 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Experiencing gods through other methods | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/12/2004 8:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | Now I think that these two posts, the first one done by Spenlake and the other by Ron are GREAT.
First of all the main thread post by Spen, is I believe accurate to the core and truth to a "T".
However Ron then brings up the next most extreme and valid point. For once you accept that "Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined. (And that) Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God." Then you MUST continue on to accurately define those methods and means. And THAT is where we all wind up falling apart at the seams.
I mean, I love Spens post. But Ron brings up a point that I have experienced over and over again. That when I find someone who speaks some great truths right on and so accurate according to the Word of God verbatem, then in the next instance they are telling me to do something I believe is actually contrary to sound doctrine. However one man's sound doctrine is another man's heresy. WHAT A MESS we are in huh?
However, at this point I do not believe that necessarily getting into all the ins and outs of each specific method or means is as much of the subject as just coming to grips with the fact that God dose have set standards and that these set standards are WRITTEN in his Word. Because I have been seeing a lot of teaching that is totally OUTSIDE of that Written Word, where the Word of God takes second or third place to receiving direct illumination from A "SPIRIT". And most of the time this direct illumination is actually contrary to written scripture, even though it uses some "phrases" out of scripture, such as "walking by the spirit" or being "in Christ". And even at times uses a whole verse or several verses taken out of context.
So at this point I do not care what Spens' specific understanding is of each and every method and means, as much as more clearly defining and understanding how it is that faliure to following such methods and means as explicitly defined lead one to following other gods, while thinking they are following the true God. I mean there is PLENTY that can be discussed on that issue alone, that would perhaps motivate people towards being more clear and careful about their methods and means, before any of the methods or means are ever discussed.
For instance.
Ex. 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Now what could that mean? Did that mean they were just never to mention the names of other gods?
Obvioulsy that could not be the case, since the literal "names" of other gods is mentioned in just about every book in the Bible. So then what could it mean?
God told Moses, "In all things I have SAID unto you", and those things God said were then WRITTEN DOWN. Ultimately all that God spoke to holy men, holy men than spoke to the people and the WROTE DOWN. Now we have those spoken words of God in WRITTEN FORM.
Well what about OTHER GODS? Did other gods speak to people? Well according to history there has been plenty of beings considdered "gods" that have spoken to people and these people then spoke those words to others, and then also WROTE THEM DOWN.
So what do people do when they have several books that are said to be by several different gods? Well they COMPAIR THEM. Not only do they compair them, they most often COMBINE them, in their UNDERSTANDING. They try and RECONCILE the beliefs to one another.
So here you have MOSES, who was raised in Egypt to read and write hyroglipics which mostly told of the Egyptian gods. Then you had the Isrealites who were raised around the same religion and heard all the stories of the Egyptian gods, even if they might not have been able to read and write Egyptian. So with both Moses and the People there would have been a great temptation to compair what God was then saying with what they had previously know of those other gods.
Take for instance the Egyptian god "Thoth", who was said to be the inventor of reading and writing and the interpreter of the gods. This god being in reality an evil angel, would of course know something about the true GOD, and therefore in his religion and writings would have certain truths that compaired to what the true God was now trying to convey to these people. Therefore it would be very tempting considdering how the human mind works, by "association", to associate or compair something written or taught about Thoth to what God was not having Moses write and teach the people.
When you understand the historical and cultural circumstances of the Israelites in having known other gods, you can then see why God would not want them to combine any of the knowledge of other gods, even though some of it may have been similar to what he was then telling them.
Because yes there would of course have been some truths and some similarities since angels have to at least tell some truth to get worshipped. But if you accept their truths, what is then to keep you from going on to the next step and combining a little more of their form of worship.
And this is EXACTLY what Isreal did all through it's history. It COMBINED the knowledge of the true God with that of the pagan gods in the nations around them. And how are WE any different? For the same Egyptian god Thoth is also the Greek god Hermes of which Baker's Theological Dictionary states:
"The conscious setting up of rules is hermeneutics from the god Hermes, messenger of the gods, hence hermeneuein to interpret; hermeneia, interpretation, commentary; and he hermeneutike techne, the skill or art of interpretation."
