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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/8/2004 6:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sorry Pot, that I got caught up in all the snide comments and wound up getting distracted from the things you were saying.
After reading all your comments on what you had read, and the definitons of theology, given by "theologians", I can see where they fit into a lot of what I was saying. I just serriously question what their "methods" are.
For you stated:
quote:
According to Saint Gregory Palamas
theologians are the God-seers; those who have followed the "method"
of the Church and have attained to perfect faith, to the illumination of the nous and to divinisation (theosis).
Theology is the fruit of man's cure and the path which leads to cure
and the acquisition of the knowledge of God.
I looked up who Saint Gregory was and was immediately drawn to this statement about him.
"Gregory believes that although God is ultimately unknowable, man can experience his energies through the sacraments and mystical experience, which are possible because of the Incarnation of Christ. The practice of the Jesus prayer opens one to God's energies. "
I am sure that Saint Gregory was a sincere man, but I am not convinced that what he believed was the truth.
Gregory's belief that God is ultimately unknowable, I believe is contrary to what the scriptures actually teach.
John 8:32 If you continue in my WORD, then you shall be my disciples indeed and you shall KNOW THE TRUTH, and the truth shall make you free.
John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes unto the Father but by me. If you had KNOWN ME, ye should have KNOWN MY FATHER also, and from henceforth you have known him and have seen him.
What was it that enabled them to both know and see God?
John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me, and he htat lives me hsall be loved of my Father and I will love him and will manifest myself to him. (23) If a man love me he will KEEP MY WORDS: and my Father will love him and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loves me not keeps not MY SAYINGS: and the WORD which you haer is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Now he was speaking these things to those who had been with him throughout his ministry and had heard him teach. They eventually wrote these same things down of which he was speaking so that we can now READ them in the WRITTEN WORD, and hence come to know him as they did through READING and coming to an understanding of him and his Father.
Hence when we keep those words, and sayings, we can absolutely come to know God, and show that we truly love him by keeping his commandments.
So here Jesus said we could know God, and Saint Gregory says we could not know God and only experience his energies. So who would be right? I mean it sounds good, and I am sure Saint Gregory was sincere. But this is the main thing I see about theology, that we listen to much to the opinions of long dead ( as well as many living) theologians, rather than going to the scriptures and speaking more of them.
Besides the history of theology in general I have a real problem with the fact that they do many many times seem to actually lead people away from the scriptures rather then to them.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2004 2:02 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2004 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
"So here Jesus said we could know God, and Saint Gregory says we could not know God and only experience his energies. So who would be right? I mean it sounds good, and I am sure Saint Gregory was sincere. But this is the main thing I see about theology, that we listen to much to the opinions of long dead ( as well as many living) theologians, rather than going to the scriptures and speaking more of them."
In Christ,
larris
Here I am at the public library, newly painted steps covered in plastic to ward off the rain, my son checked out some books... and since my wife uses the computer for her Doc program, i'll struggle with a strange keyboard. Fifteen typos so far. (19!)
larris, I'll answer you with much simpathy. So would "they." Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory Naz. (23 typos) had a guy named Eunomous to contend with. E. and another guy, "A", said that they knew God as well as God knew himself! Wow. Some humility, huh? Obviously, that, along with other things they were preaching needed responding to.
A different Gregory (St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Basil's brother) said it this way -- and I think you will feel comfortable with it -- that, We do not know God as God knows himself. We are not part of the Trinity! But we do know God personally, rather than just through a collection of ideas and theories and logical arguements.
With this so far?
That is different than saying that "we don't know God." Our experience of God is not inside the Trinity. Our experience is of the "uncreated divine energies" of God. "Uncreated" because God's grace is accessible to humanity, as humanity was created for fellowship with God; and Christ's incarnation shows the compatability of humanity to be filled with God's Spirit. "Divine" because...that's obvious. "Energies" is most easily erad as "Actions", as this is not our reachign out and touching God but God's actions in our direction.
Gregory Palamas defended monks (very dedicated lay persons -- not clergy) who practiced silent or very simple prayer and focused devotion to purify their hearts as much as possible. With that purity came clearer vision of God's actions towards them -- I suppose both the big, prividential kind, but also the daily, moment by moment love of God and presence of God's image in all those around them and God's glory in the whole world (like the Psalms declares). Purifying, like cleaning a mirror, gives a better reflection. Like a window a clearer view.
