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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2004 2:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | 
Either caugh up a hair ball, or tell me:
Whatcha been read'n? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2004 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | www.ccel.org/m/murray/index.html
quote:
Works by Andrew Murray (1828-1917)
...........................
Deeper Christian Life
True Vine: Meditations for a Month on John 15:1-16
New Life: Words of God for Young Disciples
Lord's Table
School of Obedience
Two Covenants
With Christ in the School of Prayer
Description: Thoughts on our training for the ministry of intercession
Absolute Surrender
Working For God! (Author)
Description: A sequel to Waiting on God!
Search works of Andrew Murray on the CCEL:
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/3/2004 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Good Ideas From Questionable Christians and Outright Pagans by Michael Wilkens...excellant...
Debating Calvinism by Hunt and White...two guys who can't stand each other and it shows...
Rumors of Another World Yancey, so-so, Yancy is in a major rut...
Power of Resilence excellant book on developing characteristics in ones life to be a strong human being
Storms of Providence by Robinson...VERY wrong about this one. Turned out to be a very good survey of the three main views of providence (almost worth $40 dollars, almost I say)
What is Soren's easiest book to read? I am going to start fear and trembling. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2004 6:05 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2004 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | You know the old expression: "So many books; so little time?"
.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/6/2004 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
Anyway, Prince did repent of the shepherding extremes and renounced them. He seperated himself from the rest of the group due to his disagreement with them. Mumford also later publically repented of his part in that movement. Not sure about the rest.
M6y church never let itself get wrapped up in all that. The elders flew down south to Tulsa for the meeting when all that seemed to his the fan big-time (about '74?)
Glad to be rid of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/7/2004 4:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/7/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika
It's hard for major companies and government agencies to leave the clutches of the MS giant. The folks I work for used to at least use WordPerfect Office rather than MS Office but they still did this on a Windows NT workstation platform (but at the time we were using SCO Unix. I WAS a Unix Administrator). Now we have switched to using NT and 2000 servers and 2000 workstation, Exchange as our e-mail, and we are now pretty much using MS Office. And for the price of all of this I spend a lot of my time applying PATCHES, fighting worms and viruses, and all the other wonderful benefits that comes with the security holes of an MS operating system. Unix could be a tough system to administer, but at least it was pretty much secure.
I had heard about Sun's little battle attempts to destroy Microsoft, beginning with their first attempts to make Star Office free (the 5.0 version). I used Star Office 5.0 as my office suite at home for a couple of years until recently buying a Dell with .... ACK! XP! (and I had the nerve to talk bad about my employers). It came with WordPerfect but I decided that I might go ahead and install Open Office on it. I might buy the Star Office 7.1 later. No expensive MS Office for me.
Anyway, the Sun Java Destop looks like one of the nicer alternatives to Windows XP, however, I wonder why those chose to use GNOME rather than KDE. I think KDE is much more attractive personally.
Do you have any thoughts on other Linux distributions such as LindowsOS and Lycoris?
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/7/2004 6:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I work with a fellow who had his leg lengthened, in his grandfathers church, by a traveling evangelist in the 70's. However this is the first time I ever heard of this being a common thing that was going on back then.
As for myself, in 91, was when I started reading Princes books et. and began attending an AOG church. Not as new Christian, but as a drop out from another ministry. Durring that time a friend of mine and myself attended a meeting with another traveling evangelist at this Church, where he said that if you smoked it was because you had a devil spirit of "smoking". Well both of us smoked.
Anyway there was a woman who went to that Church who said she could cast the "smoking demon" out of anyone. So we went over to her house and she prayed for us, and "rebuked" the demon that was supposedly in us. Of course neither one of us felt a thing, but we left believing that we were healed.
