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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 7:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's an ouija board verse:
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
graven image
Graven \Grav"en\, p. p. of Grave, v. t. Carved.
Graven image, an idol; an object of worship carved from wood, stone, etc. ``Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.'' --Ex. xx. 4.
An object.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | The whole passage:
quote:
Exodus 20:
4Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, 6and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
As Francis Schaeffer used to point out, God DID command the creation of some "graven images" for the temple. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Here's an ouija board verse:
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
graven image
Graven \Grav"en\, p. p. of Grave, v. t. Carved.
Graven image, an idol; an object of worship carved from wood, stone, etc. ``Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.'' --Ex. xx. 4.
An object.
I was not understanding that the ouija board was being worshipped or was an object of worship. I understand that it is used to communicate with spirits or to seek guidance. Do you consider seeking guidance "worship" and consider it an object of worship? The verse that you quote refers to a carved image in the likeness of a created being, like a calf, bull, or demon. What created being is the ouija board an image of?
We are commanded in the New Testament not to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Would you consider that there are those that might sacrifice to a ouija board? I am aware of many that would sacrifice and worship graven images but worshipping a ouija board seems to go to far for me. While I agree with the verse, I question your application of it to a ouija board and it seems that this verse would be a weak defence of your position.
What is the difference between casting lots and a ouija board in your opinion? What I mean, is there a difference in essence between casting lots/ouija? Gods definitely used lots for guidance. Kings were chosen by lot. People could be selected for death and judgment by lot. The entire land of Israel and the inheritance of the 12 tribes was decided by lot. The comments that you spoke of from Francis Shaeffer seem to support the premise regarding God commanding only specific ordained means. Though carved images as objects of worship were illegal, God commanded the creation of the mercy with 2 cherubim. Even in this example, however, cherubim were legal, because they were never worshipped as God. God came and was between them. I maintain that graven images made by those with pure sincere hearts seeking God, these are sinful and damned - definitely not legal. What is more, legal graven images such as the serpant that Moses made in the wilderness can also become "illegal" if they are not dealt with according to God's ordinances. A pure heart would not justify looking for God in the serpant Moses made. When it was used lawfully, it was a means of healing.
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
2 Kings 18:3
"He did right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father David had done. He removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan. He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him. For he clung to the LORD; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the LORD had commanded Moses."
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Here's an ouija board verse:
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
graven image
Graven \Grav"en\, p. p. of Grave, v. t. Carved.
Graven image, an idol; an object of worship carved from wood, stone, etc. ``Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.'' --Ex. xx. 4.
An object.
What is the difference between casting lots and a ouija board in your opinion?
The only casting of lots I know of in scripture are:
1. the pagan sailors casting lots to see who's responsible for the storm in the book of Jonah, the prophet of God (remember him?)
2: the casting of lots for the apostle who's never heard from again
quote:
The comments that you spoke of from Francis Shaeffer
I never quoted Francis Shaeffer.
Using an ouija board is using an object as a medium to communicate with the dead in order to receive guidance about the future.
It uses:
1. objects (corpses, entrails, bones, sorcerer's tools)
2. mediums (as opposed to direct access to God [priesthood of the saints])
3. requesting information about what is not knowable
The bronze serpent wasn't being used as a medium to communicate with the dead in order to learn the future.
But, the bronze serpent WAS useful as a HEALING IMAGE. Healing images must be O.K. Right grandma? Right red airplane? Healing images are acceptable according to scripture. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
I never quoted Francis Shaeffer.
I did: "As Francis Schaeffer used to point out, God DID command the creation of some "graven images" for the temple." | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Swan Lake says,
"The only casting of lots I know of in scripture are:
1. the pagan sailors casting lots to see who's responsible for the storm in the book of Jonah, the prophet of God (remember him?)
2: the casting of lots for the apostle who's never heard from again"
Let me help you.
Lev. 16:8
8“Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the £scapegoat. 9“Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering. 10“But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.
Josh 18:6
6“You shall describe the land in seven divisions, and bring the description here to me. I will cast lots for you here before the LORD our God. 7“For the Levites have no portion among you, because the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance. Gad and Reuben and the half-tribe of Manasseh also have received their inheritance eastward beyond the Jordan, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.”
1 Samuel 14:42
42Saul said, “Cast lots between me and Jonathan my son.” And Jonathan was taken.
1 Chron 24:31
31These also cast lots just as their relatives the sons of Aaron in the presence of David the king, Zadok, Ahimelech, and the heads of the fathers’ households of the priests and of the Levites—the head of fathers’ households as well as those of his younger brother.
Josh 7:14
14‘In the morning then you shall come near by your tribes. And it shall be that the tribe which the LORD takes by lot shall come near by families, and the family which the LORD takes shall come near by households, and the household which the LORD takes shall come near man by man. 15‘It shall be that the one who is taken with the things under the ban shall be burned with fire, he and all that belongs to him, because he has transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he has committed a disgraceful thing in Israel.’”
1 Sam 10:20
20Thus Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot. 21Then he brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its families, and the Matrite family was taken. And Saul the son of Kish was taken; but when they looked for him, he could not be found. 22Therefore they inquired further of the LORD, “Has the man come here yet?” So the LORD said, “Behold, he is hiding himself by the baggage.” 23So they ran and took him from there, and when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward. 24Samuel said to all the people, “Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen? Surely there is no one like him among all the people.” So all the people shouted and said, “Long live the king!”
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
The bronze serpent wasn't being used as a medium to communicate with the dead in order to learn the future.
But, the bronze serpent WAS useful as a HEALING IMAGE. Healing images must be O.K. Right, grandma? Right, red airplane? Healing images are acceptable, according to scripture.
O.K. thanks for the verses about casting lots. Not sure what your point is, though.
I'm happy with the acceptance of HEALING IMAGES. 
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
The bronze serpent wasn't being used as a medium to communicate with the dead in order to learn the future.
But, the bronze serpent WAS useful as a HEALING IMAGE. Healing images must be O.K. Right, grandma? Right, red airplane? Healing images are acceptable, according to scripture.
A healing image specifically ordained by God through his prophet Moses would be acceptable, this would be a "means" that God would bring healing to us. I do not believe that the words of Dr. Boyd carry the same authority as those of scripture or Moses. Interesting, even this "image" was not used according to the ordinance of God and caused Israel to stumble. The people were not content to serve God as He had commanded but they chose error regarding even this appointed means. Regarding "healing," we do find a specific "means" for healing that God has given to us in the New Testament in James 5. I believe that obeying this "ordinance" would be a righteous way to approach God for our healing.
"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed."
Spen Lake
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