There was a scholastic theologian named Barlaam who said that the only way to know God was through ideas and logic. He attacked those monks, and said they were crazy, or bad. Palamas defended them. We can, Gregory Palamas declared, have a personal relationship with God. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2004 9:27 AM (GMT -6) | | larris: I looked up who Saint Gregory was and was immediately drawn to this statement about him. "Gregory believes that although God is ultimately unknowable, man can experience his energies through the sacraments and mystical experience, which are possible because of the Incarnation of Christ. The practice of the Jesus prayer opens one to God's energies. " . . .Gregory's belief that God is ultimately unknowable, I believe is contrary to what the scriptures actually teach.
PoW: See the post right above this. Gregory Palamas didn't say that you couldn't know God. He just said you would never know him in his "essence" that the Trinity share. You will never be part of the Trinity. But as the Scriptures you pointed out say, we can know god DIRECTLY. But only insofar as he reveals himself to us. Again, see that post.
larris: Now he was speaking these things to those who had been with him throughout his ministry and had heard him teach.
PoW: Part of the Gospels is the account of the Transfiguration on Tabor. That is seen by Gregory and others as an example of the energies (divine light) of God made visible to those with eyes to see. In less dramatic fashion also accounted in the Gospels are those who KNEW (could see with the EYES of their heart) that Jesus was the Christ! ("No man revealed this to youl..."
larris: Besides the history of theology in general I have a real problem with the fact that they do many many times seem to actually lead people away from the scriptures rather then to them.
PoW: I do too, larris. That's why attention to the actual "history" in the history of theology is important!  | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2004 9:44 AM (GMT -6) | | larris, I found this using Yahoo:
quote:
According to Palamas, "God is not substance so that we may only speak about Him, for He did not say, «I am the substance», but He said, «I am that I am» [xlvii]. The being does not spring from substance, but substance results from the being [xlviii]. Therefore, God is a personality that invites us; the personality whose presence we feel and to meet whom we press forward. If the substance of God remains inaccessible, His operations become accessible to us. The purified can by virtue of an excellent spiritual gift see the light of God just as the disciples had done in Thabor. And though this light is called a symbol, it is a natural one and does not exist apart from God; in other words, it is an uncreated operation of His. This vision constitutes the beginning of a meeting which ends in the participation in the operations of God. Thus through his vision of God man rises without a bodily ecstasy to a personality that can speak with God and is able to become an associate ïf God.
www.saintnicholas.org/st-gregory-double-knowledge.htm
Note that the author/tranlastor/? words it: If the substance of God remains inaccessible, His operations become accessible to us.
This is the "essence" and "energies" without the odd words.
Gregory Palamas' use of the word "symbol" needs explaining to us who grew up Baptist. When he says that the "light" we see is a "natural symbol" that can be taken as if I were to say the same thing as that the sunlight is the "sym-bol" (similar-throw) of the Sun; which it is. Knowing the sunlight is knowing the sun in its "opperations" (light energy, heat energy, etc.) but not its "substance" (hydrogen, helium, other elements, heat, more heat, lots more heat and fire...) Gregory IS saying that knowing God through the real operations IS knowing God! They are not a mirror of God, a picture of God, a diagram of God. It is God reaching out to us and really touching us.
Paul spoke of his being caught up to the third heaven. It was not a permanent attainment. But it changed him. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
www.ptloma.edu/philrel/reed/reedings/1994/41Sept94.htm
REEDINGS . . .
Notes on Books by Gerard Reed
Number Forty-One September 1994
*****************************************************************
EASTERN ORTHODOXY
Though the perspectives of Eastern Orthodox peoples have rarely received much attention in the West, there is (perhaps because of the Iron Curtain's collapse) a growing interest in The Orthodox Way as Bishop Kallistos Ware titles his fine introduction to the subject (Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir's seminary Press, 1993). First published in 1979, this book provides an accurate and accessible entree to the riches of Orthodoxy. Yoked with his classic The Orthodox Church, Ware's scholarly works give us the best introductions to his church.