Now let's see, we had a last ciggerette just before we went to her house and we were only there about 15 minutes. And when we left we didn't feel like smoking at all. Then we went to lunch and after lunch we both felt like having a smoke. BUT neither one of us would tell the other one, because each of us didn't want the other one to think they were the one that was still "possessed". Consiquently we both had to part company, begging off with some "lying" excuse of something important we forgot we had to do, so that we could run have a smoke in secret, hiding the great lack of faith that each one of us thought we then had.
Well, both I and my friend are older and wiser, (at least in that area) today. People don't smoke because they are possessed, they smoke because they skipped school in 6th grade and learned to do it with their partners in truancy, and just plain got addicted physically and mentally, (what....? Isn't that how everyone starts smoking?)
However if you go to church long enough as you can see by the story above, you will get a "lying spirit". I wonder how many people over the years have had demons "rebuked", or who have been prayed for, for healing who FAKED IT, because they didn't want someone to think they were still possessed or had no faith?
I went through a spree if reading everyone and their dogs books in the early 90's. I did the whole Derick Prince deliverance gig, and the whole family curse thing. And what I found out about it all, was that it led you to think you were really delivered when you were "NOT". All of the books were mostly what I would call a "quick fix", who's method's did not last. But I will tell you what dose last and what dose bring true deliverance, "ACTING ON THE REAL WORD OF GOD".
After I got away from all the charades of the Church, I literally read the Word of God, and literally repented of my sins, that the Church had taught me didn't really matter since I was "SAVED"....NO MATTER WHAT. And having the motivation of the truth, that "hell" was still available to me, gave me the strength to overcome sin, and then one night literally, while at home in my own house have a real demon manifest itself, and get it screamingly told by me to get out and never come back. Funny I thought Christians could not be possessed, and yet I had been in the Church and all it's doctrines for 11 years and had at least one REAL demon all that time.
Having read extensivly, and having had the up until the last 2 years 24 houyrs a day to do so, I have learned much from books in general. However I have found the greatest deliverance in reading the Bible with the purpose of endeavoring to DO what it says to DO. When I read John 8:31, "If you continue in MY WORD, then you will be my disciple in deed, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." Then I endeavored to DO this. And what I realized after having been a committed Christian for over 10 years and having read everyone elses books about his Word, was that, "I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW VERY MUCH OF WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID TO DO."
And then I started seeing that they never REALLY taught it in Church, just read around it. Go ahead, ask 10 christians to tell you word for word a minimum of 10 things Jesus said you should DO. For that matter sit down now and ask yourself to quote 10 literal things that Jesus said you should do.
Didn't he say, "You are my friend if you DO whatsoever I command you"? Didn't he say, "If you love me keep my commandments"? Didn't he say, "He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me, and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him" And how about, "He that loves me not keeps not my sayings,"? And yet just how many of the actual "sayings" do you ever really hear taught by ANYONE.
I have read whole, entire theological works that never had one saying or commandment of ANYTHING Jesus actually said you should DO! Why is that? Could it be that the Church has many man made doctrines that actually contradict what Jesus said you should do? For instance let's just take the word "DO". Now if you "DO" something, it means that you have to move in some manner, now moving in some manner might involve "WORK", and God forbid that's a FOUR LETTER WORD to the Church today, who can only quote a partial verses of Paul, by screaming "NOT OF WORKS", "NOT OF WORKS".
And here's a good one. "Blessed are those who REMEMBER his commandments to DO THEM. But if you are NEVER actually taught them, then you won't remember them, to do them, when the situation arises, and hence won't really be blessed.
Funny how the Church loves to quote, "IF YOU SHALL ASK ANYTHING IN MY NAME I WILL DO IT." And how they love to leave out the very next sentence which says, "IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." Showing that the two are inseperably linked, and that to get the one you have to DO the other.