So they are telling me that I have to learn and follow these "RULES" named after a pagan devil posing as a "god" by the name of Hermes, who was also the Egyptian god Thoth, the interpreter of the pagan gods of Egypt. Ooooo...OK....right!
It seems to me, that even if we agreed that "Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined, and that failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God. That "Christian" theological RULES and methods named after one of these OTHER GODS, may not be the way to go.
For IF all it took to know and understand the wriiten word of God was to follow a prescribed rule or method, then that would pretty much put God himself out of the picture as the true and only interpreter and teacher of his Word. Plus, then any UNBELIEVER could just go take a course in hermeneutics and think he was qualified to interpret and teach God's Word.
TRUTH IS the Colleges are FULL of such people! Truth is that all of our ministers were trained in how to use the name of other gods when speaking about all that GOD has said.
So by the time you get done having your head filled with all of this....
Adoptionism, amillennialism, annihilationaism, assumption, Cosmological, Deonthology, Determinism, Dialectic, Dispensationalism, Dualism, Ecclesiology, Eisegesis, Empiricism, Epistemology, Eschatology, Exegesis, Existentialism, Falsifiability, Fidesm, Filioque, Hamartiology, Hedonism, Henotheism, Heterodoxy, Homiletics, Hypostatic Union, Infralapsarianism, Kenosis, Neo-orthodoxy, Objectivism, Ontology, Pneumatology, Premillennialism, Rationalism, Relativism, Sacredotalism, Scholasticism, Soteriology, Supralapsarianism, Teleology, Theophany, Trichotomy, Tritheism, Universalisum, Vicarious Atonement,
and finally ...
SUPERKALLAFRADULISTICEXPIALLIDOCIOUS-ISM.....or is it “OLOGY”?
Just to name a "few" so called conscious setting up of the "rules" of the god "Hermes", how is there any room in your head for the simple words of the BIBLE.
Is there some reason that I can't go to just the BIBLE, I have to go read some theological treaty, that might have a "phrase" or a "word" out of the bible, with endless THEORIES going clear back to Plato and Aristotle, before I can ever figgure out that you are actually referring to what some pagan philosopher thought about his god and not what is actually written in the WORD of GOD.
What if, the understanding of what you are quoting comes from pagan sources that have been simply "called" Christian. What if, you do it sincerely, you love the true God but you don't know the true God, becasue your understanding had been combined with the knowledge of pagan religions.
Col. 2:8 BEWARE lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the word (rudiments = FIRST PRINCIPLES OF ARISTOTLES METAPHISICS,THEOLOGY) and not after CHRIST.
2 Tim. 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, AVOIDING profane and vain babblings and oppositions of SCIENCE falsely so called (Theology, metyphysics of Aristotle and Plato), which some profession (practicing on the scriptures) have erred concering the faith.
2Cor. 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully (which is what theology taught men to do); but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Psl. 106:34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them: But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works. And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
2Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 peter 2:But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow out their distructive ways...
Hey I don't know, but the last time I looked THEOLOGY was pretty POPULAR among MANY. And if you want to find TEACHERS where is the first place you look?....IN THE SCHOOLS.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
 |
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/12/2004 9:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Larris,
It is a pleasure to read your post. I think that you are right concerning the definition of the means. My own understanding of the means may not be correct and need adjustment, however, that wasn't the topic here. The topic presented in this thread was that there are defined means and those that seek God outside of or alongside of these means using other means may find spirits other than the true God.
God has revealed Himself to us in the writings of His ordinances. In Deut 13 when it speaks of false prophets doing supernatural signs to lead people after gods that they had not "known" I believe that it was in this kind of context - not known meaning "not according to the known means that God had stipulated."
Deut 13:1
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. “You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. “But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk.
God was to be "known" by His commanded means. This is why the sons of Aaron were killed when they offered God strange fire, they found God's wrath and not His mercy. They were not seeking after the God that they had been taught and that Moses and Aaron had known.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/12/2004 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Premise: Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined. Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God.
I must have a real bad imagination, I can’t see it and seeing is believing.  No, no, no... I can't see this other God that Cain supposes. Where in the text are these other gods buried?
