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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/18/2004 8:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Does it bother anyone that God just didn't come out and say, this is what I am? Instead just hints and stuff? Not I am Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but just pieces and parts that we fit together. SO much speculation and debate... | | Back to Top | | |
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Calvin_and_Hops
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 4/19/2004 2:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Good question. I do think so, at least.
You seem to read a lot. Want a book? The Spirit of Truth, vol. I: "The Origins of Johannine Pneumatology", (Crestwood, NY: SVS Press, 1991).
All three, "God" and the "word" and the "spirit" are common language found throughout the region of the Bible, from way, way back. But they are not always conceived in all those cultures and religions as being personal, or of the same God. (Remember that the sky-god religions appeal to lower gods because they fear that the creator-god is too high and does not care about them.
Realizing THAT, how--in hindsight--did YHWH "teach" us humans (even Swedes) through a little rag-tag group of people?
Not until about Ezekiel (says Breck) is the Spirit presented as personally God. Early scripture passages match the culture around them. (Remember God even used animal sacrifice to teach--though at the start the ram substituted for Issac showed that it was no longer to be taken literally.) God seems (Breck developes) to have used both the Essenes and the Zoroaster religion to iron out possibiulities for talking about the Spirit and Word in ways that another religion -- that of God's people! -- could pick up those words and phrases, and say something new with them: "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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I think, feelinhole, friend, that the answer to your question is that even had God told his prophets to "say" what you asked about, no one would have understood. Going BACK through the OT we can pretty much find that God DID say so. But no one had the cultural ears to hear, or the mind to understand.
God patiently, patiently, patiently TAUGHT them, and leaded them, until the time was right.
The FINAL revelation was THIS:
""Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
" ... ""The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. "
===============================
quote:
secure.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=258
Spirit of Truth [PB-SPTRBR]
John Breck
Includes index.
Spirit of Truth is the first of a two-volume study of the origin and development of the teaching of the Holy Spirit as it appears in the Gospel and First Epistle of John.
Scholarly works on Johannine Pneumatology have tended to concentrate on the image of Spirit as Paraclete or Advocate, and have neglected the specific "hermeneutic" or teaching-interpreting role attributed to the Spirit throughout the New Testament and specifically in the thought of the fourth evangelist. The purpose of this study is to explore and explain how this hermeneutic function developed in Johannine thought and ecclesial experience, and to stress its vital implications for scriptural interpretation and preaching within our church community today.
The first volume reveals the influence of the Old Testament, Zoroastrianism and Qumran texts on the shaping of the figure of the Spirit in Israel's religious experience. It traces the origin of the image of Spirit of Truth through the Old Testament and intertestamental Judaism. Its dualistic aspect ("spirit of truth/spirit of deception," as in I John 4:6) is shown to be rooted in the Dead Sea Scrolls and, ultimately, in the ethical-eschatological dualism of the Iranian prophet Zarathustra. This book shows, finally, how Israel came to know the Spirit as a blessing, sanctifying, protecting and revealing divine presence.
ISBN 0-88141-081-0
6 x 9
188 pp
Price: US $11.95
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/19/2004 2:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
What bothers me worse is that I've never seen an attempt to explain the Trinity that wasn't mystical. I.e., the explanation always ends up requiring the mind to conceptualize what cannot be conceptualized. And I don't know what it means to say I believe something that I can't even conceptualize. Does anyone know of a non-mystical account of the Trinity that squares with the scriptures?
THIS: www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/19/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | It bothers me that God didn't come out and say a lot of things, not just about the "Trinity."
But we must remember: the Bible is God's word to us couched in and wrapped around the framework of relationship; between Him and us. The Bible is not a book of information. It simply is not a "manual" about anything except restoration of relationship. So, no, it isn't surprising that God didn't tell us about how He exists, other than to say I Am that I Am.
As regards the Trinity, well, one thing is clear. Three "persons" reveal themselves in Scripture as in relationship with each other yet as the One God. And even this information--something to really think about--is given to us in view of restoration of relationship, not just for the sake of God giving us an ontological lesson of His existence.
It would seem, therefore, that Scripture gives us the grounding for what we need to know about God, and this is sufficient to both come to know God and to draw close to Him.
