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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/13/2003 1:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | The question was asked in another thread, why would a perfect, unneedy God create us anyway? God lacks for nothing, he IS love, he doesn't NEED love.
Then once having created us, why does he require anything at all from us? It was said why does God require worship, obedience, and the love of his creations?
I admit I'm having a hard time getting my mind around this myself. It does seem that God, from all eternity before he created mankind, was fine, was perfect, etc. There must have been some reason why he decided to create mankind. And then why does he demand his creations' allegiance? Why does he need it or even care? What is the worth of mankind's love that God is so desperate for it?
I think of kind of a Frankenstein's monster story. The monster was created by Frankenstein. Would it make sense then for Frankenstein to demand that the monster worship him- demand that the monster choose to love him- and if not, then eternally punish the monster( either literally or figuratively) in hell? What would we make of Frankenstein for doing that? Is that moral? Or wouldn't we say to him - why did you even bother to create this monster if you are going to demand so many things of it, and when it doesn't worship you, you are going to consign it to hell. And since you didn't NEED to have the monster exist in the first place, it's even worse then to go ahead and create it, covet its loyalty and obedience, and punish it when it doesn't follow you correctly.
This is admittedly edging on the esoteric - but it is an interesting thought - a thought that seems to hurt my brain if i think about it too much... | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 8/14/2003 12:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Rev 4:11 . . . for thy pleasure they are and were created.
THE PENITENCE OF OUR FOREFATHER ADAM
Discovery of Expulsion
1.1 It came to pass, when Adam went forth from the Garden with his wife, outside, to the east of the Garden, they made themselves a hut to live in and went inside. Their tears fell ceaselessly and they spent their days in unison of mind, weeping and saddened, and they said to one another, "We are far from life."
2.1 Then, after seven days, they grew hungry and looked for food.
2.2 Eve said to Adam. "My lord, I am hungry. Arise, seek food so that we may live and know that God is going to come and bring us to the Garden, to our place."
3.1 They arose and went about upon the earth, and they did not find food like the food by which they had been nourished in the Garden.
3.2 Eve said to Adam, "I am dying of this hunger. It would be better if I were dead, my lord; perhaps then they would bring you into the Garden, for because of me God is angry." I Adam said, "Great wrath has come upon us, I know not whether because of you or because of me." Eve said to him, "Kill me if you wish, so that the wrath and anger may abate from before you--for this has come about because of me-- and they will bring you into the Garden."
3.3 Adam said to her. "Eve, do not even mention this matter; lest God bring upon us even greater evils and we become contemptible. How, indeed, can I do you any evil, for you are my body'?" Eve said, "Arise, so that we may seek vegetable food."
4.1 They sought and they did not find vegetable sustenance like that which was in the Garden.
4.2 Eve said, "... because God established this vegetable food as food for the beasts that they might eat on the earth, but our food is that which the angels eat.
4.3 Arise, let us repent for forty days; perhaps God will pity us and give us food which is better than that of the beasts so that we should not become like them."
Penitence and Second Temptation
5.1 Adam said to Eve, "In what fashion will you repent? How many days can you endure toils? Perhaps you will begin and be unable to repent, and God will not hearken,
5.2 so that we will not be able to keep that which we originally received."
5.3 Eve said, "Set me the number of days which I might think to repent; perhaps the days will be too long--for I brought this penitence upon you."
6.1 Adam said, "You cannot endure the same number of days as I, but do what I tell you and abide by this instruction."--Adam said, "I shall be in penitence for forty days, six days more than you, because you were created on the sixth day of those upon which he accepted his works. Now, therefore, arise, go to the Tigris River and take a stone and place it under your feet and stand in the water up to your neck, in your clothes. Let no word of supplication to God escape your mouth, for we are unworthy of soul and our lips are impure and unclean, because of the transgressions which we committed in the Garden when we ate of the tree.
6.2 Stand silent there in the middle of the water until you have done penitence for thirty four days, and I will be in the Jordan River, until we learn that, behold, God has hearkened to us and will give us our food."
7.1 Then Eve went to the Tigris and did as Adam had instructed her,
7.2 and Adam went to the Jordan. And the hair of his head was uncovered.
8.1 He prayed and said, "I say to you, waters of Jordan, be fellow sufferers for me and assemble all the moving things, which are in you, and let them surround me and bewail me,
8.2 not for their own sakes, but for mine. Because God did not withhold their food from them, which God appointed from the beginning, but I have been withheld from my food and from life."
8.3 When Adam said that, all moving things which were in the Jordan gathered to him and stood around him like a wall. And the waters of the Jordan stopped at that time and became stationary from their flow. Adam cried to God and he set apart six hundred orders of them to call to God in prayers all the days.
9.1 When eighteen days of their weeping were completed, then Satan took on the form of a cherub with splendid attire, and went to the Tigris River to deceive Eve.
9.2 Her tears were falling on her attire, down to the ground . Satan said to Eve, "Come forth from the water and rest, for God has hearkened to your penitence, to you and Adam your husband.