Genesis 4:1-17
Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man." Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?" The Lord said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth." Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." But the Lord said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. [16] So Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
The offerings of Cain and Abel were different. Cain showed a proud, unbelieving heart. Therefore he and his offering were rejected. Abel came as a sinner, and according to God’s appointment, by his sacrifice expressing humility, sincerity, and believing obedience. Thus, seeking the benefit of the new covenant of mercy, through the promised Seed, his sacrifice had a token that God accepted it. Abel offered in faith, and Cain did not, Hebrews 11:4. In all ages there have been two sorts of worshippers, such as Cain and Abel; namely, proud, hardened despisers of the gospel method of salvation, who attempt to please God in ways of their own devising; and humble believers, who draw near to him in the way he has revealed. Cain indulged malignant anger against Abel. He harboured an evil spirit of discontent and rebellion against God. God notices all our sinful passions and discontents. There is not an angry, envious, or fretful look, that escapes his observing eye. The Lord reasoned with this rebellious man; if he came in the right way, he should be accepted. Some understand this as an intimation of mercy. “If thou doest not well, sin, that is, the sin-offering, lies at the door, and thou mayest take the benefit of it.” The same word signifies sin, and a sacrifice for sin. “Though thou hast not done well, yet do not despair; the remedy is at hand.” Christ, the great sin-offering, is said to stand at the door, Revelation 3:20. And those well deserve to perish in their sins, that will not go to the door to ask for the benefit of this sin-offering. God’s acceptance of Abel’s offering did not change the birthright, and make it his; why then should Cain be so angry? Sinful heats and disquiets vanish before a strict and fair inquiry into the cause.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/12/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I must have a real bad imagination, I can’t see it. No, no, no... I can't see this other God that Cain supposes. Where in the text is this other God buried?
That's really interesting.
1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, WHO WAS OF THAT WICKED ONE, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and yu do that whch you have seen with your father.(44) Ye are of YOUR FATHER the DEVIL (the "god" of this world) and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Job 41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Luke 4:5 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Spen stated: Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined. Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God.
You then just basically stated the same thing with some detail, when you said:
"Cain showed a proud, unbelieving heart. Therefore he and his offering were rejected. Abel came as a sinner, and according to God’s appointment, by his sacrifice expressing humility, sincerity, and believing obedience. Thus, seeking the benefit of the new covenant of mercy, through the promised Seed, his sacrifice had a token that God accepted it. Abel offered in faith, and Cain did not, Hebrews 11:4. In all ages there have been two sorts of worshippers, such as Cain and Abel; namely, proud, hardened despisers of the gospel method of salvation, who attempt to please God in ways of their own devising; and humble believers, who draw near to him in the way he has revealed.
Why would you critisize and be mean to Spen for simply saying the same basic things you have said? Are you angry? Are you jealous? What is your motive for phrasing your words so arrogantly and mean?
I mean if you did not see the coralation as to how the devil becomes one's god, by their behavior, actions and beliefs, then why not just ask instead of thinking of a mean way to approach the subject?
In christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/12/2004 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lakequote:
It is a pleasure to read your post. I think that you are right concerning the definition of the means. My own understanding of the means may not be correct and need adjustment, however, that wasn't the topic here. The topic presented in this thread was that there are defined means and those that seek God outside of or alongside of these means using other means may find spirits other than the true God.
Feelinaholequote:
I hear a lot of talk that amounts to opinion. Can I hear some scripture from those who disagree
You seem to be on the same theme that you have been on in the threads discussing Dr. Boyd's book. I will give scripture instead of opinion. "When we seek HIM we will find HIM. When we seek HIM with our WHOLE heart." The cataphatic prayer exercise is ONE way of seeking HIM with our whole heart. In this verse I DO NOT see a prescription on HOW to seek God.
Now, in regard to opinion, I have come very close to God through secular music (especially classical music) I have experienced God through the arts. I find that I can worship God through enjoying these beautiful expressions. I experience Christ and not some other god.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/12/2004 2:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his compainions, how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? Or have you not read the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabboth and are innocent?