For relationship with Him,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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bug
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 4/19/2004 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman, that is an ourstanding post. Thank you.
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/19/2004 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, thank you, bug! 
That makes my day!!!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/19/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Quote: Does it bother anyone that God just didn't come out and say, this is what I am? Instead just hints and stuff? Not I am Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but just pieces and parts that we fit together. SO much speculation and debate...
I had a some comments, but I really don't like where these posts wind up, especially if you question the concept a litte more than you did here. It has always bothered me, with how heated people get over the subject.
However I have found on just about every other subject I have thoroughly studies and researched that if a person has to fit pieces and parts together to make the Word seem to say something, it's usually because the Word is not actually saying that to begin with.
Larris
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/19/2004 3:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
I've never seen an attempt to explain the Trinity that wasn't mystical. I.e., the explanation always ends up requiring the mind to conceptualize what cannot be conceptualized. ...
quote:
"Thus it is said that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each divine with the same divinity, yet each in his own divine way. And as the uncreated divinity has three divine subjects, so each divine action has three divine actors; there are three divine aspects to every action of God, yet the action remains one and the same."
So, IN EXPERIENCE what does this look like?
quote:
- The Holy Trinity in Creation
God the Father created the world through the Son (Word) in the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is present in all that exists, making it to exist by the power of the Spirit. Thus, according to Orthodox doctrine, the universe itself is a revelation of God in the Word and the Spirit. The Word is in all that exists, causing it to be, and the Spirit is in all that exists as the power of its being and life.
- The Holy Trinity in Salvation
With man's failure to fulfill himself in his created uniqueness, God undertakes the special action of salvation. The Father sends forth His Son (Word) and His Spirit in yet another mission. The Word and the Spirit come to the Old Testament saints to make known the Father. The Word, as it were, incarnates himself in the Law (in Hebrew called the "words") which is inspired by the Spirit. The Spirit inspires the prophets to proclaim the Word of God. Thus, the Law and the Prophets are revelations of God in His Word and His Spirit. They are partial revelations, "shadows" (as the New Testament calls them), prefiguring the total revelation of the "fullness of time" and preparing its coming.
When the time is fulfilled and the world is made ready, the Word and the Spirit come once more -- no longer by their mere action and power, but now in their own persons, dwelling personally in the world.
The Word becomes flesh. The only-begotten Son is born as a man, Jesus of Nazareth. And the Spirit who is in him is given to all men to make them also sons of the Father in an eternal development of attaining His perfection by growing forever "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13).
Thus, in the New Testament we have the full epiphany of God, the full manifestation of the Holy Trinity: the Father through the Son in the Spirit to us; and we in the Spirit through the Son to the Father.
- The Holy Trinity in Christian Life
The Christian life is the life of God accomplished in men by the Spirit of Christ. Men can live as Christ has lived, doing the things that he did and becoming sons of God in Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus, once more, the Christian life is a Trinitarian life.
By the Holy Spirit given by God through Christ, men can share the life, the love, the truth, the freedom, the goodness, the holiness, the wisdom, the knowledge of God Himself. It is this conviction and experience which has caused the development in the Orthodox Church of the affirmation of the fact that the essence of Christianity is "the acquisition of the Holy Spirit" and the "deification" of man by the grace of God, the so-called theosis.
- The Holy Trinity in Eternal Life
In the eternal life of the Kingdom of God, the Holy Trinity will fill all creation: the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Every man enlightened by Christ in the Spirit will know the invisible Father. "And this is eternal life, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Such knowledge is possible only by the indwelling of the Spirit of God, "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:23; 2:22).
I think that when St. Gregory Nazianzum wrote that when he tried to "contemplate the three" he inevitabley found himself focused on the "one" and when pondering the "one" he found himself condisering the three. . .that his reflections were NOT abstract, were NOT "mysitcal" and were NOT "beyong conception." I really think he was taking baby-steps.
He and Basil did hot have to follow other proples terms and categories. The considered their experience as Pastors (Bishops) and what their faith-relationship was. And I think that I can identify with that.