9.3 Because we beseeched God,
9.4 God sent me to lead you forth from there and to give you your food, on account of which you repented.
9.5 Since just now I went to Adam and he sent me to you and said, 'Go, son, summon my wife', now come, let us go to Adam and I will lead you to the place where your food is."
10.1 When Eve came forth from the water, her flesh was like withered grass, for her flesh had been changed from the water, but the form of her glory remained brilliant.
10.2 When she came forth from the water she fell down and remained upon the ground in great distress for two days, for she was quite unable to move from the spot. Then she arose and Satan also led her to where Adam was.
10.3 When Adam saw Satan and Eve who was following him, he wept loudly and called out with a great voice and said to Eve, 'Where is my command of repentance, which I gave you'? How did you go astray, to follow him by whom we were alienated from our dwelling'?"
11.1 When Eve heard this, she knew that he who deceived her was Satan; she fell down before Adam. From that time Adam's distress increased twofold when he saw the sufferings of his wife, for she was overcome and fell like one dead.
11.2 He was sad and called out great lamentation and said to Satan, "Why have you engaged in such a great conflict with us? What are our sins against you, that you have brought us out of our place?
11.3 Did we take your glory from you? Did we reject you from being our possession, that you fight against us unnecessarily?"
Fall of Satan
12.1 Satan also wept loudly and said to Adam. "All my arrogance and sorrow came to pass because of you; for, because of you I went forth from my dwelling; and because of you I was alienated from the throne of the cherubs who, having spread out a shelter, used to enclose me; because of you my feet have trodden the earth."
12.2 Adam replied and said to him,
12.3 "What are our sins against you, that you did all this to us?"
13.1 Satan replied and said, "You did nothing to me, but I came to this measure because of you, on the day on which you were created, for I went forth on that day.
13.2 When God breathed his spirit into you, you received the likeness of his image. Thereupon, Michael came and made you bow down before God. God said to Michael, 'Behold I have made Adam in the likeness of my image.'
14.1 Then Michael summoned all the angels and God said to them, 'Come, bow down to god whom I made.'
14.2 Michael bowed first. He called me and said. 'You too, bow down to Adam.'
14.3 I said, 'Go away, Michael! I shall not bow down to him, who is posterior to me, for I am former. Why is it proper for me to bow down to him?'
15.1 The other angels, too, who were with me, heard this, and my words seemed pleasing to them and they did not prostrate themselves to you, Adam.
16.1 Thereupon, God became angry with me and commanded to expel us from our dwelling and to cast me and my angels, who were in agreement with me, to the earth; and you were at the same time in the Garden.
16.2 When I realized that because of you I had gone forth from the dwelling of light and was in sorrows and pains,
16.3 then I prepared a trap for you, so that I might alienate you from your happiness just as I, too, had been alienated because of you."
17.1 When Adam heard this, he said to the Lord, 'Lord, my soul is in your hand. Make this enemy of mine distant from me, who desires to lead me astray, I who am searching for the light that I have lost."
17.2 At that time Satan passed away from him.
17.3 Adam stood from then on in the waters of repentance, and Eve remained fallen upon the ground for three days, like one dead. Then, after three days, she arose from the earth . . .
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/14/2003 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Recognizing how awesome it is to be able to think, to love, to give, to participate, to rejoice, to live forever, I, too, would want to create beings that could experience, within the same context of "made in my image," what I experience.
Among the many things our being made in the image of God says, it says something about why God made us; to give someone else the pleasure of experiencing what God experiences in and of Himself. The ability to create someone who can appreciate life--everlasting life in a context of experience and expression in all of its currently known capacities--the way God does is why He created us.
God is perfect and complete in logic, love, emotions, feelings, giving, etc., but just because He's perfect and complete in these characteristics is no reason to remove Him from the "other" perfections and completions He has, which, along with the first series of characteristics, we also reflect: the desire to create, to share the results with others, to have others participate in our creations, to participate in others' creations. For some reason, though, the thought immediately comes to mind that God can't possibly desire these kinds of things (since He has no needs) or ... something must be wrong. Not at all. That we reflect all these characteristics IS because He reflects these characteristics. It's not about God not having needs. It's about God being who He is. God is no less God if He doesn't create us, anymore than I am no less human if I do not create (or do many other things); but neither is God any less God if He does create because He wants to share what it's like to be like Him, anymore than I am no less human if I want others to share in who I am, and vice versa.
I don't believe the human being is made so far removed from the image of God as he is from the full infinities of completeness (for lack of better words) God alone is in regard to this image: God is love; he doesn't have love in addition to who He is. God is desirable to have participants in what He does; He doesn't have those desires in addition to who He is. The same applies to us humans. We love and create, not because they are in addition to who we are, but because they are part of who we are, though not in the "weight" class God alone is in.
At least, that's how I see it.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/14/2003 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/14/2003 5:15 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/14/2003 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | I have no compass to share. I am simply a lost wandering soul.
