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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/18/2004 2:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is for anyone who wants to engage me as I think out loud. Do you believe that part of the Christian walk of love is to hold to ones own beliefs and views while allowing others to differ in the name of Christianity? What I have experienced in my time on this board has been that people can get very opinionated and passionate about their beliefs to the extent of excluding or injuring anyone who doesn't believe the same way. I have seen this while discussing such topics as homosexuality, abortion, open theism, God's will.... The reason I ask is because disagreeing on such intense and pertinent topics can result in wounds. Is it healthy to hold so strongly to one's own views that the end justifies the means?
I am beginning to embrace the philosophy of holding firmly to my own beliefs and convictions while allowing others to differ. I am beginning to believe Christ desires for us to be inclusive with all, even those who believe differently. Perhaps this is what it means to lead by example. We live out our convictions and faith in action more than word. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/18/2004 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Consider these factors:
1. some people are more secure, some more insecure than others
2. some people have "thicker skin", some have "thinner skin" than others
3. some people are more emotionally attached, some less emotionally attached to their beliefs
4. some people think they're defending God against heretics
5. some people have better arguments than others
6. some people grew up as hothouse flowers in overly "nuturing" environments, some people grew up in more "demanding" environments
7. some people are more sensitive, some people are less sensitive than others
8. some people are male, some people are female
9. some people take things more personally than others
10. some people are more easily "offended" than others
11. "some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers" 
12. some people have learned to perform their duties under hostile conditions, some have never had to perform under hostile conditions
13. some people relish the battle, some would rather teach the world to sing in perfect harmony
"It takes a big man to cry, and an even bigger man to laugh at that man."
-- Jack Handey
It's not obvious to me how anyone is being "excluded" here except the ax-grinder who keeps getting banned.
What's that supposed to mean!?!?! 
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/18/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tiggers
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 6/18/2004 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/18/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/18/2004 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
What's that supposed to mean!?!?!
Mom! John hollared at me again... 
Johnny, leave him alone! You're "scaring" him.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/18/2004 1:31 PM (GMT -6) | | You guys are so funny at times
Excluded -- to bar from participation, consideration, or inclusion
Laika, sometimes I believe we ALL have our ideas and beliefs so tightly embraced that we don't hear the other person nor give their ideas CONSIDERATION. This is what I meant by exclusion. I think we all can be guilty of excluding that for which doesn't fit within our belief grid. I have been wondering if this is the best way to live out the Christian walk.
As far as being hurt... I was thinking of all the times people have had blackeyes on here. I recall TGB writing that he believes some people left the board due to a particular thread (don't recall which one)
I am just thinking.  Thanks for all who have responded. Why did you slap me Laika? OUCH! | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 6/18/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | | [quoteI am beginning to embrace the philosophy of holding firmly to my own beliefs and convictions while allowing others to differ. I am beginning to believe Christ desires for us to be inclusive with all, even those who believe differently. Perhaps this is what it means to lead by example. We live out our convictions and faith in action more than word.
Was wondering if you could be more specific here. Are you specifically talking about "believers" and not pagans? Jesus was not inclusive. Jesus was exclusive, i.e. john 14:6. The Gospel is not inclusive, i.e. "you must be born again".
<><
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/18/2004 10:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
This is for anyone who wants to engage me as I think out loud. Do you believe that part of the Christian walk of love is to hold to ones own beliefs and views while allowing others to differ in the name of Christianity? What I have experienced in my time on this board has been that people can get very opinionated and passionate about their beliefs to the extent of excluding or injuring anyone who doesn't believe the same way. I have seen this while discussing such topics as homosexuality, abortion, open theism, God's will.... The reason I ask is because disagreeing on such intense and pertinent topics can result in wounds. Is it healthy to hold so strongly to one's own views that the end justifies the means?
I am beginning to embrace the philosophy of holding firmly to my own beliefs and convictions while allowing others to differ. I am beginning to believe Christ desires for us to be inclusive with all, even those who believe differently. Perhaps this is what it means to lead by example. We live out our convictions and faith in action more than word.
Quest,
Good question. I had to "lay down my theology" in my own home, as my initial zeal in expressing it (in a nice way), caused such concern, even anger. I was labelled "wacked" with my newfound view of God (Open View). It was then that I decided that loving was more important than being right. Now I share what I believe more by how I live. People can see the difference that it makes, and I let THEM ask ME questions. Then I answer carefully.
I do not believe that being right is as important as loving. You can have all the right theology, but as Paul says, without love you are a clanging cymbal.