He begins by insisting that the only way to know truth about the Way is to "step out upon this path, commit ourselves to this way of life," to discover it through a "living experience" of its reality (p. 8). Christian Faith, to the Orthodox, is less a rational system of belief than a life-giving relationship with the Holy Spirit.
This insistence grows out of the Orthodox insistence that God is fundamentally Mystery. As St Gregory of Nyssa said, "'God's name is not known; it is wondered at'" (p. 16). We know little more about God than a new baby knows of the world. This is not to say we know nothing, however. We can never know God in His essence, but we can know him as we discern his energies, as He works in His world.
According to St Maximus the Confessor, our knowledge of God comes "'from the grandeur of his creation and from his providential care for all creatures. For by this means, as if using a mirror, we attain insight into his infinite goodness, wisdom and power'" (p. 31). While alone in the desert, St Anthony was asked how he could find truth. In response, he said, "'My book, philosopher, is the nature of created things, and whenever I wish I can read in it the works of God'" (p. 54).
What we cannot fathom concerning God's essence, such as His trinitarian nature, He must supernaturally reveal to us. The first seven Ecumenical Councils, which Orthodoxy considers doctrinally definitive, defined God as three persons in one essence. Easterners have always insisted on keeping the three persons--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--distinct, a community within the godhead.
God the Son became man. Christ's Incarnation marked a new day for humanity. In His perfection we envision our potentiality. "The Incarnation," Ware says, "is not simply a way of undoing the effects of original sin, but it is an essential stage upon man's journey from the divine image to the divine likeness" (p. 93). Conversion, repentance, faith, are not a one-time crises but continuing steps along the Way. That journey involves an increased sharing, a participation in the very nature of God.
This "participation" means, to the Orthodox, "deification," a term which abrasively grates on Western ears. It closely resembles what we Wesleyans call "sanctification." As Ware explains it, "To be deified is . . . to be 'christified': the divine likeness that we are called to attain is the likeness of Christ. It is through Jesus the God-man that we men are 'ingodded', 'divinized', made 'sharers in the divine nature' (2 Pet. 1:4). By assuming our humanity, Christ who is Son of God by nature has made us sons of God by grace. In him we are 'adopted' by God the Father, becoming sons-in-the-son" (p. 98).
Such participation assumes man's free will. Created in God's image, we are free. By its very nature, love requires freedom. A loving God is free. To love God we must be free as well. Unlike many Western theologians, who have often slipped into an Augustinian-Calvinistic determinism, the Orthodox (from St Irenaeus of Lyons onward) have resolutely stressed the necessary human role in salvation. "We are to hold in balance two complementary truths: without God's grace we can do nothing; but without our voluntary co-operation God will do nothing" (p. 149).
Human freedom derives from the real and active presence of the Holy Spirit. Where the Spirit is, there is freedom! "The whole aim of the Christian life," says Ware, "is to be a Spirit-bearer, to live in the Spirit of God, to breathe the Spirit of God" (p. 119). Thus, "If the aim of the Incarnation is the sending of the Spirit at Pentecost, the aim of Pentecost is the continuation of Christ's Incarnation within the life of the Church" (p. 124).
The reality and power of the Holy Spirit have generally been emphasized more in the East than the West. Christ's crucifixion has often been the focus of Western theology; his resurrection has generally remained central to Easterners. As St Athanasius said, "'The Logos took flesh, that we might receive the Spirit'" (p. 124).
This stress on the Holy Spirit at work within us explains the interest Wesleyans (including Wesley) have taken in Orthodox thought. To understand its basic teachings, Ware's treatise gives us solid guidance.
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Ochuk
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| Posted 7/9/2004 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Does it say in scripture that God draws the line for humanity knowing Him between His energies and His essence? I know those aren't the words the in most translations, but where does that idea come from. The only thing I can think of is when it talks about someone seeing God's glory. I know that the Bible talks about God being hidden and God being revealed. Does it say as exactly as the Gregorys and Eastern Orthodox theology what the point is where God stops revealling Himself?
