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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/10/2004 11:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | Premise: Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined. Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God.
Do the means and methods matter? Can we call upon and worship God by any means we desire and certainly find Him?
Examples from the OT.
The scriptures below list several examples of men that sincerely sought to serve God but, for various reasons, one being ignorance, they attempted to use their own means and methods. The result was death (often spectacular supernatural judgmental death to serve as an example) of severe judgment such as instant leprosy.
We see the first example of attempting to serve the Lord according to our own means with Cain. God has no regard for such offerings.
Genesis 4:3
So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground. Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
In the second example the legitimate priests attempt to deviate from the ordained means and are struck dead. Aaron is not even allowed to mourn for them. God made this example to indicate that it actually an unholy blasphemous act worthy of death to attempt to serve Him by our own means, however sincerely.
Leviticus 10:1
Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the LORD spoke, saying,
‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored.’”
In the third example, David and all of Israel are sincerely seeking God and bringing the embodiment of His covenant to Jerusalem. They are joyful, glad and celebrating the arrival of the true God and yet, because they didn’t follow His ordained means, God killed David’s man and was angry with them. God took His means seriously enough to kill men who didn’t follow them, regardless of their “sincerity” and even though they acted in ignorance.
2 Samuel 6:4
So they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Ahio was walking ahead of the ark. Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.
But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.
In the fourth example, we are told of a king who did right in the sight of God, that God prospered Him, and who sought the Lord. When this same king attempted to enter the temple and offer incense to God he is described as “acting corruptly,” and being “unfaithful to the Lord.” God struck him down with slow death, leprosy, that excluded him forever from the house of the Lord. Creating our own means, even if we are sincere and seeking to serve God, can result in corruption and unfaithfulness. As the king in this example, when God’s voice attempts to bring correction, we may simply respond with anger and rage instead of submitting to the means God has established.
2 Chron 16:3
Uzziah was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Jechiliah of Jerusalem. He did right in the sight of the LORD according to all that his father Amaziah had done. He continued to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding through the vision of God; and as long as he sought the LORD, God prospered him....But when he became strong, his heart was so proud that he acted corruptly, and he was unfaithful to the LORD his God, for he entered the temple of the LORD to burn incense on the altar of incense. Then Azariah the priest entered after him and with him eighty priests of the LORD, valiant men. 18They opposed Uzziah the king and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the LORD, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have been unfaithful and will have no honor from the LORD God.” But Uzziah, with a censer in his hand for burning incense, was enraged; and while he was enraged with the priests, the leprosy broke out on his forehead before the priests in the house of the LORD, beside the altar of incense. Azariah the chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and behold, he was leprous on his forehead; and they hurried him out of there, and he himself also hastened to get out because the LORD had smitten him. King Uzziah was a leper to the day of his death.
In the fifth example we have an example of a Levite that wants the priesthood to serve God. God states that he is “gathered against the Lord.” God’s response is to make an example with a new and unique “death” for an example for all Israel forever.
Korah tells Moses, “You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?” Moses responds to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi, is it not enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister to them; and that He has brought you near, Korah, and all your brothers, sons of Levi, with you? And are you seeking for the priesthood also. Therefore you and all your company are gathered together against the LORD.
Numbers 16:28
Moses said, “By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing. “If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. “But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD.”
As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. All Israel who were around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth may swallow us up!” Fire also came forth from the LORD and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering the incense.
Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Say to Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, that he shall take up the censers out of the midst of the blaze, for they are holy; and you scatter the burning coals abroad. “As for the censers of these men who have sinned at the cost of their lives, let them be made into hammered sheets for a plating of the altar, since they did present them before the LORD and they are holy; and they shall be for a sign to the sons of Israel.” So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers which the men who were burned had offered, and they hammered them out as a plating for the altar, as a reminder to the sons of Israel that no layman who is not of the descendants of Aaron should come near to burn incense before the LORD; so that he will not become like Korah and his company—just as the LORD had spoken to him through Moses.