When a child of God, "born again" considers God's salvation--that work of the whole Trinity--s/he quickly gives thanks for the Father's Love (John 3:16), Christ's sacrifice, and the Spirit's calling. But when that child of God ponders any of those three, s/he finds that s/he is illumined by one thing: God's Love.
THAT is what those Fathers of the Church are telling us.
The Trinity is something that is EXPERIENCED, not speculated about.
(That's what we can learn from the Eastern Orthodox tradition.) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/19/2004 3:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by echo
When a child of God, "born again" considers God's salvation--that work of the whole Trinity--s/he quickly gives thanks for the Father's Love (John 3:16), Christ's sacrifice, and the Spirit's calling. But when that child of God ponders any of those three, s/he finds that s/he is illumined by one thing: God's Love.
(Is this big and colorful--and short--enough for feelinhole to read?)
I think this is feelinhole's story too! "I love to tell the story of unseen things above, / Of Jesus and His glory, of Jesus and His love. / I love to tell the story, because I know ’tis true; / It satisfies my longings as nothing else can do. // I love to tell the story, ’twill be my theme in glory, / tell the old, old story of Jesus and His love." - Arabella Katherine Hankey, 1866 | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/19/2004 4:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Echo,
Last two posts were very nice. Good stuff!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/19/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | What it seems to me that the Nicene creed attempts to do, like all attempts at systematic theology, is to simply synthesize and summarize the biblical data regarding the subject in question.
As the Scripture plainly reveals the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet adamantly insists that there is only ONE GOD, the "three-in-one" (which is what "trinity" means) is obviously the only logical conclusion one can come to with respect to this issue.
Even Oneness Pentecostals I have known (two roomates and a good friend of mine who was a former UPC pastor), use the term, "three-in-one God" when referring to "the Godhead."
All the other terms, "perichoresis," "interpenetration," "procession," etc., logically flow out of the basic idea that they all are clearly shown in Scripture to be Deity, while at the same time to relate to one another in a personal way.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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pen-name
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 4/19/2004 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm glad to see you post your ideas, John.
I disagree with the assessment that Nicea was an academic exercise ("systematic theology"). Far from it. But, oh well.
As to "obviously the only logical conclusion one can come to with respect to this issue" we certainly agree. But the Greeks believed in profound oneness between creator and creation; and the Gnostics in profound disjunction. The church had to preserve the faith, and to do so involved building protective hedges. Some of them were academics (like in Alexandria) and some of them were pastors (like the Capadocians), and the church profited from the joint-contribution.
However, I'd need to see more specifically what you have to say about "perichoresis," "interpenetration," and "procession." You were either too general or too vague. Do you have more to add to that? | | Back to Top | | |
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bug
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 4/19/2004 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Starkman
Well, thank you, bug!
That makes my day!!!
Starkman
T H A N K S ! | | Back to Top | | |
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pen-name
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 4/19/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
[I never used the term, "academic exercise."
The "nit" that I'll pick at is this: That Nicea was not "systematic theology." It is in the appopathic tradition.
But thanks for the response.
We agree some  we disagree some. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/19/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pen-name
However, I'd need to see more specifically what you have to say about "perichoresis," "interpenetration," and "procession." You were either too general or too vague. Do you have more to add to that?
Perichoresis follows logical and scripturally from the statements by Jesus Christ in John chs. 14-17; i.e., "the Father is in me and I am in the Father...," etc.
"Proceeds from the Father," as TGB so aptly noted, is a direct quote from Scripture.
Likewise, "begotten" comes directly from the pages of Holy Writ. Also, it is self-evident that a Son is by definition begotten.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/19/2004 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pen-name
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
[I never used the term, "academic exercise."
The "nit" that I'll pick at is this: That Nicea was not "systematic theology." It is in the appopathic tradition.
But thanks for the response.
I found the following definitions on the website of an Episcopal church:
quote:
There are two generally accepted main avenues of prayer:
Apopathic – Known as a path through silence. This involves meditation, contemplation, or prayer that leads to the center of our being. It requires disciplined concentration, which is why this particular state is sometimes referred to as “resting in God.” In this sense, walking labyrinth helps quiet the mind.