I'm learning to "take the high road." It is a choice. That doesn't mean that I don't keep learning and applying what I learn. That is why I am so thankful for this board. There is literally only one other person that holds to this view here.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/19/2004 6:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I am beginning to embrace the philosophy of holding firmly to my own beliefs and convictions while allowing others to differ. I am beginning to believe Christ desires for us to be inclusive with all, even those who believe differently. Perhaps this is what it means to lead by example. We live out our convictions and faith in action more than word.
Paul told Timothy:
2 Tim. 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
You cannot help it if people do not like to hear what you have to say. Truly you are right in saying you must lead by example. However that example is to be not only in "deed" but in "truth" and in the words that you speak according to the truth of sound doctrine.
Christ did not lead just by example. Had he just gone around and did what he did without saying a word, they never would have crucified him. It was his TEACHING that caused division. Jesus made it clear that to deny him was not just in one's behavior but in denying to speak his words.
Mat. 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
They weren't going to do this because these guys were "good examples", they were going to do it because of the DOCTRINE THE SPOKE.
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
THINK NOT that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
You stated: I am beginning to embrace the philosophy of holding firmly to my own beliefs and convictions while allowing others to differ. I am beginning to believe Christ desires for us to be inclusive with all, even those who believe differently. Perhaps this is what it means to lead by example. We live out our convictions and faith in action more than word.
To do as you are saying here would lead you to thing exactly what Christ said NOT TO THINK. This teaching is pushed on us by those who do not want to hear anything that contradicts what they believe. More over they especially do not want anyone else to hear the truth and not follow them in their ecumenical stance. And they push it on us, claiming that if we disagree in WORDS that we are being unloving and offensive.
You state that you are beginning to "accept the PHILOSOPHY"....etc.
Col. 2:8 BEWARE lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY, after the TRADITIONS OF MEN, after the rudiments of the world and NOT after Christ.
THEIR PHILOSOPHY that they are trying to pawn off on all of us and make us feel GUILTY for speaking what we believe and not "accepting" their doctrines, is totally contrary and opposed to what Christ spoke. For this PHILOSOPHY is ECUMENICALISM.
People just naturally get offended when you do not agree with them. And if you speak the Word as you believe it to be stating, and if you believe it to be stating that what they are teaching is false, they get offended. Why do they get offended? Because EVERYONE knows what teaching FALSE doctrine implies and no one likes to think that they could go to hell or be severly judged just for what they believe and speak. But at least of you speak they have the opportunity to considder what you say even if they do not like it. And maybe down the road they will change their minds since we only plant and water but GOD GIVES THE INCREASE.
To deny to speak and just accept is to deny Christ. Just as to speak and not do is to be a hyporcrite. Hence we lead not only by "example" in the manner in which we live our lives, but we lead also IN WORD.
Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
I guess you have to descide if you are going to follow the Lord or if you are going to follow the philosophy of those who espouse peace and unity REAGARDLESS of doctrine. That philosophy is contrary to all scripture and contrary to the very example Christ gave us to follow. I hope that you will reconsidder your position, for it "sounds" good, but it is meant to lead us away from speaking the truth.
Christ is a ROCK of OFFENCE, to take away that "offense" by not speaking what you believe (EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG) would be to deny him regardless of weather what you believe is right on or not. At least if you speak up, you are taking a STAND one way or the other. Besides IF I am wrong I certainly would rather have someone debate me on the issue than to just let me go my merry way with out saying a thing. To know and not speak is to have THEIR BLOOD on your hands. Paul stated that he was FREE FROM THE BLOOD OF ALL MEN, BECAUSE he had not shunned to declair unto them ALL THE COUNCIL of GOD.
Those who know the truth or even think they know it, by getting wrapped up in not speaking in the name of FALSE LOVE will have the blood of those whom they join with on their hands.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/19/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Disclaimer: In recognition of the limitations of my TIMS knowledge and of the tentative nature of my TIMS probable beliefs and opinions; such ought to lead me TIM to a tolerance of those people holding beliefs different from mine. Instead of attacking the beliefs of others, I TIMshould strive to find better grounds for my own. And when I encounter conflicting testimonies, e.g. historians, I TIM can only weigh all sides and form a belief, conjecture, guess, doubt, or disbelief, as the case seems to warrant.
Yes TIM, YOU can do that if that is what YOU wish to do, if YOU are that UNSURE of what YOU believe. If you lack commitment and conviction and choose to keep quiet about it, then by all means do so.
However neither Jesus nor none of the apostles choose to do such. And on a regular basis attacked the "beliefs" of others. Unfortunately that is a FACT according to what is written in the Bible. The only thing that makes it "tentative" is IF the Bible is actually true and if they ever existed at all.