"Not all who are wander are lost." Tolkien | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/14/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman, I like your answer. HOwever you didn't touch on the issue of eternal punishment. And might-be-don, it's fine if you don't like the word "demand"- we can use some other word- but it's really undeniable that humans have obligations toward God. And those obligations exist in the form of "love your neighbor, love God, love your enemies," to name a few. The 10 commandments' basic moral law as well is an obligation.
And unless you are a universalist - you have to grapple with the issue of God's eternal punishment (again, whether it's literal punishment or just separation- either way, it's obviously a punishment).
And that's where the problem comes in...God choosing to create, when he didn't need to, but then also choosing to punish the vast majority of the creatures for eternity for rebelling against him.
And Tigree, I don't think the analogy of a parent choosing to have kids works again either. People AREN"T perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. People DO need things. They ARE needy. God is not. People (as a group) need to reproduce to propogate the species- we have strong biological drives to that effect. Not everyone chooses to reproduce, and some want to and can't, and of course we all know how many people are "unplanned" by their parents. This just isn't the same as the Almight choosing to create mankind in his own image out of dust. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/14/2003 7:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Starkman, I like your answer. HOwever you didn't touch on the issue of eternal punishment. And might-be-don, it's fine if you don't like the word "demand"- we can use some other word- but it's really undeniable that humans have obligations toward God. And those obligations exist in the form of "love your neighbor, love God, love your enemies," to name a few. The 10 commandments' basic moral law as well is an obligation.
And unless you are a universalist - you have to grapple with the issue of God's eternal punishment (again, whether it's literal punishment or just separation- either way, it's obviously a punishment).
And that's where the problem comes in...God choosing to create, when he didn't need to, but then also choosing to punish the vast majority of the creatures for eternity for rebelling against him.
And Tigree, I don't think the analogy of a parent choosing to have kids works again either. People AREN"T perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. People DO need things. They ARE needy. God is not. People (as a group) need to reproduce to propogate the species- we have strong biological drives to that effect. Not everyone chooses to reproduce, and some want to and can't, and of course we all know how many people are "unplanned" by their parents. This just isn't the same as the Almight choosing to create mankind in his own image out of dust.
What I'm saying is that God knew the risks and sacrifices but He chose to make them anyway because He knew life would be even better with us to share it with!
As for us being "punished" for not obeying Him. Well, hell is simply giving people who don't want anything to do with God, what they want. God is the source of life. So, it's better to obey Him in all things as that will allow us to live lives abundantly (to the fullest). So, I don't see it as the same as Frankenstein and his monster. As the Borg queen said to Data, "You are an imperfect being, created by an imperfect being." Frankenstein wasn't working from entirely self-less motives. But God does. He truly wants what's best for His creation and that is to obey His commands (which always is for the good and makes our lives abundant). The consequences of disobedience are simply the result of those actions - not direct punishment, except within certain instances where discipline is necessary to foster growth in the right direction.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/14/2003 5:33 PM (GMT -6) | | | Might be don - I really don't see what your problem is with authority. You, as an American (if indeed you are one) have duties and obligations to your country as an American citizen. You have duties and obligations to love and honor your parents (if you have them). If you have a wife and kids, you also have duties and obligations toward them. You seem to be arguing for a radical nihilism, where you as an individual being answer only to yourself - you have no outside duties or obligations. I really don't understand how a Christian could possibly argue that he or she owes no duties or obligations to God. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 8/15/2003 1:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Something from the history of mankind, honerman, not from any bible at all that I know of; there are many ancient text concerning the story of Adam and Eve to read, if you want to, just do a search.
Notice how in the short portion of the story I give, ReasonableDoubt, that Adam and Eve knew who disappointed God and why they were receiving the punishment of expulsion, people suffering the second death will be no different (failure of duty). Which is to say, might-be-don, might be answering your question . . .
Rev 4:11 . . . for thy pleasure they are and were created.
 I am Borg | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/15/2003 8:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | SOOO where exactly was it from, Tim? I was wondering whether or not you made it up. WHat book is it from? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/16/2003 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/16/2003 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Why did God create us?
Wow. I can't think of a more important question any person can ask. And to answer it, at least for me, is to answer other important questions by default. To affirm a specific purpose for God's creation of the world is to set set the course of one's life. It's to say yes to what one believes contributes to that purpose and no to what one believes undermines it.
Why do I think God created us?
To glorify and be enjoyed by God through receiving, enjoying, and giving away his love.
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 8/16/2003 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | | This is where I got it from, honorman,
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/anderson/vita/vita.html
The Life of Adam and Eve
This page contains a list of pericope titles for each of the narrative units of the Life of Adam and Eve or Vita Adam et Evae. These documents are all presented in English translation. After each pericope title one will find a set of references to the various language versions of the tale. The abbreviations for those versions are as follows:
ARM=Armenian, GEO=Georgian, GRE=Greek, LAT=Latin, SLA=Slavonic
Not every pericope can be found in each version. As a result, some of the pericopes listed below will not include a complete listing of all five versions.
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