 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
wise seeker
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 12/9/2002 2:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. Matthew 9:35
"The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. Matthew 11:5
These days Christendom is very confusing and seems to be full of splinter groups that appear to be cults and is losing members in large numbers. It’s a fact that in Roman Catholicism or Southern Baptists only about 25 percent of their members attend church on a regular basis and Word of Faith churches with their prosperity teachings are mushrooming in many places. It is fact that Pentecostal or Neo-Pentecostal Churches are growing at a faster rate all over the world then your typical nominal church. And in England Evangelical or nominal churches are dying breeds with Moslem temples outnumbering them! So what is the difference between your typical Evangelical Church and Word of faith Church? Is it doctrine, experience, or emotions that are the primary elements in these churches or is it another gospel as Paul talked about:
"Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
"Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' " Acts 20:29-35
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9
In order to examine the differences in Christendom we must have a baseline to measure everything against and to see where the difference are. Since the books of Acts is a historical record of the birth of the Church of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit it has to be the baseline to measure any other gospel against it. One cannot examine the book of Acts with out denying the facts that the Holy Spirit and Miracles, signs and wonders including tongues and emotional experiences were an integral part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the early church. The bible records:
"The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-He is Lord of all- "that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, "not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. "And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Acts 10:36-47
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. And there was great joy in that city. Acts 8:5-8
It cannot be denied that when the early church preached Christ to the masses miracles, healing and deliverance were an integral part of the gospel. People were literally saved, healed, delivered, blessed and prospered. The bible records:
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Acts 2:42-47
Wholeness, well being and prosperity of the individual is not a new concept but is an integral part of the true gospel of Jesus Christ who along with His disciples went about preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. It is safe to say that based on the Gospel and the book of Acts another gospel can be defined as any deviation from these truths and facts? So is being Evangelical preaching another gospel as miracles, signs and wonders are missing in the lives, hearts and churches of those who call themselves evangelicals?
Mind you while Evangelicals are lacking in experience and power they do have doctrines and creeds? It has been stated that "evangelical identity is found in fidelity to Scripture's authority and a shared participation in the converting experience of the gospel. As a result some have defined the Evangelical doctrine position to be that they believe:
1. The verbal, full inspiration and authority of the Scriptures.
2. God as a Trinity of three persons of one essence.
3. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, born of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
4. The Deity and personality of the Holy Spirit.
5. Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
6. The substitutionary death of Jesus Christ for our sins.
7. The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
8. The resurrection of the saved to eternal life, and everlasting punishment for the lost.
It’s is a fact that you can believe and adhere to all these doctrines and still not be made whole and prosperous or go to hell because the real miracle working Jesus is not your Lord!
The Word of Faith Churches with emphasis on faith confessions, miracles, signs and wonders have been accused of speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. But are the faith churches speaking perverse things or is it the others who are false and are preaching a different gospel? If we examine what Faith churches or Full Gospel churches believe and preach we will find there are some common elements:
1. Healing and prosperity are the will of God.
2. Miracles, signs and wonders are real and are for today.
3. God’s judgments and blessings are real and for today.
4. The Holy Spirit is alive and well and moving in the earth
5. The bible is the written word of God and can be trusted and acted upon.
6. Apostles, prophets, and the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased.
7. Jesus Christ is Lord.
8. The anointing is a tangible and transferable thing!
9. According to your faith so it shall be!
10. Go in and posses the land, not hold the fort until Jesus comes.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
SeanG
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/10/2002 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | |
Very quickly, as an example, the Southern Baptists aren’t necessarily losing members; they are merely not receiving new members into their fold as fast as the U. S. growth rate. So when you mention that some churches are growing faster than others, keep in mind that a smaller Pentecostal denomination may say their denomination grew by 63% and the Southern Baptists say their denomination grew by 15% (say, 13% under expectations), putting the Pentecostal church at a person gain of 1,500 as an example [63% gain], and the Southern Baptists gained 20,500 [a 15% gain]. Stats can be very tricky, and I highly recommend a book that partially deals with examples of such stats, it is by author and columnist Thomas Sowell and is entitled The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy. Mind you this book is not at all about religious matters, but it will help you grasp better the implications of throwing around stats that may not be too “scientific” as well as having built in parameters that churn out tampered, or wanted, percentages. (You can also find this book in unabridged audio, if you have a long drive… it just isn’t referenced, and I’m all about the references.)
Alternatively, I do not believe this is a reflection of any particular doctrine that is closer to the truth than another doctrine (take for instance New Wine Fellowship vs. Calvary Chapel). I believe people within Christianity are as apt to their cultural surroundings as those outside of it. Post-Modernism tends to permeate our society, and people coming out of this type of secularism are more apt to gravitate towards touchy-feely type of denominations that put – I would contend, and unhealthy balance of – an emphasis on feelings. These feelings and miracles that some come into contact with (and actively look for) are not much more than shenanigans and self-induced delusion. Why do I use such a strong word such as delusion, self-induced at that?
Richard Feynman, a well-known physicist, puts it like this, “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself- and you are the easiest person to fool.” Don’t you see, quite a few Pentecostal churches create a theological construct that what you feel at a particular moment, say, in their Sunday service, determines truth. Whereas, I find that most evangelical churches put an emphasis on determining truth not by wealth, miracles, or feelings – all the earmarks of the postmodernist in my minds eye – but by whether what they see, feel, and receive are scriptural. Take for instance the book that does just that called, The Confusing World of Benny Hinn: A Call for Discerning the Ministry & Teaching of the Popular Healing Evangelist, which, instead of relying on that fuzzy – happy – feel one gets when they go to one of his meetings, they discern his teachings by Biblical doctrine.