However these others did not attack their beliefs in turn they attacked THEM both personally and physically.
Those who hold the falsest of teachings and doctrine are those who espouse and promote such "tollerance" of not "attacking BELIEFS", for they do not want anyone to hear that maybe their "beliefs and opinioins" are false and thus choose NOT to follow such. They want to be able to flap their gums unceasingly without CHALLENGE, so they have come up with this "philosophy" that you should not question those beliefs. This whole line of thought follows religion as dose "political correctness" follow Polotics.
Thank God that someone attacked the personal beleif of others that the world was FLAT. I do believe that the world is actually round and a ball is somewhat of a FACT. Just as what the Bible says, is what the bible says regardless of weather or not one believes it. As to our individual interpretations and opinions of that Bible, we have EVERY RIGHT to debate and disagree on any level, as long as we continue to allow others to keep those beliefs without forcing them physically to believe what we think is right.
It's too bad that some are so over sensitive that they cannot take having what their teachings questioned.
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/20/2004 3:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Was wondering if you could be more specific here. Are you specifically talking about "believers" and not pagans? Jesus was not inclusive. Jesus was exclusive, i.e. john 14:6. The Gospel is not inclusive, i.e. "you must be born again".
<><
Jim
Jim, I will be more specific as I respond to a few other posts. Please, let me know if my answer here is more specific for you. I must start by saying that I believe the way we interact with believers will be a bit different from the way we interact with non-believers -- as a body of believers we are to speak truth in love. We are to encourage one another in the Lord....
I must say that what Larris posted was very convincing and will get me to think deeper. As I stated I am thinking out loud and appreciate all of the responses!
I appreciate Tim's disclaimer: "In recognition of the limitations of my knowledge and of the tentative nature of my probable beliefs and opinions; such ought to lead me to a tolerance of those people holding beliefs different from mine. Instead of attacking the beliefs of others, I should strive to find better grounds for my own. And when I encounter conflicting testimonies, e.g. historians, I can only weigh all sides and form a belief, conjecture, guess, doubt, or disbelief, as the case seems to warrant."
Jo-Anne, I agree with your post very much. I believe we are to love above all else hence this is what led me to start this thread. I have been thinking a bit about how we can get so wrapped up in our world of convictions and beliefs to the point of exclusion.
Loving people is a tough job. I wrote on another thread how if a person is able to remain marriage until "death do us part" they deserve admittance into heaven automatically. I was of course being light-hearted in that comment but there is truth there too. I believe marriage and ALL relationships take work and can be extremely difficult at times. I believe we all have a need to be "right" and to be respected. I am questioning if we can respect rights to differ while holding to the teachings of the bible?
I wonder if the war we are currently in could be won if we spent more energy battling on the spiritual level? Could God intervene if we agreed in prayer and prayed continually that the Holy Spirit would move in the hearts of ALL that are involved? I agree that the more we try to be over others, the more we drive them apart from us. In just the same way the more we "preach" our Christian convictions the more we drive those who differ away. I find that a division is being created within America between the "liberals" and the "conservatives" and I am wondering if the conservatives are losing the battle through trying to shove beliefs and convictions down people who differ? I am beginning to believe that if we want to make an impact and spread God's truth we need to do so FIRST in action.
Jim, did that answer your question?
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/20/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Sitting here reading these responses it came to my attention how we are using the word "attack", as in "attacking someone’s beliefs".
In the sense that I take it from others besides those here that I have heard this from, it is in the sense of "just stating what you believe". And it's no different in the religious arena than it is in the political arena, as regards what is called "political correctness".
We see how the un-written LAW of politically correct speech, is over-riding into the area of our religious freedom and freedom of speech.
For instance it is now becoming politically incorrect to disagree with homosexuality, even to the point that to speak the Word of God to a homosexual it’s considered "hate" speech and hence to be a "hate crime". Even though we have no actual “hate crime” law at this time, however this is the “belief” of some. How about attacking that belief?
Satan is strongly moving in the political arena to make it illegal to speak God's words, in any way that would reprove someone of the sin they are in. When it comes to "attacking" people’s beliefs, there is a WIDE range of "belief". For instance what if someone believes it's OK to worship Satan and do human sacrifice? Should not that belief be attacked? OR let's make it simple, how about just simple adultery? There are many people who practice spouse swapping and believe it's OK. So how about that “belief”?
