Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > casualties of war

Forum Quick Jump

62 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/14/2002 3:24 AM (GMT -6)

So, God and I have one tiny thing in common: we don’t like hypocrites, eh? But then, no one does.

Starkman, you talked about the wickedness in men’s hearts. I have to agree, it’s obvious. But, then, if we are so wicked by nature—I mean the odds are entirely stacked against us—how can we ever possibly do good? Is this the work of God’s grace? But, if I’m an atheist and I still manage to do good, then whom do we credit? Who is morally accountable? Can you accept God’s grace and Not even know it? …or is that determined ahead of time?
I am trying to understand Calvinism more. Some of us are elect, but nobody knows for sure, so just keep trying? So it’s not determined ahead of time, but God knows it?

If you believe in God, it seems to me your reason for doing good comes from your fear of eternal punishment for doing bad. Of course, there are other reasons, like seeking approval and such, and there is this thing called love which I can’t explain at all but it’s There, but I think maybe it all turns out to be selfish, anyway. Well, not just selfish, but how we are brought up and conditioned, also. So how is it even possible for God to judge us?
Maybe I'm wrong. I said before that allowing the suffering of babies is just plain wrong. So, someone has to define wrong. Hmm.
More later, thanks.

Edited by - deal22000 on 01/14/2002 08:49:36 AM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/14/2002 4:07 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Starkman, you talked about the wickedness in men’s hearts. I have to agree, it’s obvious. But, then, if we are so wicked by nature—I mean the odds are entirely stacked against us—how can we ever possibly do good? Is this the work of God’s grace?

once again deal, answering your own question. it is only,only,only by God's grace that we can even do good. (Total depravity to a calvinist.)

quote:

But, if I’m an atheist and I still manage to do good, then whom do we credit? Who is morally accountable?

i'd say that in an atheists mind, if s/he is consistent, nothing they do is either good or bad. to them, its just nature running its course.

quote:

can you accept God’s grace and Not even know it? …or is that determined ahead of time?
I am trying to understand Calvinism more. Some of us are elect, but nobody knows for sure, so just keep trying? So it’s not determined ahead of time, but God knows it?

i don't think you can accept God's grace without knowing it. accepting God's grace is a life-changing event. it turns you 180 degrees. it would be hard not to notice.

calvinists believe that everything(everything!!!) is determined ahead of time. while it is an okay position to hold, i believe it is incorrect. i don't think anybody is selected ahead of time. God gives us the ability to truely show our love for him by giving us free will and by giving us the option to choose him. This is still done by grace however. we can't do it solely on our own.

quote:

If you believe in God, it seems to me your reason for doing good comes from your fear of eternal punishment for doing bad.

for me, doing good comes from me desire to please him and to be obedient to what he's laid out for me in the word. I have no fear of eternal punishment because i know i will be in heaven.

quote:

So how is it even possible for God to judge us?

when this world is over, God judges everyone for their deeds. since no one is perfect, no one can get in by themselves.
the only way that we can get in to heaven is to have jesus on our side.

June

Edited by - June on 01/14/2002 10:36:34 AM

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/15/2002 7:18 AM (GMT -6)

June, in your mind, is my doing good and being an atheist (or, to be more specific, a person who thinks there is no personal, christian-type god out there—-we haven’t even defined “god” yet) something I do by the grace of God? But, you said I probably couldn’t accept that grace without knowing it, and I don’t know it. So, is it just chance?

Do you think you'll get to heaven based on your faith alone? I don't think you do. Then why do you say God will judge our deeds? I'm confused.

What did it take for you to decide there’s a god (christian, personal)? logical evidence? someone can probably provide that to me, but there’s always some matter of faith involved. I think I’d need a personal encounter. Anyone else think that?

Also, quickly, (i know, it's not so quick) how do we define what is good? We all seem to agree on some things, which doesn’t make sense, but then, we all agree on many other things we don't argue about--like if you hit me on the head, it will hurt. but others are completely different based on culture, etc. So, it seems to be only partly relative. If we say there is some definite standard of goodness, does that necessarily mean there’s a god?

Hey Starkman, thanks for the book recommendation. Just started, but I think I may be on to something here. can't hurt at this point

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/15/2002 1:15 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Deal,

Man, I've GOT to go get dinner in, but like the kid in Toy Story II said when his mom told him "We're leaving in five minutes", "five minutes? Hmmm!" And he, indeed, did squeeze some more fun into the game before he left for cowboy camp!!!

