quote:

---

VoteProLife
Neophyte
USA
1 Posts Posted - 11/02/2002 : 12:40:30 PM
------------------------------------
Many candidates for public office claim to serve the public, but ignore unborn children who are killed daily by abortion. These candidates speak glowingly of human rights, but ignore the right to life.

Some pro-abortion politicians defend their position by saying they have to represent all the people. The irony is that by allowing abortion, they fail to represent the people still living in the womb. Be sure you know where candidates stand on abortion.

Does a candidate's position on abortion matter in whether or not you vote for him or her? See what abortion looks like at www.priestsforlife.org/images. Then ask, "If a politician can't respect the life of a little baby, how is she supposed to respect yours?"

---

quote:

---

A priest-friend of mine pointed out that a local Orthodox for Pro-life" that wanted to use his parish hall was against abortion, but FOR the death penalty. His remark was: "Well, so much for 'pro-life."

---

I'm not saying that I am for the death penalty BUT there is a difference between an innocent victim and a victimizer, no?


ALL people are created with inalienable rights...
trosie

Welcome, VoteProLife!

quote:

---

I'm not saying that I am for the death penalty BUT there is a difference between an innocent victim and a victimizer, no?

---

quote:

---

I am really weary of pro-lifers being pro-death penalty; it is entirely hypocritical and logically inconsistent.

---

Well, perhaps not entirely hypocritical? Will you grant that these two cases are not completely identical? After all, we might drawn a distinction between killing in the interest of personal convenience versus killing as a means of punishment for capital crimes; one case involves the death of innocents, the other the death of the guilty. The latter is certainly not foreign to God's system of justice, while the former apparently is. After all, it was God who told Noah, "And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" (Gen 9:5-6). On the other hand, the shedding of innocent blood is repeatedly condemned.

Is it not clear that the taking of human life can accomplish different functions, some which are justified and others which are condemned? Is capital punishment completely equivalent to murder in your view?

Payaso

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins

quote:

---

I have yet to meet a living person who would have wanted their parents to exercise their right to abortion.

---

One comes to mind--Job.

Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde

quote:

---

Will you grant that these two cases are not completely identical?

---

Yes, I agree these cases are not identical, but I am not interested in the events surrounding the "cases," I am interested in another issue entirely in regards to the death penalty. My concern is over the fact that our secular State currently has the power to choose who will live and who will not. Our State currently has the authority to kill based on acts they deem worthy of death. I do not believe the State has the right to take away a human being's life and that they are "playing God" in doing so.

Additionally, I find it illogical that pro-lifers claim that all life is sacred and that we do not have the right to choose who lives or dies (before birth), yet they turn around and claim that the secular State has the right to take adult human life because of the actions committed by that person. I have yet to hear consistent logic on this one.

The proof texts used and lifted from the Old Testament to support the death penalty, texts that reflect the governance of Jewish culture under a Theocratic form of government several millenia ago and the subsequent direct application of such texts to the current
secular democratic American government is not convincing to me. I do not believe the Bible can be used and manipulated in such a way.

Payaso asked:

quote:

---

Is it not clear that the taking of human life can accomplish different functions, some which are justified and others which are condemned?

---

Certainly the taking of human life can accomplish different functions, that doesn't mean those functions are justifiable however.

quote:

---

Is capital punishment completely equivalent to murder in your view?

---

I believe capital punishment is more closely related to murder, it probably falls somewhere between an unjust form of punishment and murder in my mind. I would not say it is the "same" as murder of an innocent though, no. I think there is room for such distinctions.

Doc said:

quote:

---

Doc: LIFE is going on (cells multiplying etc.). The question is, is it PERSONHOOD.

---

That is better way to put it, thank you, that's helpful to my own thinking.

Doc said:

quote:

---

Doc: Ironically, the refusal to admit gradations in this area has caused an all-or-nothing mindset that keeps both sides from working TOGETHER to minimize abortions -- something almost everybody wants. For example, almost all pro-choice people are against "partial birth" abortions and even second and third trimester abortions. But they fear giving in to this because they think the pro-lifers will then take this to the bank and insist on outlawing the abortion pill.

---

Thank you! My sentiments exactly. We could work together if we would admit to gradations and be much more succesful at preventing abortions all around.

Doc said:

quote:

---

I should add that I am adamently pro-life in the sense that, if at all possible, we should make it feasible for a woman to go full term (not just protest her right to not go full term).

---

I absolutely agree with this. Thank you!! You rock Doc.

honorman said:

quote:

---

Regardless, I think those who lament the hypocrisy of those who are against abortion, yet for the death penalty simply are stereotyping the issues without looking deeply into each one seperately.

---

I have looked at both issues separately and very deeply and wrestled with them for years. I can say that before I wrestled with the issues I was both pro-life and pro-death penalty. It was looking into them more closely that caused me to change my mind.

~E




Edited by - Empiress on 11/03/2002 02:29:52 AM

quote:

---

Edited by - Empiress on 11/03/2002 02:28:35 AM

---

Late night, eh?

Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde

quote:

---

But POLITICALLY, the issue comes down not to what WE personally think the definition of human personhood is, but who we think SHOULD DECIDE when personhood begins. Should it be left to the mother, or not?

---

quote:

---

This wouldn't be an issue. All the rhetoric about a woman's "right to choose" goes away. Before brainwaves she has the choice to remove the fetus just like she would a mole or ingrown toenail. Afterwards, it's murder. Isn't that logically consistent?

---

I VOTE FOR YOU!

For those who are appealing to the brainwaves being the beginning of life just remember you were once that "thing???" without brainwaves floating within your mothers womb too!


Honorman

quote:

---

I have yet to meet a living person who would have wanted their parents to exercise their right to abortion. A complex issue. But of course...its always complex for those who wish to avoid the truth. The simple fact is that from conception an image of God forms...

---

Nicely put!


TGB

quote:

---

I'm not saying I'm for capital punishment either. I honestly struggle with it. I think my struggle is more with the uneven practice of it and the "mistakes" sometimes made (those put to death and later discovered to be innocent--how can we live with ourselves after THAT!). I'm not convinced however that the death penalty in principal is an immoral act for a State.

---

That's what concerns me too. We've all heard about cases where later it was found that the wrong person had been convicted of a crime they did NOT commit.


Peace and love!
trosie









Edited by - trosie on 11/03/2002 09:44:50 AM

quote:

---

For those who are appealing to the brainwaves being the beginning of life just remember you were once that "thing???" without brainwaves floating within your mothers womb too!

---

quote:

---

But POLITICALLY, the issue comes down not to what WE personally think the definition of human personhood is, but who we think SHOULD DECIDE when personhood begins. Should it be left to the mother, or not?

In the political arena, a middle ground has to be sought. We already do this in our rejection of the Roman law that said that a Father had the right to reject a child EVEN AFTER BIRTH. Public opinion has the right to veto any person who would want to terminate the life of their new born. And, in fact, we do it by in principle outlawing third term abortions.

The question is, where is the middle ground? In my estimation, it is the all-or-nothing mindset of both pro-lifers and pro-choicers that has kept us from arriving at what almost all intuitively feel is right. Personally, I think Empiress hit it. But, so long as the stalemate persists, neither side will lgrant it out of fear that the other side will use this concession to go to extremes.

---