Point one:
Sahid, as you can see by the Sun/sunlight analogy, when you apply it to what you just said, what you get is, that when applied to the question "what the point is where God stops revealling Himself" you get this: ALL revelation IS God's energies/operations. While essence is is the nature shared in the Triune God.
Stick to the word "operations" because it will give you less trouble.
And notice that the nature of God is generated by his "Being" (verb) God. Think about that. There is no substance called "nature" that produces a behavior called "god." The Person of God needs, in our minds, to be foremost. God is love because that is what God does, and is in Trinity (again its verb, and not noun).
Another thing to keep straight is the "economic" action of God versus what is inter-trinitarian. We CAN participate in what God reveals, opperates, graces us with. We cannot reach out into the intertrinitarian... Words fail me.
Again, to the point, anything revelation is God's opperations.
Point two:
Salvation in Christ is our participation in the deified humanity, which is humanity fulfilled in its original created intentional form, or Christ. IN CHRIST we can participate in the love of the Trinitarian God. We can do this "by grace"; but not by nature. We are creatures. The Son is divine. The Son can participate in the Trinity. We cannot. But "BY him and IN him and THROUGH him" (sound familiar) we can participate in the Love of God.
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/10/2004 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | POW. you state: And notice that the nature of God is generated by his "Being" (verb) God. Think about that. There is no substance called "NATURE" that produces a behavior called "god." The Person of God needs, in our minds, to be foremost. God is love because that is what God does, and is in Trinity (again its verb, and not noun).
You stated: "There is no substance called "NATURE" that produces behavior called "god", But what dose the scripture say?
2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Peter makes is CLEAR that we become partakers of the DIVINE NATRUE through the KNOWLEDGE of him that has called us to GLORY AND VIRTUE. This "knowledge" is a "substance". Peter also makes it clear that grace and peace are multiplied to us through this SAME KNOWLEDGE. This KNOWLEDGE is contained in the WRITTEN WORD, that we have before our face in what is called The Bible, which Peter calls the MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY, whereunto we do well take heed. The written word is a "substance" which we can partake of.
2 Peter 1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence,
add to your faith virtue;
and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance;
and to temperance patience;
and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness;
and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is by literally setting out to learn these qualities of GOD which were also displayed in the Lord Jesus Christ, and are spoken of and writen of in the WORD OF GOD, that we become established in the faith and parakers of his DIVINE NATURE. As it is EXERCISING ourselves unto GODLINESS.
BUT HE THAT LACKS THESE THINGS IS BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
He who LACKS these above listed qualities is BLIND. Because not to develope these qualities in your life, by OBEYING the commandments to be such is SIN.
ALSO as it is written "IF they speak not according to this word it is because there is no LIGHT in them. There is a reason that men endeavor to constantly speak about God without using the Word of God except in a very minor format.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (34) For he whom God hath sent SPEAKS THE WORDS OF GOD: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.(6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
2Peter 1: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
We have those things in remembrance through what we have just READ. It is the WRITTEN WORD, spoken by these holy men this is SPIRIT and is LIFE just as it was when Jesus spoke it in person for the first time. ONLY in understanding and living according to these written words do we truly partake of the divine nature.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY is the WRITTEN WORD, more sure than the literal voice of God himself as Peter plainly declairs. And why dose he declair that the WRITTEN WORD is more sure than a literal voice speaking to us from heaven?
1Tim. 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
BECAUSE of DECEIVING SPIRITS, that men would rather commune with and listen to than rightly dividing the Word of truth and speaking according to and with the Written Word of God.
Througout the history of PHILOSOPHY/THEOLOGY so called great men of the Chruch have communed with deceiving spirits received knowledge and then taught this knowledge to others as the knowledge of God.
2 Peter 2:1 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
Both the Churches of the East and the West, the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox combined Greek Philosophy with the Written Word of God, to come up with modes and methods of knowing God and worshipping him that were in fact derived from seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/10/2004 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You stated: "Salvation in Christ is our participation in the deified humanity, which is humanity fulfilled in its original created intentional form, or Christ. IN CHRIST we can participate in the love of the Trinitarian God. We can do this "by grace"; but not by nature. We are creatures. The Son is divine. The Son can participate in the Trinity. We cannot. But "BY him and IN him and THROUGH him" (sound familiar) we can participate in the Love of God."