Good heart/feelings/motivations + unlawful actions/means does not = damnation
(In fact all laws boil down to love. That is to be our #1 and only priority. If I worship with my imagination in love, there are no grounds on which to accuse me.)
With what shall I come to the Lord
And bow myself before the God on high?
Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings,
With yearling calves?
Does the Lord take delight in thousands of rams,
In ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts,
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?
Good motivation + loving God and neighbor = fulfilling God's requirements
Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.
Good motivation => cleanness/purity
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/12/2004 3:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Quest and Sahid,
To somehow imply from the verse that a "pure heart" with good motives is all that is needed to seek God is the theology of the Great Pumpkin
Wherever would they get that idea?
"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the
LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their
God: for they shall return unto me with their whole
heart."
Jeremiah 24:7, KJV
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search
for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13, KJV
"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early
shall find me."
Proverbs 8:17, KJV
What "technique" did Rahab apply? She snuck the spies into her home city. What law of Moses was that?
What scriptural "technique" did the thief on the cross employ? Please post the old testament passages he quoted.
Paul quoted Epimenides. Where's his book in the old testament?
For someone who believes in "irresistible grace", it's odd you're insisting on proper "technique" now. 
Or, will God have mercy on those who sincerely call on Him?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/12/2004 4:55 PM (GMT -6) | | If the Uzzah situation is the same as the David situation then David should have been struck dead when he ate the bread. So either God is being inconsistent or these are different situations. But God is not inconsistent; He is faithful, and His faithfulness never changes.
The ark was very special. God put very strict rules around the ark. That is differnet from how God demands worship. For one thing, wrong worship is not judged immediately by an "act of God". For another thing, the rules concerning worship are internally focused; the rules concerning the ark are externally focused. To worship is to love. To love is to worship. If there are other things (imagination, beads, songs), they are at best aids and at worst distractions if real worship is going on. Third, there are rules that apply to all mankind (love), rules that apply to Jews only (circumcision), and rules that apply to certain Jews (temple duties). The last two are means to the end of love. They are external reminders and patterns of spiritual truth. Love is internal. Completely internal. It usually yields the fruit of physical action, but physical action is not necessary to love or worship.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/12/2004 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
quote:
I must have a real bad imagination, I can’t see it. No, no, no... I can't see this other God that Cain supposes. Where in the text is this other God buried?
That's really interesting.
1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, WHO WAS OF THAT WICKED ONE, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and yu do that whch you have seen with your father.(44) Ye are of YOUR FATHER the DEVIL (the "god" of this world) and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Job 41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Luke 4:5 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Spen stated: Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined. Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God.
You then just basically stated the same thing with some detail, when you said:
"Cain showed a proud, unbelieving heart. Therefore he and his offering were rejected. Abel came as a sinner, and according to God’s appointment, by his sacrifice expressing humility, sincerity, and believing obedience. Thus, seeking the benefit of the new covenant of mercy, through the promised Seed, his sacrifice had a token that God accepted it. Abel offered in faith, and Cain did not, Hebrews 11:4. In all ages there have been two sorts of worshippers, such as Cain and Abel; namely, proud, hardened despisers of the gospel method of salvation, who attempt to please God in ways of their own devising; and humble believers, who draw near to him in the way he has revealed.
Why would you critisize and be mean to Spen for simply saying the same basic things you have said? Are you angry? Are you jealous? What is your motive for phrasing your words so arrogantly and mean?
I mean if you did not see the coralation as to how the devil becomes one's god, by their behavior, actions and beliefs, then why not just ask instead of thinking of a mean way to approach the subject?
In christ,
larris
larris or Linda or whoever you really are,
I asked about Cain! Please point out the text where CAIN is worshiping these other gods.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Premise: Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined. Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God.
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/12/2004 6:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
To somehow imply from the verse that a "pure heart" with good motives is all that is needed to seek God is the theology of the Great Pumpkin and becoming the most sincere pumpkin patch. This is not the God or means that He has demanded and commanded in Christianity.