Kathopathic – Known as a path through images. Imagination leads to the center of our being. Requires letting images appear, such as Jesus, a lamb, or light. These images sometimes come from dreams, but do not involve fantasy.
Gasp! Don't let spenlake find out you believe apopathism is Christian. 
But seriously, what I was referring to when I said the Nicene Creed was an attempt at systematizing the scriptural data concerning the Deity of Christ, God, and the Spirit. It is not apparent how the creeds are not an attempt at systemization and summarization. It also is not clear how apophaticism, as defined above, directly relates to the creedal formulations that developed from Nicea on. All the creeds seem to be are a summarization of the basic gist of the Christian message. What's so meditative about that?
(Of course, I know these bishops were probably very spiritual people who prayed that what they formulated correctly represented the truth, but it is not apparent how meditation has anything to do with constructing a creedal doctrinal statement). | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/19/2004 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Perichoresis follows logical and scripturally from the statements by Jesus Christ in John chs. 14-17; i.e., "the Father is in me and I am in the Father...," etc.
"Proceeds from the Father," as TGB so aptly noted, is a direct quote from Scripture.
Likewise, "begotten" comes directly from the pages of Holy Writ. Also, it is self-evident that a Son is by definition begotten.
Ah! You'd written: "...logically flow out of the basic idea that they all are clearly shown in Scripture to be Deity, while at the same time to relate to one another in a personal way."
I see what you mean/meant now. THANKS for helping me get past what felt like there was other overtones. That really helped.
Thanks.
Danke Schon!
You also wrote: "But seriously, what I was referring to when I said the Nicene Creed was an attempt at systematizing the scriptural data concerning the Deity of Christ, God, and the Spirit. It is not apparent how the creeds are not an attempt at systemization and summarization. It also is not clear how apophaticism, as defined above, directly relates to the creedal formulations that developed from Nicea on. All the creeds seem to be are a summarization of the basic gist of the Christian message."
Again, I thought you were shading in one direction instead of another; but it was in my imagination.
Sorry.
Thanks once again.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/19/2004 2:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Apopathic – Known as a path through silence.
Not a very good definition. What's there is called "HESYCHASTIC" oops. Maybe a better definition than I first thought. I also found this:
quote:
In Orthodox Tradition the theologian is, par excellence, the one who prays, and real theology is done while standing in that prayer which reaches the stillness of the deep heart. By this understanding, there are few real theologians and little or no "written" Theology. The links on this page have to do with theology in the sense that in the relationship between God and the world there is a great mystery in which certain ways of speaking are and other ways of speaking are not adequate to the task of pointing out this mystery and describing how we may and may not speak about it.
Apopathic is theology, as I meant it, is by negation: Not saying more than one can; and drawing hedges around where one shouldn't go.
quote:
The Orthodox accept the use of reason to understand revelation; it is used apophatically in understanding from revelation what God is not and parallel-wise with other Mysteries.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/21/2004 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Interesting, Tigress.
Hold that, and Augustine's "God-shaped-hole" together, and cloae to your heart.
There are some weaknesses, I think, in what you said--ONLY if one would take it that our dispare in separation from God is what his Love prescribes. But I don't think you are "going there."
Peace.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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joneames
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 4/21/2004 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | hi
Totally new here. Right now I am doing (trying to) do some debate at a calvinist forum (message board) and would request someone (anyone's) help here. Right now it's a universal love debate.
I am for God's universal love, and it's me on everyone. I used about 10 references to support it, and without surprise, I am getting the "all doesn't mean all" everyone doesn't mean everyone, "who is the "all men" referring to etc.. Well I cannot find an exegesis of
2 peter 3:9, and I Tim 2:4. Can anyone in here help? I am passinate about his, and although I don't expect my debating it will really change anyone, ya never know, I'll give it a try. What would be better than awesome would be if Greg Boyd could offer me his explanation of 1 tim 2 and 2 pet 3. I know you hold to this Greg, and I know you don't believe it without good reason, I'd just love to know what that is, because I am clueless on exegesis. But anyone's help here would be much apperciated. Thanks a bunch.
God bless , Jon | | Back to Top | | |
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