I am convinced after so long a time now, that the reason you do not see "the same works", let alone "the greater works" than he, is because, all of those statements were made within the clear context of "If you love me keep my commmandments," and the Chruch dose not teach his commmandments. And by the time we get persuaded and enduced into studying all the different "theologies", we have never actually read his words. We have been duped into a state of "EVER LEARNING AND NEVER ABLE TO COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH". Otherwise known as the Hermeneutical Circle. And since it's the "truth" that only set's men free, then we see none of the great miraculous works. I believe that most of the so called healings are nothing more than parlor tricks, to make people think they know the Lord.
If you want healing, or your heart is to be a healer, then study His Words, and do them, for didn't he say "If you abide in my and my WORDS abide in you, then you shall ask WHAT YOU WILL and it shall be done unto you." I'll tell you, I don't think he gives that kind of power just because we want it, wish for it or pray for it. He only gave that kind of power to his "disciples". So anyone that goes around not teaching his words and commandments line for line, doing parlor tricks, is manifesting that power from another source. After all it's pretty much the devil that oppresses, so all the devil has to do is just quit oppressing someone in a certain area and WOW it seems like a healing. Demons have a will of their own and an agenda. That agenda being to do anything to keep us from actually learning his Word and DOING it, and especially teaching it to others
I will leave you with what the Lord said would increase our faith, which shows what true "faith" was according to the way he understood and defined it, NOT the way the Chruch defines it.
Luke 17:5
And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea, and it should obey you. BUT which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, God and sit down to meant? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready werewith I may sup, and gird thyself and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken, and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Dose he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow (THINK)not.
SO LIKE WISE YOU, WHEN YOU SHALL HAVE DONE ALL THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE COMMANDED YOU, say We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
The ultiamte moral, being that Jesus is not the one the increases your faith, YOU ARE! And how do you increase your faith? "BY DOING ALL HE COMMANDED YOU TO DO." Believe me, he's watching everything we do, and waiting on the edge of his seat, for just one or two people on the whole face of the earth to get this simple if not easy applicable concept, to what faith really is. No wonder he said, "Nevertheless, when the son of man comes shall he find faith on the earth"? I mean is he going to really find anyone who glombed onto the concept that faith is DOING his commandments? But how can you do all he commanded you to do, if you can not even write out lickity split just 10 things he actually commanded you to do? Go ahead try it I dare you. For it is sure that if you cannot snap them out of your mouth, bam, bam, bam one right after the other, that when the time comes in your daily life to apply them, you will not remember them to do them.
The Lord is so looking for those who have his sayings so down in their heads, that they do them when the situations arise, faster than they can say them. That is when you know that you are truly walking IN him and he is being manifested "through" you. And after you get into the practice of manifesting him, via his commandments though you, is when you are promised that he will literally manifest himself TO you. Because by then he can trust you. You know trust is a two way street.
"He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me, and he that loves me shall be loved of my father, and I will love him AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TOHIM."
Do you know what that means? This is in the context of telling his deciples that the time was coming when the world would see him no more, but THEY would see him. Even after the accention, they litereally SAW him. As they kept his commandments he hopped on down and visited them on occasion IN THE FLESH, not a spirit, not "spiritually", but literally. They choose by their own wills to understand what he said and do it, and so taking it upon themselves to manifest his life THOUGH their actions and deeds. And he seeing that they continued with him, in keeping what he said to DO, then literally manifested himself to them in person. Now I would say that would be an admireable goal to have in life. That at least once before you died, you were going to give all to follow him, and get to the point where he could pay you a physical, personal visit.
However beware, because a lot of preachers have said Jesus visited them in their hotel rooms and the shekana glory shone about, and they just said "hey Jesus". Yet none of them teach his commandments, and from knowing the word, the last thing any of they disciples of the Lord did when Jesus manifested his glory was say "hey Jesus". You don't seek to SEE Jesus, you seek to do what he said to do. Then at some point after that he promises he will manifest himself to you. Those who seek to just see Jesus and have a spiritual experience, usually get one in the form of an identity theft devil with the name of Jesus.