Okay, defining God: first and foremost a being who creates out of nothing, has all power to enforce His will, knows all, and does not know (as in doing) evil. If nothing more, must understand this much: He's big enough to rule the universe - a lot bigger than you and me, for sure! That should get our attention! (oh, I'm horribly philosophically here...sorry!)

Defining good? Go back to the being God who created all this and find out what HE has to say about good. Or, as you so VERY well noted, Deal, you will be stuck in a relativity that will never end. For it is true that we all have our own personal values about good and evil. THAT alone attests that within the heart of man there is something (though it's been slightly messed up) that tells us wrong from right...or at least a close facsimilie!

Rushed....YEAH, YEAH, I'll get dinner going (kids, I tell ya!)

Do you think you'll get to heaven based on your faith alone? I don't think you do. Then why do you say God will judge our deeds? I'm confused.

On heaven and access to it: One gets there because God made a way to get there; He has offered His Son to bare our sins, to bare the sin of the world and thus allow us to not be held accountable (eterally wise) and thus be eterally seperated from God.

Faith? It's merely the vehicle to ride in to access this God we talk about. It doesn't save you, Jesus Christ reaches down and saves you.

Say dude, a close encounter with the Divine? Well, we'd all once in a while appreciate God showing up and saying "Hey, what's up!). But...we humans tend to loose that emotional and mental boost such things can give. As Jesus said in Luke 16 "If they won't believe Moses, they won't believe even though one rises from the dead". We just bomb out sooner or later with regard to the energy, the impact and the emotions that are filled. Faith, however, never has to leave. It's here to stay until it's no longer needed. But miracles? Well, get healed from cancer and still find, perhaps, that one doesn't keep that promise "Oh God, if you heal me I'll serve you forever". The impact just wears off after a while for most people. God knows this and avoids it at all costs!

What leads one to conlude that there really is a God? Well, as you'll read in those books I suggested - and man, that's great that you got them! Good for you - it's the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even more, it's the life, death, teachings and resurrection! This is why Paul could write in Acts 17:31 - "Because He has appointed a da, in which, He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance unto all men in that He has raised Him from the dead."

No one's gonna top that because He proved "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one gets to the Father but by Me". That, my good man, is why we can confidentally believe in God, if for no other reason!

Rushing even more...HEY, YOU WANNA EAT AT ALL TONIGHT??? (sheesh, why didn't I just by pizzas!)

Well, that's about it for me right now. Oh, and forget dinner; the kids lost 20 more pounds from starvation and just went up to bed fed up with me! I tell you! OH, I'M JUST KIDDING FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!

For the Master,

Starkman

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/15/2002 1:35 PM (GMT -6)

i just had a response written up but my computer froze up! i write it later.

June

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/15/2002 4:47 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

June, in your mind, is my doing good and being an atheist (or, to be more specific, a person who thinks there is no personal, christian-type god out there—-we haven’t even defined “god” yet) something I do by the grace of God? But, you said I probably couldn’t accept that grace without knowing it, and I don’t know it. So, is it just chance?

let me first just say this. i don't really know how grace works. when i think i've got a handle on it i find i really have no clue. Romans 8:28 says that "all things work together for the good of the those who love him and have been called according to his purpose." "Grace is a disposition to love which is not dependent on the merit of the person loved"-David Basinger.

quote:

Do you think you'll get to heaven based on your faith alone? I don't think you do. Then why do you say God will judge our deeds? I'm confused.

i know i get to heaven on faith alone. i will get to heaven by faith in Jesus alone. but as i said before, faith and deeds go hand in hand. James 2 speaks on this. verse 26 "as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." the outward deeds show the inward faith.

quote:

What did it take for you to decide there’s a god (christian, personal)? logical evidence? someone can probably provide that to me, but there’s always some matter of faith involved. I think I’d need a personal encounter. Anyone else think that?

for me, i couldn't think of spending an eternity in hell. it was just so powerful in my mind that i knew i had to make the choice to go to heaven. when i became a christian, i didn't have all my theology straight. thats part of being ad christain, knowing and learning and studying about God.