However "THROUGH him" has a different meaning to you than to me. For to the theologians you speak of "THROUGH him", mean a direct encounter with a spirit that they ASSUMED was Jesus. But according to the Written Word of God "THROUGH HIM", means THROUGH THE WRITTEN KNOWLEDGE OF HIM", that any man can simply READ and apply.
As stated before, it is through the KNOWLEDGE OF HIM, as declaired in the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD, that we both become partakers of his devine nature AND PARTICIPATE IN ALL HIS FULLNESS.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Once God has been "declared" he has been made "known" and it is in knowing the WORDS of Jesus Christ now WRITTEN in the WORD of God, that we become partarkers of that SAME FULNESS.
Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
WHEREBY WHEN YOU READ, YOU MAY UNDERSTAND MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST.(14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
We don't contemplate revelation, and Jesus dose not come to us to inlighten us. We READ and come to an understanding of revelation that has ALREADY BEEN GIVEN, and then WRITTEN DOWN. Then and ONLY THEN do we know the true Jesus. Those men you speak of who combined Greek philosophy with the faith, received false revelation that stated the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the WRITTEN SCRIPTURES STATE. They literally do not think that you can know God by your five senses or by READING. Rather they received revelation from spirits they assumed were Christ, which gave them false knowledge and then they picked out verses of scripture and words here and there from the Scriptures and used those verses and words to propigate their false understanding.
But it take your five senses your natural abilities to READ, COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND scripture. Scripture is composed of WORDS and those WORDS as Jesus stated WERE SPIRIT and they were life. The entrance and understanding of the WRITTEN WORD gives light, life and truth.
To be IN CHRIST, is to know this written Word, and understand it. To be IN CHRIST is to then KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, WORDS and SAYINGS as they are WRITTEN.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments. He that says he knows him, and keeps not his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: Hereby know we that we are in him. He that says he abides in him ought to himself also so to walk even as he walked.
THAT is being IN CHRIST. Peter said that we were to ADD to our FAITH, virtue, knowledge, temperance, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity. These are things one learns to DO by reading and practicing the Written Word of God, most especially those teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles. These are not things that most of your theologians did. Rather they sat around and tried to get an "EXPERIENCE" in which they were possessed by a "SPIRIT" and then came up with all the esoteric mystical explanations of how you can't know God, except through a "spirtual" encounter". This is their definition of being IN CHRIST, having a "mystical" experience in which they were "inlightened". But that inlightenment was not of God. For true inlightenment comes from simply reading, understanding and DOING what you learn. And it is something ANY MAN can do, in the same exact manner he learns anything else.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
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Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/10/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | I might add here regarding the subject this topic originally stated with, that it was primarily addressed to Dr. Boyd, who's favorite quote is "The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.
Which makes any ones complaint of length or subject matter void. For that very quote goes towards proving exactly what I have been stating all along. Namely that through education, God's men are being led away from the truth in Christ, through PHILOSOPHY. For here we have a man of God, quoting as his favorite quote something a pagan philosopher said about a pagan God, to refer to The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the "Open View", (of which there is some truth.) HOWEVER if one were to really read the record in Plato's Republic 10, one would find that Socrates was not at all expressing any kind of OPEN VIEW.
For the "choosers" in the story are choosing LOTS, which are absolutely predestined and foreknown. So in essence Dr. Boyd is quoting the very thing the Open View teaches against. One can easily go to http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html then click on chapter 10 and read the full story to see that what I am saying is so.
Not only dose philosophy/theology keep men from seeing the truth of what the sciptures often teach, it also keeps them from seeing and understanding what the very philosophers they quote actually taught.
Within what is called "theology" there will of course be "some truth", since men are after all studying the Bible or using it to some degree or another. But if men would get rid of and renounce all their theological training, systems and methods and simply get into the Word of God, they would find the actual full truth. What theology/philosophy dose is combine truth with error, and lead one away from Christ, making him think he is going towards Christ. In other words makes him think he sees when he is still blind.