Spen Lake, sometimes we can be so heavenly bound that we are no earthly good. You need to expand your horizons and look beyond your own square box. There is so much life out there to discover but we need to have the shackles removed from our eyes. Jesus definitely reached and lived outside the box of religious laws. He is our role model. | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 2:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Are there any circumstances that would make it acceptable to seek God through a ouija board? As far as I know, the ouija board is not mentioned in scriptures nor specifically forbidden. Is it a matter of Christian liberty to be able to seek God through this or any other method?
According to the passages that were given to me, the heart is the only qualification, and my sincere heart will protect me and lead me to God.
"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the
LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their
God: for they shall return unto me with their whole
heart."
Jeremiah 24:7, KJV
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search
for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13, KJV
"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early
shall find me."
Proverbs 8:17, KJV
Perhaps someone has a sincere heart and am seeking God with all their heart and loving Him with all their might. They pray and invite the Holy Spirit to come and speak to them and they feel that He wants to minister to them through a ouija board. They have an experience in which the ouija board claims that it is the Holy Spirit inspiring it. To be absolutely certain, they ask the "Holy Spirit" if He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh and the board answers, "yes." Based on 1 John 4:1 they believe that they have tested this spirit and found God. This person then has experiences that he/she believes are "God given" and they find healing and comfort in the message that the "Holy Spirit" has communicated to them through the ouija board. Their heart is encouraged and they experience a sense of love and fellowship with God. They experience new freedom and a release from past fears, bitterness, and even physical healing as they believe the message of the "Holy Spirit" that they have received through the board. If they had any questions, they find immediate comfort in the verse, "to the pure all things are pure."
As far as I can tell, the above scenario would meet your criteria for seeking God and having Him answer you through the Holy Spirit. On what basis would you consider them to be good or bad? Ouija isn't forbidden in any verse that I am aware of and perhaps it is a new expression of how God communicates with us. The external "fruit" is healing and a wonderful sensation of the unconditional love of God. They feel comforted and the Holy Spirit is the comforter. Through this experience they find the power to forgive those around them and experience release from past emotional hurts. Is this acceptable and would you support this as an experience with God and inspired by the Holy Spirit? Does the New Testament provide us with an evolution that gives us spiritual freedom for such wonderful experiences. If you disagree with this scenario, on what basis or by what standard would you disagree? Beyond that, on what scriptural basis would you make this decision, or are they not relevant in this context?
I believe that the above actions are sinful and the actions of someone who is deluded. Is this because I am in a narrow religious box that stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the wonderful fruit that the "Spirit" is manifesting in the life of this sincere seeker?
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Are there any circumstances that would make it acceptable to seek God through a ouija board? As far as I know, the ouija board is not mentioned in scriptures nor specifically forbidden. Is it a matter of Christian liberty to be able to seek God through this or any other method?
No ouija boards were mentioned in those verses.
No ouija boards were mentioned in "Seeing is Believing".
As far as I can tell, ouija boards, corpses, mediums, extraneous objects are forbidden in scripture.
What isn't forbidden is seeking God with all your heart.
quote:
According to the passages that were given to me, the heart is the only qualification, and my sincere heart will protect me and lead me to God.
No. God will protect you and lead you to Him.
If you're in a relationship with Him, don't you trust He'll protect you?
quote:
"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the
LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their
God: for they shall return unto me with their whole
heart."
Jeremiah 24:7, KJV
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search
for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13, KJV
"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early
shall find me."
Proverbs 8:17, KJV
Meditate on scripture with a sincere heart.
God will protect you if you seek Him with a sincere heart.
Maybe you'll get a vision as well.
Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Are there any circumstances that would make it acceptable to seek God through a ouija board? As far as I know, the ouija board is not mentioned in scriptures nor specifically forbidden. Is it a matter of Christian liberty to be able to seek God through this or any other method?
No ouija boards were mentioned in those verses.
No ouija boards were mentioned in "Seeing is Believing".
As far as I can tell, ouija boards, corpses, mediums, extraneous objects are forbidden in scripture.
What isn't forbidden is seeking God with all your heart.
quote:
According to the passages that were given to me, the heart is the only qualification, and my sincere heart will protect me and lead me to God.
"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the
LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their
God: for they shall return unto me with their whole
heart."