They say that politics and religion make strange bedfellows. However I have come to the conclusion that is absolutely not true. For I have noticed a trend that ideologically politics follows where religion leads. Ever since the Churches have gotten together on the whole ecumenical "tolerance" thing, politics has followed. And where as Christians are being led not to disagree with one another, or if they do, to keep their mouths shut in the name of UNITY, Politics has come up with politically correct speech, which tries to enforce the same ideal on people. “WATCH OUT FOR WHAT YOU SAY”, because the politically correct police (i.e. the media and the liberals) will get you for it.
HOWEVER I have noticed that the so-called politically correct speech is ONE SIDED. In that those who espouse it can SAY ANYTHING THEY WANT TO, but if the other side says anything whatsoever they get raked over the coals for it.
We are not supposed to question any of their doctrines, yet they question our right to question their doctrines, which could in essence be our belief. Therefore they are trying to keep others from actually having their own beliefs.
It stands to reason then that if their belief is that you should not attack or question anyone’s belief, then they should not question me as to my belief that I have the DUTY to question their beliefs.
It makes perfect sense to me. 
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Cliffy
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 6/21/2004 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Folks,
I've been lurking around this thread for quite some time, and found it most thought-provoking. I do apologize if this post will be a bit off-topic.
Call me crazy, but I don't think judgement and tolerance are that dissimilar. And now I have to unpack it. Good luck eh? 
Sure, in strict definition and theory, they are as close to opposite as one can get. But considering the way both are used, I think they are just two sides of the same coin called "communication."
Consider this: Let's say an athiest and a fundamentalist Christian are having a debate. Now in order for them to communicate at all, they must have many presupposed things in common. FOr example: they both wish to advance their ideas, they both believe the other is wrong on certian major things, and they must acknowledge (tolerate) the other's claims existence. Of course, the tolerance is for the debate's posterity. If they couldn't tolerate each other for a minute, there would be no debate. Tolerance and judgement both assume and admit that there are differences between the said parties, and both if used rightly, have in mind to learn and grow from the exchange. If you only have judgement, or only have tolerance, NOTHING IS GAINED. Communication about ideas and growing from them would be impossible without both of them.
Personally, our tolerance pales in comparision with God's. God has tolerated this sin-sick world for thousands of years of human history. The difference between our tolerance and judgement and His tolerance and judgement, is simply he is doing it ALL for our sake. That's grace, to me at least. John 3:16 says it all. But he won't tolerate it forever. Because if He did, all the communication between people who seek truth would be for naught. And there's no glory for ANYONE in that, much less God.
Just my two cents. The preceedign probably made no sense, but oh well. I've enjoyed the discussion so far.
Cliffy
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/21/2004 12:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
HOWEVER I have noticed that the so-called politically correct speech is ONE SIDED. In that those who espouse it can SAY ANYTHING THEY WANT TO, but if the other side says anything whatsoever they get raked over the coals for it.
We are not supposed to question any of their doctrines, yet they question our right to question their doctrines, which could in essence be our belief. Therefore they are trying to keep others from actually having their own beliefs.
It stands to reason then that if their belief is that you should not attack or question anyone’s belief, then they should not question me as to my belief that I have the DUTY to question their beliefs.
It makes perfect sense to me.
It makes perfect sense to me too. We must live out what we speak to be congruent. Please, larris, continue on in your speaking your mind....
Cliffyquote:
Tolerance and judgement both assume and admit that there are differences between the said parties, and both if used rightly, have in mind to learn and grow from the exchange.
Beautifully put! I think we need to have the discernment that Laika suggested in place of the judgment. We can discern within our spirit whether something is in line with our understanding of the bible and of Jesus message.
Judgement is ugly. I was to dinner last night with my family. I noticed a gay couple with their two children sitting in a table next to ours. The way I was positioned at our table I also noticed a woman who continued to stare (not in a kind way) at this family sitting next to us. I had this anger within myself at what this lady was doing to these people - it almost appeared to be a hate stare. I thought of the children at that table and how much they must have to tolerate from people such as this woman. I played out in my mind what Jesus would do if he were physically present in the restaurant and what he would say...
Jesus tolerates and accepts us right where we are at and that is what we are to do for one another. Instead of allowing the ugliness of judgmentalism to enter into conversations and encounters, we are called to LOVE and accept people right where they are at. | | Back to Top | | |
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Cliffy
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 6/21/2004 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy
Hey Folks,
I've been lurking around this thread for quite some time, and found it most thought-provoking. I do apologize if this post will be a bit off-topic.
Call me crazy, but I don't think judgement and tolerance are that dissimilar.
Yer crazy!!!!!
Sorry, you asked for it.
I agree, I think most mean "discernment" when they say "judgment".
Yep crazier than a loon. I suppose it all depends on one's perspective. :)
Cliffy
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