History proves that Christianity adopted the Greek philosophy concerning GOD of Plato and Aristotle. And in essence applied their interpretations to the scriptures. But their views of God were of a PAGAN God a devil and not of the true God.
Now these things are taught as the "norm" in every educational institution in the World, taking well meaning sincere God loving men and turning them into teachers that unintentionally corrupt the meaning of scripture. EVERY doctrine that you all have been taught by the Churches has been corrupted through the mixing of Greek philosophy called THEOLOGY, with the words of the Bible. Therefore God is calling you ALL to please acknowledge the truth of this, to come out of it, and RE-LEARN the truth of the scriptures. God's judgment is soon to come upon the Churches and those that mix pagan and eastern mysticism with his Word and call it truth. He dose not desire that any of you should have to undergo this judgment, but that as even a child can look at the simplest of books and see the truth of this history, that you look into it and see it and come out of it.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/10/2004 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Point one:
...ALL revelation IS God's energies/operations. While essence is is the nature shared in the Triune God.
...We cannot reach out into the intertrinitarian... Words fail me.
Point two:
IN CHRIST we can participate in the love of the Trinitarian God. We can do this "by grace"; but not by nature. ...The Son can participate in the Trinity. We cannot.
Sahid: Says who? Do these ideas have scriptural basis or just traditional basis? (I see tradition as being useful, but not as foundational.) I (kinda) understand what you're saying, but my question is why. Is this Biblical?
PoW: Maybe its getting late. But sometimes that you could do the work yourself. Ya think?
Of course its scriptural. "No man has seen God, except in the Son" (or something like that). You never became one of the Trinity. Yet God revealed himself in Christ, and Christ sent the Holy Spirit. Fini.
As to theosis, try: II Peter 1:4, "...become partakers of divine nature,"
Christ dwelling in us IS the the goal of the Christian life. (More later!
Sahid: It sounds like you're saying we will be deified, but we won't be like God in essence. So what is deification? Is it pretending, acting like God while, if we are being honest, we are not really like God?
PoW: (By Christ, God) hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world." (II Peter 1:4) "For whom (God) forknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren." (Romans 8:29) "We all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory into glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord." (II Corinthians 3:18)
To FAST TRACK you, Zack, just see the LINKS on this page: mycopticchurch.com/articles/ They are borrowed from a defunct site--so the internal links don't work. Return to minue each time.
Content from one of the pages is here:
quote:
THE BIBLE HAS MUCH TO SAY about theosis. The most quoted verse for theosis is one which seems rather isolated to some, i.e., II Peter 1:4, "...become partakers of divine nature," or as the NEB translation says, "to share in the very being of God." Although II Peter is a very explicit statement about theosis, there are many other verses in the Bible that refer to salvation as "participation" or "sharing" or "fellowship" with God.
St. Paul says that we are made to be "filled with the fullness of ... God" (Ephesians 3:19). What is being "filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God" but theosis?
The Apostle John writes that God's Son and Spirit have appeared on earth to bring God people and the world into the fullness of God's being and the life of the Kingdom: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. And of His fullness we have all received..." (John 1:14, 16).
In John 17:22-23, Jesus prays the prayer of theosis: "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one...."
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich" (II Corinthians 8:9).
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus... But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:1, 9-11).
Theosis, participation in the life of God, is further evidenced in verses such as the following which speak of God in us: "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" (John 14:23). "...It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." (Galatians 2:20). Paul's desire is that "Christ is formed in you" (Galatians 4:19).
When the Apostle John says that "it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is," he is referring to the future theosis of those who were now made children of God (I John 3:2).
Psalm 82:6, which is quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 is another strong reference to theosis: "'I said, "You are gods"'?" We see in this verse that even in the Old Testament, which is the guardian of monotheism, the word "gods," which Jesus quotes, was applied to people. It speaks of the God-given potential of theosis.
When we unite ourselves unto Christ we become "transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (II Corinthians 3:18). "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man" (I Corinthians 15:49).
Christ took His human nature into heaven. There our glorified and deified human nature already stands before the throne of God. "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3).