Jeremiah 24:7, KJV
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search
for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13, KJV
"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early
shall find me."
Proverbs 8:17, KJV
Now you're getting it. Meditate on scripture with a sincere heart.
Maybe you'll get a vision as well.
Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions."
quote:
No ouija boards were mentioned in those verses.
No ouija boards were mentioned in "Seeing is Believing".
As far as I can tell, ouija boards, corpses, mediums, extraneous objects are forbidden in scripture.
What isn't forbidden is seeking God with all your heart.
I didn't claim that they were mentioned in the book. Where are the scriptures that forbid extraneous objects? The High Priest sought God's guidance through the Urim and Thummin, which were extraneous objects stored in his ephod. Saul even consulted them. Lots were also extraneous objects that people used for guidance. The 11 apostles used them in Acts 1. The lot isn't considered sinful as I understand it. Perhaps the ouija board is just a sophisticated system of "lots" (not that I believe that , but you may wish to argue it to prove your point).
Where are your scriptures forbidding extraneous objects and how do they apply to the ouija board, if you think that it is bad?
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 3:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lots were also extraneous objects that people used for guidance. The 11 apostles used them in Acts 1. The lot isn't considered sinful as I understand it. Perhaps the ouija board is just a sophisticated system of "lots" (not that I believe that , but you may wish to argue it to prove your point).
Where are your scriptures forbidding extraneous objects and how do they apply to the ouija board, if you think that it is bad?
The lot cast by the 11 apostles to choose the 12th apostle?
1. the guy chosen was never heard from again in scripture
2. God chose the 12th guy Himself, Paul, an apostle "untimely" born
I think God wasn't in their casting the lot, not His method of choosing the 12th. It's interesting that God didn't condemn them to hell for throwing the lot, though. There's forgiveness within the relationship.
Mediums, necromancy (fortune-telling out of corpses), astrology, etc. are expressly forbidden.
If you're in a love relationship with God, and you seek Him with your whole heart, sincerely, don't you trust that He will protect you from bad influences along with the guard of scripture?
I've met Christians who came to Jesus after they had encountered God while on LSD trips, not a method I'd recommend but who am I to tell God what "techniques" He can and can't use? | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lots were also extraneous objects that people used for guidance. The 11 apostles used them in Acts 1. The lot isn't considered sinful as I understand it. Perhaps the ouija board is just a sophisticated system of "lots" (not that I believe that , but you may wish to argue it to prove your point).
Where are your scriptures forbidding extraneous objects and how do they apply to the ouija board, if you think that it is bad?
The lot cast by the 11 apostles to choose the 12th apostle?
1. the guy chosen was never heard from again in scripture
2. God chose the 12th guy Himself, Paul, an apostle "untimely" born
I think God wasn't in their casting the lot, not His method of choosing the 12th. It's interesting that God didn't condemn them to hell for throwing the lot, though. There's forgiveness within the relationship.
Mediums, necromancy (fortune-telling out of corpses), astrology, etc. are expressly forbidden.
If you're in a love relationship with God, and you seek Him with your whole heart, sincerely, don't you trust that He will protect you from bad influences along with the guard of scripture?
I've met Christians who came to Jesus after they had encountered God while on LSD trips, not a method I'd recommend but who am I to tell God what "techniques" He can and can't use?
On what basis do you call the actions of the 11 apostles casting lots a "sin" needing forgiveness from God? Where in scripture do you see this. Where was anybody in scripture called a sinner for casting lots? What gives you this authority to declare their actions sin if you have no scripture? Jesus condemned the Pharisees for calling actions sinful that scriptures did not call sinful. He called this "teaching as doctrines the precepts of men."
There are many more apostles mentioned in the New Testament than 12. Perhaps Paul was one of these? That he was an apostle appointed by God Himself, as he claims in Galatians 1, I don't doubt. I do not see even one passage, however, that makes him one of the 12 or that states that Matthias was not legitimate. Where in scripture do you see God stating that Paul was actually the 12th.