The result was that the censers of Korah were beaten into plating for the altar, “as a reminder to the sons of Israel that no layman who is not of the descendants of Aaron should come near to burn incense before the LORD; so that he will not become like Korah and his company.” It is amazing that this is exactly what had happened in the temple of Jesus’ first coming. This exact situation had occurred in the temple and the Jewish religious authorities. The Maccabees and the chief priests of that temple were not descendents of Aaron and had become participants in the rebellion of Korah! Although God did not immediately judge them for their actions as He did with Korah when made an example, they were still just as wrong. Instead of opposing Moses, they opposed the very Son of God. The condemnation of Jude seems to become clearer and addressing this point. It even directly applies to the Jewish priesthood of his time. “For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.”
Way of Cain: Creating their own means and rejecting the means that God had given.
Error of Balaam: Divination for pay
Rebellion of Korah: Rejecting God’s means and claiming that every one of them of the congregation is holy, the Lord is in their midst, and desiring to be priests.
Lastly, if we look at the passage regarding false prophets in Matthew 7:21 we see that these men were sincerely serving another “Jesus” when they thought they were serving the real one. It is obvious that they were not experiencing the real Jesus even though they did miracles in His name. He tells them that He never knew them and thus they had not really experienced Him. He casts them away as being those who did not follow His ordinances and means. Thus they had sincerely served and experienced another Jesus and were damned.
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Spen Lake
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/10/2004 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Repent. Believe. Be baptized.
Then read scripture, pray, participate in church.
And practice discipleship.
Repent often. Accept God's mercy.
Show love.
Die in the Lord. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/10/2004 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his compainions, how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? Or have you not read the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabboth and are innocent?
With what shall I come to the Lord
And bow myself before the God on high?
Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings,
With yearling calves?
Does the Lord take delight in thousands of rams,
In ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts,
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?
Our hearts are to be strictly pure in Christ. The way that we worship flows from that. Observing the Sabbath just right or performing the perfect act of worship doesn't matter. If offering fruit was an act of worship from the heart for Cain, then God would have "had regard" for him and his offering too. The Pharisees got the act right but the heart wrong. If they had the right heart, any act would be good.
Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/10/2004 9:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Repent. Believe. Be baptized.
Then read scripture, pray, participate in church.
And practice discipleship.
Repent often. Accept God's mercy.
Show love.
Die in the Lord.
POW, I think you need to write a book. It would be one page with what you just said with emphasis on repenting and dying in the Lord. And I have just the title for you...You should call it The Purpose Driven Life!
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/10/2004 10:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahidquote:
Our hearts are to be strictly pure in Christ. The way that we worship flows from that
That's right! Spenlake, God isn't concerned primarily with the means otherwise the Pharisee's would have been right in Jesus' eyes. We can serve God with selfish motives or we can serve God with a pure heart but the means in which we serve God matter less than the heart by which we do so. We can do an act totally "right" but if our HEARTS aren't acting in LOVE it is meaningless. If our hearts are pure in Christ then our worship and sacrifice will be a sweet smelling offering. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/11/2004 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Sahidquote:
Our hearts are to be strictly pure in Christ. The way that we worship flows from that
That's right! Spenlake, God isn't concerned primarily with the means otherwise the Pharisee's would have been right in Jesus' eyes. We can serve God with selfish motives or we can serve God with a pure heart but the means in which we serve God matter less than the heart by which we do so. We can do an act totally "right" but if our HEARTS aren't acting in LOVE it is meaningless. If our hearts are pure in Christ then our worship and sacrifice will be a sweet smelling offering.
The Pharisees were not condemned for keeping God's law too purely. They were condemned for placing their mean (traditions and precepts) as more important that God's ordained and written means. They were not TOO righteous but they were lawless because they made their own law more important that God's law.
Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and scribes came* to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? “For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” he is not to honor his father or his mother£.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”
The Pharisees were to be obeyed when they taught the written word of God. They were not to be copied because they did NOT obey God's words but their own ideas.
Matthew 23
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Matthew 5 shows Jesus taking the Law and making more severe. He applies it not ONLY externally but internally. It is on this basis that the Pharisees were especially exposed.
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be £liable to the court.’ “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before £the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I maintain that God is concerned about the means. What does Matthew 7:21 mean if He doesn't care about the means? The content of the gospel is defined in the act of God, not "our" love or our perceptions. In this is love, not that we loved Him but that He loved us and gave HImself up for us. His action defined love and this is embodied in the gospel and His death on the cross, physically.
If the means are not important, then "love" is no longer defined but a freestyle feeling. We become our own point of reference and every man does what is right in his own eyes.
I appreciate the post by POW. It is a summary of the biblical means that God has defined for salvation and for growing in grace and knowledge of God.
Spen Lake
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/11/2004 3:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen-
You are one persistent hard-headed nut to break!
TGB | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/11/2004 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | You got some excellant points there Spen! just because the majority do not agree with you doesn't mean you ain't right. I hear a lot of talk that amounts to opinion. Can I hear some scripture from those who disagree.
From my own view, I think a lot of Christians think God's just gonna take what we give out because hes God and has to 'cause he loves us (that whole mercy thing!) I disagree. God has his limits, even with his "children." | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/12/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Hi spenlake,
Do you have any idea what Jesus meant by "other sheep" ?
John
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Just asking, I don't think I have ever heard a satisfactory explaination of this verse.
peace, don
I believe that this refers to the Gentiles who were to be reconciled to God with the same means that the Jews were reconciled to God, by believing in the Gospel. Jesus’ message was first to the Jews, and even though there were first fruits and “crumbs from the table” that were given – the message of the Gospel hadn’t been proclaimed to the Gentiles yet. Until Jesus, salvation was with the Jews alone.
Ephesians 2:11 seems to clarify the passage from John that you cite and speaks of those “without hope and without God” who were “far off” being brought into one man with those who were near.
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Think of Cornelius, the first Gentile to whom the Apostles preached the gospel. Listen to how the scriptures describe him: “a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.” Was he “saved” before Peter preached the gospel to him? Until our sins are forgiven by God, I belive that we are not reconciled to Him and saved. In Acts 10:42 we see Peter claim, “He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” The Spirit “fell upon all those who were listening to the message.” And we see in Acts 11:1, 18, “Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God….Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” To me, this seems to confirm that until COrnelius and the Gentiles believed in the message of the gospel that was preached to them, they were not reconciled to God - no matter how pious, noble, and sincere.
The Gentiles, who were not previously “of His fold” were granted the repentance which leads to life through the same means as the Jews, believing the message of the gospel. These other sheep, together with the Jews who believe, form one flock. The message and means, however, is identical. Paul has extremely strong words to those who would distort the “means,” even through spiritual or supernatural presentations. He condemns them to eternal damnation. This is what the proclamation of “Let them be accursed” means. Those are very strong words.
Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
This is my interpretation of the meaning of the “other sheep” – that they are the Gentiles and that the Shepherd, His voice, and the means of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is identical.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/12/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Those who stray from the ordained means and distort the means are cursed by Paul, meaning that he condemns them to damnation!
LOL
I'd LOVE to have heard your wedding vows..... 
If you don't like Paul's written words, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" perhaps Paul's command from 1 Cor 14:37 applies? "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he £is not recognized."
I am not claiming that I understand the "means" fully or that I have no error in that understanding that I have. I do believe, however, that the words of Paul regarding distorting the gospel and the means that God has ordained is valid and should cause us to be cautious about claims that we make. Gratefully, it is an omniscient God that is just and true, and who died for us, who will judge and not me or some other "mere man." God has the sword of judgment reserved for His return. I believe, however, that He will use it and that there will be some who really will be accursed. There will be "MANY" who will claim that they are serving Him as Lord, as we see in Matthew 7:21, but they will be damned forever because they were lawless and did not follow His ordinances and means. He never even knew them.