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
"...Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). When Christ dwells in us, His presence creates a unique "hope of glory." Describing this "hope of glory," C.S. Lewis wrote in his book "The Weight of Glory": "The promise of scripture may very roughly be reduced to five heads... firstly, that we shall be with Christ; secondly, that we shall be like Him; thirdly... that we shall have 'glory'; fourthly, that we shall in some sense be fed or feasted or entertained; and finally, that we shall have some sort of official position in the universe - ruling cities, judging angels, being pillars of God's temple."
Truly, when we consider God's promise regarding theosis, "it does not yet appear what we shall be" (I John 3:2).
The author of Hebrews takes this a step further when he speaks of our share in or partaking "of the heavenly calling" (3:1), and he declares that we are made partakers of Christ and of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the Apostle Paul again affirms that those who rise in Christ will "put on" God's own incorruptible immortality.
St. Paul speaks of the fullness of God's presence abiding in us, when he prays, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (II Corinthians 13:13).
All these verses constitute only a small part of the many references to theosis found in the scriptures.
mycopticchurch.com/articles/read.asp?f=spiritual/theosis_and_the_bible.html
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/10/2004 7:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
POW. you state: And notice that the nature of God is generated by his "Being" (verb) God. Think about that. There is no substance called "NATURE" that produces a behavior called "god." The Person of God needs, in our minds, to be foremost. God is love because that is what God does, and is in Trinity (again its verb, and not noun).
You stated: "There is no substance called "NATURE" that produces behavior called "god", But what dose the scripture say?
2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
larris, I just LOVE all those verses. See the post that has them and more that I left for Zack.
BUT.............you gotta read better. Especially late at night when I have to get to bed I don't want to respond to someone who just didn't put the effort into reading what I really wrote. You twisted my post to somehow mean to you that I'm denying those things in scripture. But the fact IS that I wasn't talking about that at all.
Lets look again at what I wrote -- and take the WHOLE sentence!
"There is no substance called "NATURE" that produces behavior called "god."
Are you saying that there IS a substance that produces behavior? No, you aren't. Neither am I--I'm saying the opposite.
What that statement says is that God's Love is not God following some exterior rules (which would then be greater than God if he had to obey them). And God's Love is not the result of any substance that he is made of. God is not a creature. God's Love IS what God does. God's "ontology" is Communion. For us to be God-like is for us to love. And ALL love originates with God! "We love because he first loved us."
So, larris. Cut me a break. I'm NOT guilty of what you accused me of saying.
Sheeeze!  | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/10/2004 7:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
quote:
You stated: "Salvation in Christ is our participation in the deified humanity, which is humanity fulfilled in its original created intentional form, or Christ. IN CHRIST we can participate in the love of the Trinitarian God. We can do this "by grace"; but not by nature. We are creatures. The Son is divine. The Son can participate in the Trinity. We cannot. But "BY him and IN him and THROUGH him" (sound familiar) we can participate in the Love of God."
However "THROUGH him" has a different meaning to you than to me. For to the theologians you speak of "THROUGH him", mean a direct encounter...
We sing this song in our Calvinist church:
Romans 11:33-36
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen.
I mean, and the author I quoted mean what Paul means!
Calvin wrote of the Glory of God that it is God's spirit that we encounter. He did not use the same term; but the idea is there. Calvinists beleive in the REAL PRESENCE in communion of The Lord's Body and Blood. By the Spirit, the encounter -- Calvin reasoned -- is in heaven where Christ's body is. The old liturgies phraseing "We life up our hearts" is figurative of that drawing up by the spirit of our hearts to Christ. Its almost Orthodox. 
I RESENT THE INFERENCE THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CONSRUCT. ISN'T THAT "BEARING FALSE WITNESS!?" (Breaking a commandment.) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/10/2004 7:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
History proves that Christianity adopted the Greek philosophy concerning GOD of Plato and Aristotle. And in essence applied their interpretations to the scriptures. But their views of God were of a PAGAN God a devil and not of the true God.
Don't just gloss over centuries of history, larris. Be specific.
It looks like you are generalizing quite a lot.
Actually, the Christian way back then did the SAME kind of thing that Inter Varisity Christian Fellowship and other contemporary missions efforts talk about -- they CONVERTED THE CULTURE. They recast terms and concepts in order to carry the Gospel message into another culture. And they changed it! Helenic culture became filled with a Christian worldview. | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/11/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | POW you stated:
quote:
"Lets look again at what I wrote -- and take the WHOLE sentence!