You say, "Mediums, necromancy (fortune-telling out of corpses), astrology, etc. are expressly forbidden." I asked if you had a scripture that specifically forbids the ouija board. You have failed to do so. You state that extraneous objects are forbidden, but provide no scriptures to back your claim. I do believe that you are sincere in making your claim. I just think that you are wrong and that there are not scriptures forbidding all extraneous objects. I give scriptural examples to the contrary (Number 27:21; 1 Samuel 28:6; Ezra 2:63; Lev 16:8; 1 Samuel 14:42; Jonah 1:7; Acts 1:26), including New Testament references. You respond by implying that the 11 apostles sinned.
It seems to me that your theology would attempt to train sinners to acquire a pure and good heart so that they could then approach God. I believe that God grants us a pure and new heart as a gift and that we approach Him according to the means that He has expressly given to us. Seeking for the "Truth" by methods of our own creation may not lead us where we wish to go.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
On what basis do you call their casting lots a sin needing forgiveness?
They didn't sin when they cast lots. I just don't think God used the results. He chose His own 12th apostle. This is my opinion only. Just observing that they cast lots doesn't mean that's how God wanted them to resolve the issue.
quote:
There are many more apostles in the New Testament than 12. Perhaps Paul was one of these. Where in scripture do you see God stating that Paul was actually the 12th.
There may be more apostles than 12 but the Lamb had 12:
Revelation 21:14 The walls of the city were built on twelve foundation stones. On the stones were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
quote:
You respond by implying that the 11 apostles sinned.
I was alluding to your casting those who use "techniques" into hell.
I wouldn't cast the 11 apostles into hell should they have tried an invalid technique.
quote:
It seems to me that your theology would attempt to train sinners to acquire a pure and good heart so that they could then approach God.
You're making things up again.
If I encounter a Christian and he says his first impetus to seeking God was a vision he saw in an LSD trip, I'm neither training him to do anything nor approving of the approach. But neither am I casting him into hell for having been approached by God initially in that method.
You have such a legalistic view of God. Just like the Pharisees.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
If I encounter a Christian and he says his first impetus to seeking God was a vision he saw in an LSD trip, I'm neither training him to do anything nor approving of the approach. But neither am I casting him into hell for having been approached by God initially in that method.
Had me worried for minute...
peace, don
Paul quoted the oracle Epimenides as part of his witnessing "technique", so we can expect a "Critical Issues Commentary" condemning the Apostle Paul, soon.
It's telling that if you're spitefully focussing on techniques and methods and totally missing the relational aspect of it, you might just be missing the whole point.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
You're making things up again.
Yea, and I think he is starting rumors about your brother Cain. I always thought Cain was just your average Joe sinner, you know the type, full of pride, envy, rebellious heart, etc. But now Cain is being associated with ouija boards, astrologers, fortune tellers, black magic, mediums, necromancy, mystics and I suppose golden cows should be thrown in there. I know Cain was the black sheep of the family and that he came from a dysfunctional family with his mother in denial and his father blaming his mother. Hey after all that sis, it's good to see you turned out ok . But I think your brother is getting a bad rap, God protect him.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
You're making things up again.
Yea, and I think he is starting rumors about your brother Cain. I always thought Cain was just your average Joe sinner, you know the type, full of pride, envy, rebellious heart, etc. But now Cain is being associated with ouija boards, astrologers, fortune tellers, black magic, mediums, necromancy, mystics and I suppose golden cows should be thrown in there. I know Cain was the black sheep of the family and that he came from a dysfunctional family with his mother in denial and his father blaming his mother. Hey after all that sis, it's good to see you turned out ok. But I think your brother is getting a bad rap.
Yeah, I missed that part of his post, I can only wade through so much at one sitting.
God upbraided Cain for his attitude NOT his "technique".
The Pharisees focussed on "technique" and missed the whole point! | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | I still haven't had a scriptural answer to this scenario.