Now I will admit that I have never literally seen the Lord. No he has never come and visited me in person. But then I am slow at keeping his commandments, and continually fall. I as yet have not been fully successful like those to whom John spoke in his first epistle, who had KEPT the word, and overcome the wicked one.
I am still WORKING to keep more of his commandments on a daily basis. I still get mad and sware on a daily basis and forget to love my enemies, something which I believe he mentioned in one of his FIRST sermons on some mountain somewhere. So I am still challenged at even doing the "basics". However there are three areas that I have overcome in, 1. Fornication (literal), 2. Being filled with wine to excess. and 3. THEOLOGY, in that I finally figgured out that by the time I get done reading everything they say about him and about his Word, that I never actually read or did his Word.
WORKing (pardon my swearing, that 4 letter word) at being in the love of Christ, by remembering his commandments to do them....
larris | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/7/2004 11:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But how can you do all he commanded you to do, if you can not even write out lickity split just 10 things he actually commanded you to do?
Larris, this makes complete sense. I find it so amazing how the whole point of Jesus' commands for us can be forgot in the midst of living out theology. If we lived with the love that he taught there would not be so much division within the body. Thanks for sharing. | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/8/2004 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Larris
Excellent post.
One of the funny things I have found out in theological circles on why much of what Jesus said is disregarded is due to some DISPENSATIONAL beliefs. Some actually believe that the EPISTLES, particularly, Paul's epistles, are the only things relevent for the Christians today. Kind of close to the error of MARCION (some guy back in the early church who felt that the Old Testament and the gospels should be removed from the Canon of Scripture and only the epistles should be there).
I am NOT attacking dispensationalism as a whole, but the EXTREME VERSION has influenced some to make Jesus' words unapplicable to Christians today and that the gospels are primarily for historical value. Yet, Paul did say that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and is profitable for rebuke, correction and instruction in righteousness (see 2 Tim. 3:16).
The other thing mentioned in your post is how we can get caught up in reading books about God and about the Bible but neglect the Bible itself. I have a tendency to fall into that trap because I am an avid book reader. I love reading books by men of God and love learning new things but I recognize the need for BALANCE. Never should let books take priority over the reading and study of the Word. I have found that each time I go to the Word itself I get more nourishment than I would just reading a book alone and then I ask myself, "How did I get caught up in neglecting THE book?"
Thankfully early in my Christian walk and my induction into the Charismatic Movement I had a good pastor who, though strongly believed in the ministry of casting out devils and healing the sick, also disputed the "demons under every rock and tree" teaching. My mind was already fortressed when I was introduced to some of the deliverance stuff.
I also remember back in the 80s watching a video tape series on spiritual warfare from a YWAM teacher named Dean Sherman who warned against those extremes. I like a lot of the writings and teachings by Derek Prince and would recommend many of his books, but his teachings on deliverance are NOT one of them.
Anyway, good post. Enjoyed reading it and thought I'd add my two and a half cents. 
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/9/2004 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | I sure thank you for all of your kind and gracious (and humorous) responses. Troy you said some things that really go hand in hand with what I have learned and experienced in my own life. Your “two and a half cents” as you called it, is actually “priceless”, and I would really like to comment on what you said, because EVERYTHING just ran so true and really struck a chord in me.
I have found that each time I go to the Word itself I get more nourishment than I would just reading a book alone and then I ask myself, "How did I get caught up in neglecting THE book?"
Yes this has and still happens to me time and time again. It’s as if everything is life is directed towards distracting me. Yet I also find that even when I am totally engrossed in the study of God’s word, I can even get continually distracted from studying what is most beneficial, and get off into things that do not profit me. So you see, you can still be studying the scriptures and still get led away from Christ, even in that endeavor. This of course is common place if you are indoctrinated into the dispensationalism you spoke of.