God help me and all other men to listen to His voice and heed His means.
Spen Lake
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/12/2004 4:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sahid
The Pharisees got the act right but the heart wrong. If they had the right heart, any act would be good.
Surely you cannot mean how i might take this. For there are MANY acts that a man can do that will never be right according to God no matter how sincere and loving the man may seem to be in his heart.
Also according to Christ they did not have their act right.
John 7:19 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Our heart is only right when it is filled with the accurate knowledge of God’s word to the point where we obey it.
Psl. 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Deut . 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him:
That is how one’s “heart” is “right” with GOD, by observing his Written Word to do all he commands us through his son Jesus Christ, just as they were to observe to do all things he commanded them beforetime through Moses.
Prov. 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
Jer. 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Ezek. 33:And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Zec. 7:Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Rom. 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
To God the means by which we worship him clearly matters, as well as every word and every ACT. For our worship is to be in spirit and in TRUTH, and that TRUTH is according to his written standards.
This statement made by Spen is profoundly true and accurate:
"Calling on God and His name must be done according to the methods and means that He has explicitly defined (in his WRITTEN WORD). Failure to do so may result in worshipping other gods while sincerely believing that it is the true God.
Many people think that because someone "meant well", that their "heart is right". Meaning well or being sincere is not having a right heart. Only knowing and having the Word of God in your heart, with an accurate knowledge and application of the truth gives anyone a truly right heart. Having a "right heart" is also not dependent upon how I FEEL about anything, just as LOVE is not dependent upon how I FEEL but upon doing the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ, as are stated and taught clearly in the written Word. Only then as we abide in and learn his Word, and his words abide in us, as we DO them, do we have a "right heart" and do we only then worship the true God.
In the love of Christ,
Larris
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/12/2004 5:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Many people think that because someone "meant well", that their "heart is right". Meaning well or being sincere is not having a right heart. Only knowing and having the Word of God in your heart, with an accurate knowledge and application of the truth gives anyone a truly right heart. Having a "right heart" is also not dependent upon how I FEEL about anything, just as LOVE is not dependent upon how I FEEL but upon doing the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ, as are stated and taught clearly in the written Word. Only then as we abide in and learn his Word, and his words abide in us, as we DO them, do we have a "right heart" and do we only then worship the true God.
In the love of Christ,
Larris
This is what I believe that the scriptures tells us. Love has content and must be expressed according to God's ordained means. Physical human love that is not expressed according to God's ordained means is not pleasing to God but "fornication." Physical human love that is expressed according to God's ordinances is called "marriage" and God call the marriage bed blessed. The "heart" is not what is critical in this case. Sincerity or noble motives are not an acceptable excuse for fornication anymore than they are for seeking God. Seeking God outside His ordained means IS spiritual fornication and this is what Israel was condemned for. Relationship with God is according to His means or it isn't acceptable to Him, no matter what condition of our "heart." The heart that is acceptable to God approaches Him on His means, or is rejected and condemned as we see in Matthew 7:21.
Spen Lake
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/12/2004 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen
It's unclear to me what means and methods you are speaking of specifically. For example they had this discussion in Jerusalem a couple of thousand years ago and they came up with the following requirements:
quote:
Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
The above account is possibly outside of your means and methods, I don't know.
I am sure you are not referring to circumcision and the law of Moses?
So are you referring to abstaining from meats offered to idols, blood, and things strangled, and from fornication?
All of your scripture quotations I believe most affirm on this board but I think it is how you understand what is said and how you frame the questions of your perceived deviations that leave me wondering what you are meaning specifically. Other than you disagreement with Seeing is Believing is it baptism in water you consider a means or method? If we aren't immersed in water we are not in the family of God? Are you a Seventh Day Aventist? Is the Sabbath a requirement to you in order to be saved?
