understand what he meant by it. But, I know that the people here do care about each other, as brothers and sisters in Christ. I've seen people reach out in a very caring way when someone hurts (see the thread on marriage). And, when our son was badly hurt, I shared that as a prayer request, and people were wonderful, beginning with, and especially Spenlake. He was the first to assure me that he was praying, and he was one of the few who asked me how Owen was doing after that. I really appreciated that. So, in a way, this is about people too. And it amazes me how you can care about someone you've never met. I see it all the time here, and I have prayed for several people who have expressed a need for prayer here.
1 Way, do you have someone to walk alongside you? I hope so. I would like to ask you why you feel that settling down in marriage is impossible now, but I don't know if that is prying. I don't want to do that, so if you just ignore that - I will not be offended. I guess sometimes we want to "fix" things for people, when "fixing" things is just not possible. Sometimes the best thing we can do is pray, offer a pat on the arm, or a hug. But at times, insights here have proven very valuable, and I appreciate the courage that people have to share where they are vulnerable in this journey. It has inspired me, and given me courage to do the same.
I hope that you can rest in Him, and I know that He will meet you where you are at. Words just don't seem to be enough in times like these. I know. I've experienced times of gut-wrenching pain in the past couple of years, cried more than I ever have, even though the Lord has done some incredible healing in my life and transformed my life.
I shared a message this morning at our church (& no...I'm not a pastor...smile), about Faith Righteousness. It is an oasis for our soul. No matter what is going on in or around us, He is there, and we are complete IN HIM. We are not lacking IN HIM, and we are righteous, because He is righteous.
Be of good courage 1 Way. Take heart. It can be a lonely walk at times. I know. I guess the one real thing in my life that I've experienced in times like these, is the promise that if we draw near to Him, He will draw near to us. It is the one guarantee that we have in this life.
I'll pray for you tonight, but I'd like to pray for you here as well. I hope you don't mind. "Father, thank you for giving 1 Way the courage to share his heart here, to express the desire of his heart, and to be vulnerable. Father, I pray that you would refresh him, give Him new hope. I pray that you will fan sparks of hope into a flame that will burn brightly again. I pray that, as he draws near to You, that you will make Your presence known to Him in a sweeter, dearer way than before. I pray that He would experience your presence in a very real way. I pray that You will protect him from the wiles of the enemy in this time of trial. And, I pray that you will give him peace and joy and rest, in the midst of this. Father, restore the joy of Your salvation to 1 Way. I pray that he will not grow too weary or faint of heart. I ask Lord, that You would show him how incredibly precious he is to you. You are the God of all comfort. You are our righteousness. I pray that You would be what he needs right now, and also give him the fellowship, and comfort of friends and family, and community - in Jesus name.
Goodnight and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 6/28/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne
Thank you
God works in ways we don't always expect. I am encouraged and appreciate your approach and caring (all the way around). How is your son Owen now? I did not know, I hope he is better.
Words and ideas are not always enough, we need each other, and (pause), no, I have no one to help, no friend or confidant. I wish I did so many times. But I have been looking and trying for many many years. Most people do not know how to respond to my numerous struggles in life. Smile, I hate mentioning the particulars, it quickly reduces the helpful advice to about nothing. I am a wreck.
Lately, before my accident, my earning a living problems was finally starting to become resolved, but then the accident happened, and so now it's even worse than before with my backache and not being able to drive, so this sets me back to before when I first got this last trucking job which was two years ago, the best job I ever had. And I have not been going to church, only have online relationships.
My problems in domestic "making a living" life, are overwhelming  , I can not see the light, hope seems far away at best, hope seems to have left, instead I have failure after failure. But in Christ I am confident, I am more than a conqueror, but in life I am not, in heaven I have good hope for wonderful treasures, on Earth I am in debt and failure.
As to my hopes for marriage, I can't accept a life without giving my love to another , and helping my would be family grow in the Lord, but I see no reasonable way for that to happen because of these problems, so I'm stuck. Why even try, it hurts too much to try and fail again. I know of no one who has the factors working against them in my life that I do. No one understands, very few even try. Most people assume so much commonality and ability to prosper and do well, you know, you live in America, you have your health, your smart so you have everything in the world going for you, just be encouraged and go out and do it. That is not my way in life, far from it.