I find I have to keep bringing myself back to Christ. That is back to his teachings and the study of his life, and as I do that all other things in the Word open up to me. I was thoroughly indoctrinated into the very dispensational theology you spoke of, and broke away from it about 11 years ago. Since then the Word has really come alive for me, since Christ has in truth become such a great part of my life.
You said something I found so very true, when you said: One of the funny things I have found out in theological circles on why much of what Jesus said is disregarded is due to some DISPENSATIONAL beliefs. Some actually believe that the EPISTLES, particularly, Paul's epistles, are the only things relevant for the Christians today.
That is exactly what I was originally taught, however dispensationalism goes even further in it’s teachings, to actually even cut out much of what Paul said. This is done by teaching, that besides the Word being divided up into dispensations, with only that part of it being applied and written TO YOU, that was written after Acts, but it is also divided up into being written to one our of three groups, which are “Jew, Gentile or The Church of God.”
Therefore also anything that Paul said, that dose not agree with the pre-fabricated doctrines within dispensationalism, also gets relegated to “NOT BEING WRITTEN TO YOU”. I have seen them stop in mid sentence in a verse in the Word, because the rest of the sentence was actually applied to the Jews or the Gentiles and not to YOU, who are a member of the Church of grace. ESPECIALLY anything concerning “JUDGMENT”.
Really the system is designed so that ANYTHING you don’t like, don’t want to do, or don’t want to believe, can be CUT OUT and relegated to NOT BEING WRITTEN TO YOU! Now isn’t that CONVENIENT! That false doctrine kept me in sin and in bondage for the first 11 years of my Christian life. But through God’s grace and much study I was able to see the truth and break away from it.
I went on a hunt, to find out just where all these ideas originated from, and in the end guess where I wound up? I wound up in Plato’s Republic, where the word “theology” was coined by Plato for the FIRST time.
Now I had NO DESIRE to ever study philosophy. But one day I was reading the Word, with the attitude of DOING what it said, and I come across this verse.
Col. 2:8 BEWARE, lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.
So I figure, that if I’m going to BEWARE of philosophy I better understand a little about it, so I’ll recognize it, if it comes to dupe me and lead me away from Christ. Now I don’t want to study philosophy, I just want to know the basics of what it is and where it originated. And to my shock, I find that I have been applying philosophy to my study of the Word, ever since I’ve been a Christian, because originally what we call “theology” was the major part of Greek Philosophy.
An interesting book to read is Bertrand Russell's, The Wisdom of the West, where you see clearly (even has lots of great pictures), how the Church and all those guys in black, just adopted Greek philosophical forms of interpretation and applied them to the scriptures.
Now I’m no spiritual Einstein, but to me, there just seems to be something just a teensy weensy bit WRONG, with naming how we interpret the Word of God, after a GREEK GOD, by the name of “HERMES”, as in “hermeneutics”. Especially when Paul stated that those Greek gods were really devils, and that the NT also speaks of men taking heed to “doctrines of devils”, and turning their ears away from the truth. But of course only in the higher circles of learning, do they actually admit, their theology comes from paganism, and to the basic Christian, or even seminary goer, it’s all presented in a totally Biblical format.
Another interesting thing I found, is that all the while Christians were either adopting Greek philosophical interpretations and applying them to the scriptures, the Greek philosophers and pagans themselves were adopting the teachings of Jesus and adding them to their philosophy. Remember “Mars Hill”, where all the philosophers, were just there to hear some NEW THING. Well when the teachings of Jesus came along that was one of those NEW THINGS, and they just added it to their every growing bank of beliefs. However giving it a slightly different understanding according to every other whacked out thing they thought. It got to the point where the pagan philosophers actually accused the Christians of corrupting the teachings of Jesus.
You can pretty much bet that they aren’t going to want to get rid of this stuff today, because you know it’s BIG BUSINESS. I mean you got degrees and jobs all based on paganism, with Christian titles, so regardless of the truth, they have to keep promoting it.
Well, sorry don’t want to get to long winded here. Thanks again for your response.
God bless,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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