Taking communion, is that a means and method you perceive as essecial in order to be saved? Just trying to get a handle on what exactly you mean.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/12/2004 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rsirkel
Spen
It's unclear to me what means and methods you are speaking of specifically. For example they had this discussion in Jerusalem a couple of thousand years ago and they came up with the following requirements:
quote:
Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
The above account is possibly outside of your means and methods, I don't know.
I am sure you are not referring to circumcision and the law of Moses?
So are you referring to abstaining from meats offered to idols, blood, and things strangled, and from fornication?
All of your scripture quotations I believe most affirm on this board but I think it is how you understand what is said and how you frame the questions of your perceived deviations that leave me wondering what you are meaning specifically. Other than you disagreement with Seeing is Believing is it baptism in water you consider a means or method? If we aren't immersed in water we are not in the family of God? Are you a Seventh Day Aventist? Is the Sabbath a requirement to you in order to be saved?
Taking communion, is that a means and method you perceive as essecial in order to be saved? Just trying to get a handle on what exactly you mean.
Peace
Ron
The "prohibitions" of "abstaining from meats offered to idols, blood, and things strangled, and from fornication" are not the "means" but what the Apostles decided to impose on the Gentile concerts. Abstaining from these things did not make one "saved" from damnation, although those who "practiced" these things would be damned. 1 Cor 6:9 states, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." Rev 21:8 also says, "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I believe that the "means" is the gospel and believing in the gospel. This is expressed in various ways defined in scripture.
POW presented a good overview of biblical means earlier in this post. We are commanded to observe the means of God and even these must be observed in accordance to the way He has commanded. Look at 1 Cor 11:27. Here we have the Apostle Paul state that there are those in the church who have physically died in judgment because they have observed communion in an "unworthy manner." Communion is a means but it must be observed according to the ordinance of God to be effective. The Word must be believed and obeyed in faith. Simply hearing Word will not save any more than experiencing the act of baptism or communion will save - they means must be united with faith and belived. We are not allowed to seek and approach God in freestyle spiritual experiences. We may find spirits but God has commanded that those who will find Him must approach Him according to His means and methods.
The theme of this thread is a biblical answer to the question, "Is a sincere heart and a genuine desire for God enough when we seek Him." I have given many examples in which sincerity and a desire for God that was pursued outside His means led to judgment, not salvation. I have read many response on this board justify actions and beliefs because they felt good, brought perceived healings, or produced spiritual experiences that they believed were Jesus. Do the scriptures support this conclusion? Could the "deluding influence" that 2 Thess tells us God will send come in the form of "perceived healings," good feelings, and spiritual experiences that claim they are God and the Holy Spirit?
I believe that the passages are strong and persuasive that the means, not just sincerity and a "good" heart, are fundamental and necessary to approach God and not a delusion.
Spen Lake
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/12/2004 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Acts 17, Paul at Mars Hill, by means of the pagan Epimenides, leads some to Christ.
http://www.leaderu.com/marshill/mhr01/cmas1.html
Acts 17:16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.
18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, "What would this idle babbler wish to say?" Others, "He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,"--because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.
19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
20 "For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; so we want to know what these things mean."
21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."
33 So Paul went out of their midst.
34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/12/2004 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
Acts 17, Paul at Mars Hill, by means of the pagan Epimenides, leads some to Christ.
http://www.leaderu.com/marshill/mhr01/cmas1.html
Acts 17:16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.
18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, "What would this idle babbler wish to say?" Others, "He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,"--because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.
19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
20 "For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; so we want to know what these things mean."
21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."
33 So Paul went out of their midst.
34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
Wonderful. Paul preaches the gospel and the fact that Jesus was raised bodily from the dead, proof that His claim to be God's Christ and speak His words, and that He is going to judge the whole world. Some men listen and believe, escaping this coming judgment that Paul has spoken of. They find freedom and life as they believed in the gospel preached by Paul.
Spen Lake
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