I feel like the 12 apostles arguing doctrine with Paul at the Jerusalem council, specifically between themselves and "the law". They said that their life circumstances, meaning that they were under the law, was a burden TOO heavy for them to carry. It was a significant factor for their many failures. Same for me, only with different issues. Here, I can't say how to be prayed for, I can't hardly even ask for help at all. Not publicly, I need someone I can confide in, someone who will help me stand up again, and see the hope that I want to see, but can't see it. It is too much to ask. These posts are very hard for me to give, I can tell this sort of thing to my best friend(s) (even pastors), and none will help, none know how, or they don't have time to spend, many valid reasons, the most common response is, I don't know what to say, but Jesus loves you, etc. I'm not looking for others to fix my problems, I'm just looking for help to get me trying again. I will somehow make my way through life.
But I still need help, so here it is, less and less hope, less and less help, less and less every time.
But doing this seems helpful, or I would not have written as I have, I am generally encouraged, but I need specific attention. If I could find someone to confide in, I could talk on the phone after 9pm Indiana time or on weekends anytime, because of free promotional minuets on my cell phone.
Thank you for prayers, and your time. I will say a prayer of thanks in my heart, I am thankful. Sorry for going off topic. (This is it, probably wont open up more than this here, I appreciate everyone's time and patience.) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/28/2004 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi 1-Way,
I have a hyphen in my name because my name is actually Josephine Anne (gulp). I've always hated that. Actually, I don't think about it anymore. No one calls me that. I get called either Jo-Anne or Josie, mostly Jo-Anne. Anyway, I'm sorry that I didn't answer that question the first time, and now it seems too trivial to include here!
(1 Way) God works in ways we don't always expect. I am encouraged and appreciate your approach and caring (all the way around). How is your son Owen now? I did not know, I hope he is better.
(Jo-Anne) You are right. He does work in ways we don't expect. He is creatively sovereign in His response to us. He speaks to us in more ways than we dare imagine. Owen is great now...out whitewater kayaking. He's done that since he was 9. He's great at it - may have a job as a rafting guide on the Tatshenshini. He just graduated and I'm so relieved!
(1 Way) Words and ideas are not always enough, we need each other, and (pause), no, I have no one to help, no friend or confidant. I wish I did so many times. But I have been looking and trying for many many years. Most people do not know how to respond to my numerous struggles in life. Smile, I hate mentioning the particulars, it quickly reduces the helpful advice to about nothing. I am a wreck.
(Jo-Anne) You're right. Words and ideas are not enough. He never meant for us to journey alone. That's why we have community, even this is a kind of community. I don't want to sound like I have all the answers. I don't. I've been through some excruciatingly painful times myself in the past couple of years, and felt somewhat alone, even though I knew that I really wasn't alone. I decided to press in closer to Him, and it really did make the difference for me.
Perhaps you just haven't found someone who could relate to your trials? I don't know. Sometimes people don't have the compassion or the time, or the understanding or...on and on the list goes. I don't think it's necessarily that people don't care. I think it's often that they don't know what to say, or they're afraid to be honest, or they're afraid of the sacrifice it might require on their part, or perhaps they are too fragile themselves... (the list goes on).
(1 Way) Lately, before my accident, my earning a living problems was finally starting to become resolved, but then the accident happened, and so now it's even worse than before with my backache and not being able to drive, so this sets me back to before when I first got this last trucking job which was two years ago, the best job I ever had. And I have not been going to church, only have online relationships.
(Jo-Anne) Sounds like it must have been a serious accident 1 Way. Why would that change you going to church, if you don't mind me asking?
(1 Way) My problems in domestic "making a living" life, are overwhelming , I can not see the light, hope seems far away at best, hope seems to have left, instead I have failure after failure. But in Christ I am confident, I am more than a conqueror, but in life I am not, in heaven I have good hope for wonderful treasures, on Earth I am in debt and failure.
(Jo-Anne) 1 Way, it sounds like you do have hope. Sometimes we have to cling to that. At times it feels like we are barely hanging on, I know. I think all of us know (at one time or another).
