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OrthodoxBerean
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 82
 
   Posted 1/16/2003 11:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am having some trouble here in my head thinking this through.

I understand that at the incarnation the "Divine person" added to himself a human nature. I have no problem with this.

Although what I am having trouble iwth is how He "existed" through both natures.

It seems that we must say that Christ existed simultaneously through the human nature and the divine nature. Meaning that while he slept "through his divine nature" he was also awake. Would everyone agree with this? While Christ did at times not know things (in his human nature) He (the person) would know everything through his divine nature. This demonstrate the ability to function through both natures simultaneously.

Although, another question arises in my head that I need help with. If the above two are possible why would it not be possibel fro Christ to pray, through his human nature, as a person and yet as the same person hear and respond through his divine nature.

Please don't understand me as making the NATURE the cause of the actions. I affirm that it is simply the vessel through which the person worked. But, why can't this be said????

I am very confused. This seems to give way to the Oneness believer that says that the Father is Jesus as he exist and acts through the divine nature and the Son is Jesus as he exist through the human nature? It does seem that being that the ONE PERSON has two natures this would give that ONE person two consciencenesess. One that is of his dinve nature and one that is of his divine nature.

Boy am I confused. Any help out there?

Thanks. Come on out Orthodox folk....

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/16/2003 4:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Herb, check your e-mail.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/17/2003 1:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Herb, check out this article.

www.svots.edu/Faculty/John-Behr/Articles/2001-06-svtq-behr.pdf

READ THE WHOLE THING.

It begins with:

quote:
The question of the proper starting point, the “first principles,” is one to which theology, and every discipline it encompasses, must continually return. Without being firmly grounded on its proper foundation, the vast body of reflection developed within theology risks collapsing into dust. It is not simply that the first principles are elementary stages, transcended by higher realms of esoteric reflection, but that they also provide the necessary orientation or perspective within which the more abstract discussion takes place and is to be understood. It is clear that the Christian faith is first and foremost faith in the lordship and divinity of the crucified and exalted Christ, yet the implications of this fact for how we understand and construe Christian doctrine are rarely considered. The analysis of this dimension offered in this article might seem unnecessarily laborious and extensive, but the scope and importance of its implications merit such a venture.

Trinity and Incarnation—Axes of the Christian Faith?

The dictum that “conclusions without the arguments that lead to them are at best ambiguous” might seem obvious, but its implications are rarely taken up. An example of this is the way in which Trinitarian theology, debated so vigorously during the fourth century on grounds already prepared during the first three, is often reduced to shorthand formulae, such as the “three hypostases and one ousia” of “the consubstantial Trinity.” The reflection that lies behind such phrases is immense, yet it is often glossed over. Indeed, the very familiarity of such phrases results in their being detached from the debates that resulted in them and divorced from the content that they seek to encapsulate. These “facts of dogma” are assumed as a given, and so Trinitarian theology concerns itself with reflecting on how the one God can simultaneously be three eternally distinct persons, without the plurality destroying the unity or the unity undermining the reality of the distinctions. In its textbook form, such theology begins with what can be known and said of this God—that he is one, the uncreated origin of all creation, love, goodness and so on; and then proceeds to the analysis how this same God is three—how the persons of the Trinity are related, their different characteristics and relationships. Having explained this “immanent” trinitarian theology, describing the being of such a God as it is in itself, the next step is to relate this Trinity to the activity of revelation, the economy of salvation recorded in Scripture, the “economic” dimension of trinitarian theology. But now, because of the position already established, it is simply assumed, beginning with Augustine, that the theophanies described in the Old Testament were not uniquely manifestations of the Son and Word of God, but of any of the three, or the Trinity itself, the one Lord God, as Augustine put it. Finally it is claimed, first by Peter Lombard, though it is still a common presupposition, that while it was the Son who became man, as Jesus Christ, it was nevertheless possible, and still is, for the Father and the Spirit also to be incarnate. Trinitarian theology is made into realm unto itself, requiring subsequent reflection on “the Incarnation” of one of the three divine persons: Triadology followed by Christology. In this perspective, the Trinity and the Incarnation are taken as being the linchpins of Christian theology—Christian faith is “Trinitarian” and “incarnational.” This has become an unquestioned premise for most twentieth-century theology.



And it ends with:

quote:
Rather, the confession that Jesus Christ is the Word of God is based in the literary dynamics of this relationship between Scripture and the Gospel, a relationship which turns specifically upon the axis of the Paschal faith, the lordship of the crucified and exalted Christ, as proclaimed by the apostles “according to the Scriptures,” and as continually reflected on thereafter by those who followed in their tradition. In this way, the confession that Christ is the Word of God directs our own attention back to Scripture, to reflect yet further on the identity of Christ, and this is an engagement to which all Christians are called, so coming to understand themselves in the light of Christ and eventually to come to the fullness of his stature (Eph 4:13). To overlook this dimension in which such theological affirmations take flesh, are embodied, in preference for the already familiar shorthand formulae and the theological edifices built from them, turns theology from confession to a mixture of metaphysics and mythology, and bypasses the perennial challenge of Christ’s question “Who do you say I am?” (Mt 16:15).


You wrote several well grounded things, Herb. But since I'd stear quite clear of the "Oneness" error I don't feel a need to relate the two.

Hope this helps.

READ THE ARTICLE.

I hope that it gives you some things to think about.

Al

Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 01/17/2003 06:41:32 AM
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/19/2003 12:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=5&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPIC_ID=1642
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