I wouldn't recommend waiting for a personal encounter from God. If God did decide to speak to you, would you recognize his voice? i've found he speaks to me through other people and through ups and downs in my life. i'd say check out the Word of God and see if he doesn't speak to you through that.

quote:

Also, quickly, (i know, it's not so quick) how do we define what is good? We all seem to agree on some things, which doesn’t make sense, but then, we all agree on many other things we don't argue about--like if you hit me on the head, it will hurt. but others are completely different based on culture, etc. So, it seems to be only partly relative. If we say there is some definite standard of goodness, does that necessarily mean there’s a god?

if not from God, where did our moral judgement come from? evolution? it would be extremely difficult to prove that. to a naturalist, its just nature running its course-actions are neither good nor bad. (i would be hard pressed to find anyone, even atheists who would say the acts of september 11 where not bad/evil/wrong.) God has sent on the earth the holy spirit to work in our lives and to pull us and persuade us to go in the right direction.

hope this helps

June

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 1/15/2002 5:07 PM (GMT -6)

[Deal: What did it take for you to decide there’s a god (christian, personal)? logical evidence? someone can probably provide that to me, but there’s always some matter of faith involved.

Doc: Deal, WHATEVER you believe takes FAITH. The question is, IS your faith rational or not? The best definition of "true belief" I know is "that upon which you are willing to act." You will live your life on the faith that there is no God, or on the faith that there IS a God. Either one takes faith. If you choose atheism, you are TRUSTING that there is no God.

I’d encourage you to rather have faith – and thus live – that there is a God.

Blessings,

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/16/2002 7:20 AM (GMT -6)

Starkman—I ordered pizza last night, and it’s not even Friday. What a week!

So, you’re defining god as Creator. I agree with that. You’re saying “good” is what god defines as good. June, you seem to say the same thing: that God gave us these moral barometers, so to speak. If I'm wrong, let me know, of course.

But then, he goes around and does things (or permits things) that all of us agree are not good, i.e., bad. (well, not good doesn’t necessarily mean bad, but let’s take the case of deformed babies--no person's fault--, as an extreme that we can all agree is BAD)

You hold up the fact that Christ came here as proof that god is good. BUT, does that negate the fact that he also does some not so nice things?

Doc, I see what you mean about whatever I decide requires faith. What if I decide there’s a god, but I don’t like him? I’d still live my life about the same, but I wouldn’t worship him.

Seems like the question is, Why do you worship god? Many factors to consider here:

--threat of eternal damnation? (God does bad things, but I don’t want to burn in hell)
--you think he is totally good—but, you’re willing to forgo your own judgment of good and bad (which you say he gave us) by saying He must be right (so the suffering of babies is not bad afterall)
--He’s thinking of the overall picture—what’s good in the long run—so it may not be good now, but it will pay off later (but for Everyone, or just those who are lucky enough—or have been predestined—to not suffer much in this life? Or maybe it Does depend on our deeds, provided we also have faith.) This one seems to lead to the fact of relying on an afterlife to compensate for all the pain in this one. It makes sense, but let’s be honest, it’s ultimately selfish—we’re worshipping because we see a pay off in the future. I'm leaning my way here--I don't want to burn either. Not that I don't appreciate His goodness--that's part of it. But,let's compare this to a woman who stays with an abusive husband, because he's really good to her many times, and she think's it's her best bet. She may even be right--no other man may want her. But she has another choice--to leave and at least show him that she won't put up with it, she knows it's wrong.

I’ll back off on the requirement for an encounter with the divine, that’s pushing it. And, yes, it might not work for too long, if at all, because I’d probably just think I was losing my mind. Or, as you said, I’d find another excuse to doubt.

Mephi--I highly doubt you're reading this, but if you are, why do You worship?

Edited by - deal22000 on 01/16/2002 1:28:02 PM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/16/2002 8:31 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

But then, he goes around and does things (or permits things) that all of us agree are not good, i.e., bad. (well, not good doesn’t necessarily mean bad, but let’s take the case of deformed babies, as an extreme that we can all agree is Not good)

You hold up the fact that Christ came here as proof that god is good. BUT, does that negate the fact that he also does some not so nice things?

God permits things because he has given us free will (in my opinion). If he prevented evil from always happening, humans would in no real sense have the ability to choose. By giving us an amount of power (and therefore God does not have all the power in the universe) he puts restrictions on himself and therefore allows bad things to happen. things that he is often greived about himself.