(1 Way) As to my hopes for marriage, I can't accept a life without giving my love to another , and helping my would be family grow in the Lord, but I see no reasonable way for that to happen because of these problems, so I'm stuck. Why even try, it hurts too much to try and fail again. I know of no one who has the factors working against them in my life that I do. No one understands, very few even try. Most people assume so much commonality and ability to prosper and do well, you know, you live in America, you have your health, your smart so you have everything in the world going for you, just be encouraged and go out and do it. That is not my way in life, far from it.
(Jo-Anne) Please let us try and understand. You just never know, as you've said, what or who God may use to speak to you. He always surprises me. I love that about Him! A couple of weeks ago, a man about your age spoke at our church. He was a youth pastor from Aussie. He shared this story - very moving. He has a friend with 3-5 second Tourettes Syndrome. That means, that every 3-5 seconds this man snorts, scratching his nose, then scratches somewhere else (I won't mention where). One day his friend came to him and told him that he felt called into the ministry. This man looked at him in disbelief - and wonder. And guess what? The man with tourette's is married to a wonderful lady, and pastor of a church that is thriving, and yes - he still has 3-5 second tourettes. I know it sounds radical and unbelievable, but it is amazing what God can do, that we never dreamed possible. (Ephesians 3:20) I love how the Message Bible puts it..."God can do anything, you know - far more than you could evr imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams! He does it not by pushing us arund but by working within us, his Spirit deeply and gently within us."
(1 Way) I feel like the 12 apostles arguing doctrine with Paul at the Jerusalem council, specifically between themselves and "the law". They said that their life circumstances, meaning that they were under the law, was a burden TOO heavy for them to carry. It was a significant factor for their many failures. Same for me, only with different issues. Here, I can't say how to be prayed for, I can't hardly even ask for help at all. Not publicly, I need someone I can confide in, someone who will help me stand up again, and see the hope that I want to see, but can't see it. It is too much to ask. These posts are very hard for me to give, I can tell this sort of thing to my best friend(s) (even pastors), and none will help, none know how, or they don't have time to spend, many valid reasons, the most common response is, I don't know what to say, but Jesus loves you, etc. I'm not looking for others to fix my problems, I'm just looking for help to get me trying again. I will somehow make my way through life.
(Jo-Anne) The law was profitable for knowledge. It made us aware of sin. But it did not, nor can it, make us righteous. Only He can do that. He qualifies us. A friend shared this with me today, and I thought it was a wonderful analogy. Jesus ran the qualifying race, so that we can be in the final race. I love thoughts like that. 1 Way, no matter what you think, or what you are told, you are righteous in Him. The enemy connects us to a sense of lack - and that is where we fall into temptation. That is what he did to Eve...convinced her that she lacked wisdom - and Voila! He connected her to a sense of lack. You know what? I did a message this past Sunday on Faith righteousness. I could send it to you if you'd like to read it - I'm not looking for any kudos...but I think it might encourage you. I'll let you decide though. If you don't mention it, it won't bother me a bit, and I won't mention it again.
(1 Way) But I still need help, so here it is, less and less hope, less and less help, less and less every time.
(Jo-Anne) I know your feelings are real. And, I'm an eternal optimist, but sometimes things are not what we perceive them to be, and still seem very real. The enemy gets us there as well. He is a real spirit of unreality (can't remember who said that, but how true it is!)
(1 Way) But doing this seems helpful, or I would not have written as I have, I am generally encouraged, but I need specific attention. If I could find someone to confide in, I could talk on the phone after 9pm Indiana time or on weekends anytime, because of free promotional minuets on my cell phone.
(Jo-Anne) I'm glad this seems helpful. It took courage for you to share this. Perhaps it will inspire others (myself included) to be just as courageous.
(1 Way) Thank you for prayers, and your time. I will say a prayer of thanks in my heart, I am thankful. Sorry for going off topic. (This is it, probably wont open up more than this here, I appreciate everyone's time and patience.)
(Jo-Anne) No problem. People are more important than ideas (that's my idea!) I will pray. I hope someone takes you up on your offer to talk.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/29/2004 12:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear 1way,
I have heard it said that "If you wish to know the way, inquire of those who have traveled it." Dwayne, your chosen path is a beautiful one from my perspective...that in all these things you are richly blessed of the Lord, amen. | | Back to Top | | |
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