"There is no substance called "NATURE" that produces behavior called "god."
Are you saying that there IS a substance that produces behavior? No, you aren't. Neither am I--I'm saying the opposite."
I read you perfectly clear! And I am SAYING THERE IS A SUBSTANCE THAT PRODUCES BEHAVIOR.
POW, you then stated:
quote:
"What that statement says is that God's Love is not God following some exterior rules (which would then be greater than God if he had to obey them)."
Psl. 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
God by his choice gave his Word, had it written down and magnified it above all his name. He KEEPS his OWN WORD. And lucky for you and I that he dose. Yes he OBEYS his own Written Word, the COVENANTS that he makes with man. In other words he is a God of His Word and he's not afraid to WRITE it down and then prove to us he will keep it.
The BIBLE, the WRITTEN WORD is a SUBSTANCE composed of EXTERRIOR RULES. A "BOOK" is a SUBSTANCE. WRITTEN WORDS are a SUBSTANCE, and they are EXTERRIOR RULES.
Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
The WORD OF GOD that abode in them was first SPOKEN by Jesus, then taught by his apostles and then WRITTEN DOWN. That is a SUBSTANCE, a BOOK of EXTERRIOR RULES. Jesus kept the WRITTEN WORD. IT is the WRITTEN WORD a physical substance that made it available for him to both know and do the will of his Father.
Duet. 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Duet 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
Ecc. 1210 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Matt. 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus both knew and DID the WRITTEN WORD, which is a SUBSTANCE, composed of letters, that one reads and then dose. We only abide IN CHRIST to the extent that the WRITTEN WORD abides in us. And that depends on how much we know of it and rightly divide and understand and the believe and DO of it.
As I stated in my previous post, you learn to be like God the same way you learn ANYTHING ELSE in life. BY you FIVE SENSES, you read, understand and then DO. Once you read, understand and then do it enough it because a part of you.
Rom. 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the (preached and now WRITTEN) gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the (WRITTEN and then SPOKEN AND PREACHED) word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
A "gainsaying" people are a people that CONTRADICT what the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD states. Do they use the written word? Yes they use it like the Devil used it for their own private interpretation. But they do not DO IT. And neither do they teach that believers in Christ are supposed to do it.
LOVE is keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ as they were given to him by God, and then are now WRITTEN down in the BIBLE.
1John 4:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
God is only love, in that LOVE is one aspect of his character. But so is HATE, ANGER AND WRATH. We are not called to display those aspects of his character, that is his job against those who corrupt his WRITTEN WORD.
Duet 16:Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.
Psl. 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psl 50:16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.
Psl 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.
Prov 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Prov. 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD.
When Greek philosophy is mixed with the scriptures you wind up in mysticism that teaches you just eminate the love of the spirit out of your self "naturally", that you cannot LEARN to love by any external set of rules, and this is called "commining with the spirit".
But this is not the true spirit of God, Not is it being IN CHRIST. Being IN CHRIST, is getting your head in his Word, his teachings, his sayings and the literally DOING them in your daily life.
God is not just "love". Greek philosophy takes that statement of the Word and turns God into a NON PERSON, as if God is just some sort of invisible essence with no brain, no substance, no individuality. And then it belittels the written word, in that it never teaches God's people to read the thing and DO it. Men are saved by reading the Written Word of God and then practicing what it says to DO. As I stated JUST LIKE YOU LEARN ANYTHING ELSE.
POW, you state:
quote:
And God's Love is not the result of any substance that he is made of. God is not a creature. God's Love IS what God does. God's "ontology" is Communion. For us to be God-like is for us to love. And ALL love originates with God! "We love because he first loved us."
That scripture actually states:
1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love HIM (GOD), because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
We don't just "love" because he first loved us. We love HIM because he first loved us. And the ONLY WAY in which we show that we truly LOVE HIM...HIM...is by keeping HIS commandments. These commandments are WRITTEN DOWN in a SUBSTANCE called THE BIBLE.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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