Christ is the ultimate revelation of God. God cannot be anything that Jesus was not. Also, Jesus cannot be anything that God is not. when you say 'he does some not so nice things', do you mean God allowing evil? (which hopefully i've just explained)

quote:

Doc, I see what you mean about whatever I decide requires faith. What if I decide there’s a god, but I don’t like him? I’d still live my life about the same, but I wouldn’t worship him.

what god is the one you are talking about? the God i know is loving, merciful, gracious, and perfectly good. what's not to like about that?

quote:

Seems like the question is, Why do you worship god? Many factors to consider here:

--threat of eternal damnation? (God does bad things, but I don’t want to burn in hell)
--you think he is totally good—but, you’re willing to forgo your own judgment of good and bad (which you say he gave us) by saying He must be right (so the suffering of babies is not bad afterall)
--He’s thinking of the overall picture—what’s good in the long run—so it may not be good now, but it will pay off later (but for Everyone, or just those who are lucky enough—or have been predestined—to not suffer much in this life? Or maybe it Does depend on our deeds, provided we also have faith. This one seems to lead to the fact of relying on an afterlife to compensate for all the pain in this one. It makes sense, but let’s be honest, it’s ultimately selfish—we’re worshipping because we see a pay off in the future. I'm leaning my way here--I don't want to burn either. Not that I don't appreciate His goodness--that's part of it.

i worship God because of what he's done for me. he is the one i ascribe ultimate worth to (doc's saying somewhere). he gives me life and a reason to live and to enjoy this life. he is my ever present help in times of trouble. he is the one to whom i give the burden when i can't do it alone. he is the one in whom i find rest. without God, life is well, pretty pointless.

worshipping God does not require us to forgo our idea of good and bad. if we feel in our heart of hearts that its probably wrong, then it probably is. and i believe that comes from God. once again, because evil happens, it doesn't mean that God determined or ordained that it happened. being a christian in this life does not make it any easier. in fact it will probably(and should be) harder.

you said 'or maybe it comes from deeds, provided you also have faith.' actually i think it should be 'if comes from faith, provided that you also have deeds.' faith without deeds is dead. clearly however, it is by our faith that we are saved.

in a sense we are worshipping God because of the eternal life he's promised us. if God just created us for this life and that is it, what worth is it to worship him? great he created us, but for what? in reality, God created us to be with him. he has loved us enough to provide a way to heaven so that we might spend eternity with him. and that is why we worship him.

June

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/16/2002 9:24 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Deal,

Thought I'd make a note here to ya about God being good but doing/allowing things that don't looks so good!

If you as a parent raise your childrent to do good and not evil, but they do some evil things anyways, does that reflect on you as someone who's doing/allowing evil? No, of course not.

You also must come to a place where you let go and allow your children to do as they wish; there's no life and freedom without that. If they choose wrong in given areas, it isn't to say that you allowed it or that you are doing it. It is the functioning of human freewill. Oh, we don't like it, but if it isn't allowed, what on earth would be humans be?

So God has created us with the possibility of choosing evil, disobeying Him, harming others and ourselves. But it could be no other way that God could have respected us more than to have given this freedom as much of a loose canon it was.

Jesus wept over Jerusalem because she (the city) would not get it; He, her God and soul sorce of existance was in her very presence. It reflected much about how God's heart is towards us. He has been with us, He has walked with us, He has touched us, and He has given us life, hope and an eternal future, if we will but surrender our old, disobedient, self-centered will and get back to the way things should be.

When God gave us free will, He only did so in two areas: one narrow, one braod. The narrow was "Eat what you will but not of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; you will die in that day you do eat of it". The broad choice was "Hey, name the animals, have kids, do this, that and the other." (you can read about this in the first few chapters of Genesis).

We are not so free to do as we wish. It was never given to us to do as we wish and then tell God "Hey, you're not playing fair here. I can do as I wish". Nope, doesn't work that way. We are allowed a lot of freedom in this life, but when it comes to having eternal life, a meaninful life (in that your reason and purpose for living is explained and brought to its fruition), and walking as human beings should walk before God, we are very limited; His Word is the means by which we can come to know this information.

Well, the wife needs the phone, and I've yet to have had a T-1 installed to the house - we'd be talking very, very fast, I tell you, not to mention I wouldn't have to get off the net to use the phone! Alas, I have only one phone line!