I wish to digress and qualify this somewhat, I was raised in the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches and do believe that the gifts are for today… BUT; God doesn’t always heal all the time (see for instance Richard Mayhue’s, The Healing Promise: Is It Always God’s Will to Heal?, this book has a chapter by Joni Eareckson-Tada – if you don’t know who she is, look her up on the www.). This being said, I have the gift of tongues, and I grew up in a church that would “coach” the congregation to sing in them and blurt them out in times of worship. This, however, I found was in direct violation to Paul’s teachings (you remember him, as you invoked his authority quite a bit). And upon further review, I found that quite a bit of the goings-on in the Pentecostal movement is in direct violation to the scriptures. This is not to say that they aren’t saved or going to heaven, on the contrary, we see darkly now, but some day we will see clearly. And in the same vicinity as that passage is one’s dealing with the early church misusing their God-given gifts, much like today.
You can throw around all the scripture you wish, but the point is that taken in the wrong context all you are showing is your tenacity for tomfoolery, pardon my forwardness.
SeanG
SeanG! | | Back to Top | | |
|
kerygma
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/10/2002 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Well put, Sean G.
There is a thread though, that seems to speak to "Religion" which I have a dim view of these days.
And Christ always had a dim view of it.
Jesus knew the dangers of religion. He was hated by some of the most religious people in Jerusalem. While the sinners and outcasts of society were attracted to Him, the religionists of His day--the Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees, and priests--were with few exceptions His bitter enemies.
Jesus did not flatter these religious leaders. He didn't leave room for the notion that they were godly men who had just made a mistake about Him. He said that if they had known His Father, they would have known Him. To their face, He called them hypocrites and blind leaders of the blind.
This isn't the storyline many of us might expect. We might expect Jesus' enemies to surface among the atheists, secular thinkers, and criminal elements of society. That wasn't the case. Street people were attracted to Him. Sinners were among His friends. Even Pilate, the pagan Roman governor of Judea, was inclined to give Jesus more consideration and benefit of the doubt. The religious Sadducees and Pharisees of Jerusalem, however, were always trying to discredit Jesus. They had no use for Him, and they were convinced that the world would be a better place without Him.
Beware religion. Understand its place. It's at best a supporting environment, not our focus. God is our focus.
And trust in Him. Not man's religion.
Scott
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5
| | Back to Top | | |
|
SeanG
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/11/2002 1:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Mmmm, yes Kerygma, I do believe that, say, the Roman Catholic church would be a topic of distress by Jesus if he came again, or for that matter if the RC church was around in His day, it would for sure be the topic of discussion. Mind you, there are true believers within the Catholic church; these believers however juggle quite a bit of the edicts that they should be adhering to. I do believe that this type of religion is one where the believer has to really separate the wheat from the chaff. The church (not Roman Catholicism specifically, nor Protestantism), though, was started by the people closest to Jesus, so when “the church” is lumped all together with religion, I wouldn’t say that religion, per-say, is a bad thing. I do see where you are coming from though. In all of Josh McDowell’s books you will find the Christ centered life represented by a chair and cross. Any Christian within any denomination should have the Christ centered life, obviously.
Thank you for the complement about the previously written item, I appreciate it.
SeanG! | | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/12/2002 4:47 AM (GMT -6) | | I personally know very painfully the tragic consequences of the word-faith doctrine. I have seen it destroy people. I don't like it AT ALL. Moreover, if you define "religion" as a set of beliefs and behaviors people embrace to get right with God and/or belong to a religious community, I would have to say I've seen this harm a great many people as well, including myself. I will thus try to help people out of religion -- and the word-faith religion in particular -- whenever appropriate circumstances arise.
At the same time, I am very aware of how I easily I can "fool myself" (good word Sean) by supposing I stand in a priveleged perspective from which I can judge whose "in" and whose "out," based on my own (usually self-serving) criteria. I am thus extremely hesitant to apply the "other gospel" passages to whole people groups.
This doesn't mean I won't assess and respond to the impact of their beliefs and behavior (as I said above, I will) or that I will not express disagreement with their views (I will). Nor does it mean that I won't warn people (and myself) that there is a spirit in the world that wants to use false teachings to decieve people. But I can't judge others hearts or predict their eschatological destiny based on my own perspectives. I have to simply love them and leave all conclusions to God.
And maybe even THIS perspective is wrong. AT the end of the day, I have to say, "If God's mercy isn't a real thing, I'm lost."
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
|
SeanG
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/12/2002 6:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Somewhat off topic Greg, I believe the Bible speaks directly to the Christian about just that, that is, easily fooling ourselves. That verse reads like this: “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves….” Or as the Living Bible puts it: “Check up on yourselves. Are you really Christians? Do you past the test?...” Of course this applies to who Jesus is, but the Bible calls us to watch our own beliefs, sort of reorienting ourselves from time-to-time. The Feynman quote was used by Carl Sagan to “attack” Christians, but the truth of the statement stands as one of the hallmarks of history.
Just blabbing about nothing… don’t mind me 
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:56 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|