Perhaps someone has a sincere heart and am seeking God with all their heart and loving Him with all their might. They pray and invite the Holy Spirit to come and speak to them and they feel that He wants to minister to them through a ouija board. They have an experience in which the ouija board claims that it is the Holy Spirit inspiring it. To be absolutely certain, they ask the "Holy Spirit" if He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh and the board answers, "yes." Based on 1 John 4:1 they believe that they have tested this spirit and found God. This person then has experiences that he/she believes are "God given" and they find healing and comfort in the message that the "Holy Spirit" has communicated to them through the ouija board. Their heart is encouraged and they experience a sense of love and fellowship with God. They experience new freedom and a release from past fears, bitterness, and even physical healing as they believe the message of the "Holy Spirit" that they have received through the board. If they had any questions, they find immediate comfort in the verse, "to the pure all things are pure."
As far as I can tell, the above scenario would meet your criteria for seeking God and having Him answer you through the Holy Spirit. On what basis would you consider them to be good or bad? Ouija isn't forbidden in any verse that I am aware of and perhaps it is a new expression of how God communicates with us. The external "fruit" is healing and a wonderful sensation of the unconditional love of God. They feel comforted and the Holy Spirit is the comforter. Through this experience they find the power to forgive those around them and experience release from past emotional hurts. Is this acceptable and would you support this as an experience with God and inspired by the Holy Spirit? Does the New Testament provide us with an evolution that gives us spiritual freedom for such wonderful experiences. If you disagree with this scenario, on what basis or by what standard would you disagree? Beyond that, on what scriptural basis would you make this decision, or are they not relevant in this context?
I believe that the above actions are sinful and the actions of someone who is deluded. Is this because I am in a narrow religious box that stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the wonderful fruit that the "Spirit" is manifesting in the life of this sincere seeker?
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
You're making things up again.
Yea, and I think he is starting rumors about your brother Cain. I always thought Cain was just your average Joe sinner, you know the type, full of pride, envy, rebellious heart, etc. But now Cain is being associated with ouija boards, astrologers, fortune tellers, black magic, mediums, necromancy, mystics and I suppose golden cows should be thrown in there. I know Cain was the black sheep of the family and that he came from a dysfunctional family with his mother in denial and his father blaming his mother. Hey after all that sis, it's good to see you turned out ok. But I think your brother is getting a bad rap.
Yeah, I missed that part of his post, I can only wade through so much at one sitting.
God upbraided Cain for his attitude NOT his "technique".
The Pharisees focussed on "technique" and missed the whole point!
The Pharisees did not obey the law too much. They disobeyed the law. This is clear in that Jesus told his disciples to obey them when they spoke Moses' words but not to copy their actions.
Matthew 23:1"
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."
He tells us that they put their traditions as more important than God's law. Jesus specifically addresses this in Mark 7:3.
Mark 7:3
“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."
Their entire temple system and religious authority structure was corrupted and illegal based upon the laws of Moses. They had simple Levites (2 of them) as High Priests in a position that could only be legally filled by a descendent of Aaron. This is a significant reason for the existence of the Essenes in the wilderness, they rejected the corruption of the Law that the Pharisees were promoting. They were externally participating in the rebellion of Korah mentioned in Jude. For the Pharisees to become consistent with the Law meant radical changes from the corrupt system they supported.
Finally, the teaching of the Pharisees, man's precepts taught as God's doctrines, this is what Jesus warned His disciples of. Jesus was never concerned that the Pharisees would teach the people to observe God's law too thoroughly. The problem was that they substituted their laws for Gods. Matthew 16:6 gives us this explicit warning.
And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” ...But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
The Pharisee's righteousness was only something that was constructed by men for men. Those that considered them to be righteous were taught by them that their own standards, the traditions of the elders and man's precepts, defined who was really righteous. They convinced their followers that their traditions were actually moreimportant than God's written laws. This is the only reason that they apeared righteous before the men that folloed them.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. “So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."
The Pharisees legalistically focussed on the law and missed the spirit of the law, not having a relationship with Jesus.
It's not that they didn't know scripture, it's that they misinterpreted it, missing the relationship by myopically focussing on technique and all the additional requirements they put on it.
They also sat in judgement on others.... and eventually killed the one who could free them from their bitter hatred and spitefulness.
I'm glad they don't have that kind of power today.
When the only message you have is negative, people will leave in droves.
| | Back to Top | | |
| 58 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 12:31 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|