Til the next time,

Starkman

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/16/2002 11:59 AM (GMT -6)

Alright, you’re wearing me down a bit. I thought I understood the idea of free will and its implications, but when you talked about being a parent, I started to understand more. If my kid commits a horrible crime someday, after I’ve shown him or her how to be morally responsible, no, I don’t think I would be to blame, really. I’d still feel bad, but not really responsible, or not totally responsible. There are other factors involved. I might take some of the blame, because I’m not perfect. But God is, isn’t he? (isn't he responsible for these other factors?--alright, fallen angels, I thought that was crazy, but maybe it's the answer. I don't see any evidence of that though.) Would you worship a god who wasn’t perfect? Big question to me.

Does free will cover it all? I don’t think so. This is the big question with me. How about a person suffering from some debilitating disease. He’s not perfect, but he doesn’t deserve this much hell. Or, a baby born with a serious birth defect (not attributable to the parents’ lack of care or whatever) that will cause him an extreme amount of pain in this life—to the point of not even being able to enjoy anything that this god has given us) Could god devise a world where things like this wouldn’t happen? Maybe that’s the question. I think if He’s omnipotent, he could. Of course, there are certain parameters even he’d be confined to—it would have to be logical, etc. Maybe that’s where I’m really lacking. Can you think of a world where we could have free will but still not have all of this seemingly needless (or undeserved) suffering? I think maybe someone out there can. Do you think all suffering serves a purpose? I guess you could say it teaches either that person or other people a lesson. But, look around, nobody’s learned very much, have we? And god has to already know that, doesn’t he?

June, you said everything about God is clearly displayed in Christ. I thought Christ was an expression of God—in human (i.e. imperfect—a perfect human, but not a perfect God) form.

Starkman, you said, “We are allowed a lot of freedom in this life, but when it comes to having eternal life, a meaninful life (in that your reason and purpose for living is explained and brought to its fruition), and walking as human beings should walk before God, we are very limited”

I really need to think about this as well. Thanks, all.

Edited by - deal22000 on 01/16/2002 5:19:31 PM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/16/2002 6:14 PM (GMT -6)

deal,
a world without suffering is a world without love. what would make the good of this world good?
ability of choosing evil is the necessary opposite of the abililty to choose good. now, fallen angels as you mentioned, complicate things. in my opinion, and there are opposing views to this, there is a constant battle going on between spiritual powers. (this is a HUGE complicated debate in itself, very deep and thick theologically! and i'm no theologian so someone help me out!) as a result of the battle and fallen angels, some evil gets worked out in the world, i.e. deformed babies. this is obviously not the way God would have it happen if he willed everyone to act as he would have them act.

Christ is the ultimate revelation of God in human form. he is both fully human and fully divine. (this really boggles my mind!) he has proven himself to be both perfect in the human sense, and because he is God, is perfect.

hope this helps

June

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 1/17/2002 3:11 AM (GMT -6)

June says:

quote:
a world without suffering is a world without love. what would make the good of this world good?

Did you maybe mean to say that a world without the possibility of suffering is a world without love?

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/17/2002 6:21 AM (GMT -6)

might-be-don

that is not originally what i meant, but i think that your sentence is correct. thank you for picking that out for me!

June

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/17/2002 6:41 AM (GMT -6)

hi june. what you say does help, thanks. i thought of this before. god shows us darkness so we can distinguish and appreciate the light. the question is, how much darkness is enough? personally, i think possibly i've seen enough. enough to change my behavior, even. but i could change more. and we're all in this together, eh? learning as i go, or tryin' to

Edited by - deal22000 on 01/17/2002 11:49:31 AM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/17/2002 10:16 AM (GMT -6)

deal,
how much is enough? that is for God the father to know alone. even the son does not know when the Father will come back and bring his people home. there is so much darkness surrounding us. but think about one little light in the middle of the darkness. a small candle and light up a room full of darkness. we as christians are called to this light in the darkness. if we prove ourselves to be faithful to God in the midst of all this darkness, then he knows he has our hearts and not just our heads.

ever hear the story of the balloon man? well, i'll tell it too you. there was a balloon man. you know the kind you see at theme parks, holding enought balloons to make you think they could float away. well, this particular man is the balloon man on a cruise. one day, as he is making his rounds, he gets a note from someone saying that the captain would wish to speak to him immediately. so he heads to the office. upon arrival, he realizes that he can't get inside due to all the balloons he's got. and of course he can't let them go. so he decides to send a message to the captain that he's sorry, but he just couldn't get in the see him. as the day was winding down, there was a large feast being prepared for all the passengers. everyone on the ship was invited, it was to be a huge party. once again, the balloon man could not get inside. he had all these balloons in his hand and couldn't let them go. heck, he was the balloon man! what we he be without his precious balloons? so he scrounged around on the deck of the boat and found some leftover cheese and crackers that had been left there from that afternoon. the crackers were soggy and the cheese was bad, nothing compared to the feast, but at least it was something. the balloon man decided to just spend the night out on the deck because he couldn't get into his room, not with the balloons in his hand anyway. the next morning the captain came looking for him. he asked the balloon man why he had not come to the party the night before. the man replied "sir, i am the balloon man and i could not fit through the doorway with my balloons, so i decided to stay out here." the captain replied "i had a seat at the head table reserved for you. you were to be sitting next to me at the feast last night. until you let go of those balloons you can have no part in the feast. i will give you the opportunity to do the same tonight. i will once again reserve a seat for you. i beg you to come, it will be well worth your trouble." so the man thought about it all day, and finally when it was time for the feast, the balloon man looked at the doorway, and then up to his balloons. he thought about all the food that would be there, and about his seat at the head table. next to the captain! slowly, one by one, the balloon man let his balloons go. finally he was able to make it in through the door. once inside, the captain rushed over and greeted him, and immediately brought him to his reserved seat at the head table. "i'm so glad you came," replied the captain. matthew 7:13-14 states "enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." so what is holding you back?

June

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/19/2002 12:04 PM (GMT -6)

Jan 19 -2:05pm

Hey Deal,

Ah! finally a brief moment to write. Still looking for work, I am, but I've got some time on this here weekend now! Praise the Lord!

I'd like to address just a few things here, Deal. It's about the existance of evil, the amount God allows and the issue of those going to hell.

Darkness is upon this planet. It's bad, and as you stated well it hasn't gotten any better because people don't learn. How true. Considering, the times today are not that bad (in this country at least) as they both have been in other countries of times past and today, and will one day be. Darkness isn't allowed by God in the sense that God thinks it's good stuff to use in His plan. No, it's here because we brought it on ourselves. At one point God found it fit to destroy the world with water; man's heart was seemingly hopelss to mend. They didn't care to listen and obey God in the least. God, however, had a plan! Starting with a person (Noah) who could begin the process of redemption, God spared Noah, his family and sets of animals to start the whole thing over. But this time with a strict and straight-foward plan in mind, since man left to himself proved that he would never and could never come to God if God didn't do something to counter the pull of evil.

The plan involved a group of people who, in the midst of such darkness brought into to the world by man's rebellion and disobedience to God, would be used to bring about a mystery God had hidden in time; the eventual manifestation of a Savior who could not only give hope for man but be the very way to burst out of the darkness. The mystery deepened in content (as it was revealed to the apostles) in that it would mean something very dear to those who would respond to the call, more dear than just hope; they would become, in a manner most inconceivable, part of the very body of this Savior. This is the church - called out ones.

Darkness still swept across the lands of earth as the Savior hung on the cross and died. But darkness took a grave turn come the morning the Savior resurrected from the dead. For death could no longer hold anyone who would partake of this Saviour's body. If you are part of His body, you are part of life. You have escaped death, hoplessness, darkness.

The darkness that is still with us, the darkness that has been of old ages and haunts us with such ugliness one can hardly at times believe it, is not "allowed" by God, as I noted, in the sense that it works out pretty well for God to use: "I'll bring in some darkness so as to make the light more visible and appealing." Do we really think that God would have to have darkness around to get others to appreciate its glory? I don't think so!

Evil exists today as it does when there is war between countries, for God is at war with Satan. There are places and times when it's heavy, other times when it's not. Not to mention that the world itself is in an upheavel from all the hell going on. God does play by His own rules regarding the right of those (both human and angelic) to exercise free will, but He does not use evil or evil things other than to take the evil that man and Satan stir up and turn it around to bring work against man and Satan, if so needed.

Remember too that man from his sin has brought about a world quite different than the one God originally created. God will work within this environment and utilize that which is available to bring man into relationship. Sometimes this calls for drastic measures where as it wouldn't have had man just listened and obeyed in the first place.

The war will cease one day. The end of evil will come. But for the follower of Jesus Christ, a member of His body, there is already the reality of a newness of life, of escape from the stranglehold of Satan and evil. Jesus Himself said for us to be of good cheer because He had overcome the world. To the Christian Satan's hold is broken. This is spiritual stuff. It will fully show itself in the "natural" one day.

Hope that helps more!

For the conversation,

Starkman

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/21/2002 2:29 AM (GMT -6)

June and Starkman--The more I find out, the more I realize that there are many more things I need to consider, basic facts to know. Of course, I already knew that. I just was curious as to what someone here would have to say about a few things. Gotta start somewhere :) What you’ve said and what I’ve been reading is helping immensely. I do see it’s a matter of faith either way. Maybe I’ll be back when I have some better questions to ask. Thanks! p.s. good luck on the job hunt, Starkman!

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 1/21/2002 6:58 AM (GMT -6)

June and Starkman, great responses to Deal22000. And great questions Deal! My response was written before I read theres, and largely just repeats it, but may be with a slightly different angle. Since I already wrote it, I'd thought I'd post it anyway. For what its worth.

Deal: Doc, I see what you mean about whatever I decide requires faith. What if I decide there’s a god, but I don’t like him? I’d still live my life about the same, but I wouldn’t worship him.

Doc: Then you’re exercising FAITH that God is not all good and that its appropriate not to worship him. Its faith because you can’t be certain you’re correct, and the stakes may be high for the decision you make.

Deal: Seems like the question is, Why do you worship god? Many factors to consider here:

--threat of eternal damnation? (God does bad things, but I don’t want to burn in hell)

Doc: What if God is simply telling us what eternal life without him is like? If its true, its not bad for him to tell us this.

Deal: you think he is totally good—but, you’re willing to forgo your own judgment of good and bad (which you say he gave us) by saying He must be right (so the suffering of babies is not bad afterall)

Doc: I don’t forgo my judgement about good or bad, though I’m willing, because I have good reason to do so, to accept that there are reasons in this world why he can’t always carry out his good will. And suffering babies is ALWAYS bad.

Deal: -He’s thinking of the overall picture—what’s good in the long run—so it may not be good now, but it will pay off later… This one seems to lead to the fact of relying on an afterlife to compensate for all the pain in this one. It makes sense, but let’s be honest, it’s ultimately selfish—we’re worshipping because we see a pay off in the future.

Doc: Its true that when God’s will is finally accomplished there will be eternal life in his presence, and this will make all the suffering worth it. But its not selfish to want to live in God’s presence and enjoy him forever, any more than its selfish to want to eat food or drink water because your hungry or thirst. Its just the natural way your created.

Deal" let's compare this to a woman who stays with an abusive husband, because he's really good to her many times, and she think's it's her best bet. She may even be right--no other man may want her. But she has another choice--to leave and at least show him that she won't put up with it, she knows it's wrong.

Doc: The analogy works if your convinced God is abusive. But why have faith (it is faith) that God is abusive? If the Christian claim that Jesus Christ is the final, definitive, revelation of God is true, God is anything but "abusive." He is a God of unthinkable love and mercy. Satan, demons, moms and dads, husbands, wives and other people may abuse you. They have the power to do that. They couldn’t have the power to love you unless they also had the power to harm you – nor you them. But when and if they choose to act this way, its about them, NOT GOD.

keep thinking!
blessings
Doc

ps. June, loved your "balloon man" story!

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/21/2002 10:07 AM (GMT -6)

What a WONDERFUL conversation! I never got over here before. You all do so well, I'm not sure that I have anything to add. Doc's "heart" for this is very evident. deal22000's heart for this, in this, is very evident too.

I'd like to slide a few observations in. I generally liked Doc's answer to where deal22000 said: "What if I decide there’s a God, but I don’t like him?" A different thought crossed my brain though. I think that it is reasonable--picking up on what June said about moral judgment--to conclude that if deal22000 REALLY is thinking/feeling/committing to that, that he IS (you ARE) seeking the REAL God, instead of some junk-mail version. One Christian mystic said that the person who runs the hardest away from God is really, in actuality, running directly to Jesus. Along this line, Doc said before: "Jesus Christ -- reveals that God DOES care about each of us on a personal level, with a passionate love. Indeed, he DIED FOR YOU that YOU might enter into an eternal, passionate relationship with him."

May I make one more observation. I'm afraid that it is actually pretty academic. But since Semeia tells me to make things plain, I'll try. OK?

Where deal22000 said: "Faith sounds desperate." I remembered the differences in the way a particular bible verse gets published, depending on the translation. For Hebrews 11:1 the NIV says, Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.. THAT version is very "decision" oriented. It kind of makes it sound as if the "certainty" is a measure of the degree or validity of faith. In honesty, since that version got going from influence of the Calvinist, Reformed denomination I go to, I wonder if the intent--at least a little bit--is to explain why some believe and others don't. Personally, I am uncomfortable with the black/white line between "certainty" and "uncertainness." Certainty", to me, sounds so intellectually located. Instead or the NIV, read what this one says (the NASB): "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.. But what I like even more is a version that I heard an Orthodox priest say: ...
the "evidence" of things unseen. The NASB (and the RSV too) seem to say by "conviction" that it is something outside myself that gives me the conviction. THAT removes faith from the arena of desperation (your comment: "Faith sounds desperate.") And the translation of "evidence" sounds to my ears like it is God himself that is the evidence. Unseen yes, but in relationship with me very real.

Well, just one more.... and even more academic I'm afraid.

deal22000: Yes, I know, I should go to the Omnibenevolence of God thread, but I didn’t want to intrude there. I can’t back up what I’m saying with Scripture or anything, but I will try to start learning that. I just am saying what I think, from what I’ve experienced in life.

PoW: Stick with the experience in life stuff!

PoW: On the Omnibenevolence of God thread, the VERY academic package that I recently delivered there -- and probably won't be interacted with on (which is OK) -- concerns three "levels" of how we can think about God. And I'd really like to lay them out here. I think that YOUR emphasis on the bottom level, of experience, and Doc's emphasis on the top level naturally go together VERY WELL! It is just that in conventional speech and historical God-talk... that the middle level gets inserted in a confusing way.

Simply, God PERSONALLY exists as three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. THAT is much more important, and much more knowable about God, and hence and much more the subject of our faith than any discussion of God's nature.

The Greek Orthodox theologian who's book I quoted from on that site maintains that trying to define God's nature (even the "good stuff" of OMNI-good, OMNI-knowing, OMNI-anything) straightjackets God by telling him what he has to do and how he has to do it. IT'S BACKWARDS (from middle upwards to the top.

*speaking loudly now*

It is the PERSONAL LOVE of the three persons of the Trinity -- which is God's "mode of existence" -- that dictates the Essence/Nature of "what" God is. We humans can never know the Essence of God. But, we can personally experience the "Energies"/actions of God towards us, personally, in His Son, as the Holy Spirit (by the will of the Father) draws us near to His Love.

Leave the middle, with its polysyllabic ten-dollar words out of it. Go for the personal relationship with the Personal God who founded the very nature of relationships.

Don't settle for any junk-mail God. God created YOU a person. That gives you hope that there is a personal God. Don't let anyone else in the door.

Pow

===============
P.S. to June -- When you said, "I believe God being perfectly good is part of his nature. it is partially what makes God who he is. So to me he doesn't have a choice whether or not he wants to be good. he can't go against his own nature." THAT was a very common statement. But I'm saying above that we REALLY need to rethink about saying it.

I don't think that it is true, or worthy of God to say that "he doesn't have a choice whether or not he wants to be good"

I think it IS God's choice. His personal choice, in accordance with his mode of being. But it is beyond our ability to predict what God will do. And there comes into play all the fine things that doc says so well about God choosing the best, and about how at the end the reasons will become apparent.

Thanks.

Edited by - potonwheel on 01/21/2002 3:14:06 PM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/21/2002 11:01 AM (GMT -6)

POW

i truly believe that good cannot choose whether he wants to be good or not. he might be able to choose a 'lesser good', but not anything that is not 'good'. for God to choose against this would be for God to go against his own nature. which to me, can't happen.

i am willing to be convinced otherwise....

June

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/21/2002 11:40 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
POW

i truly believe that good cannot choose whether he wants to be good or not. he might be able to choose a 'lesser good', but not anything that is not 'good'. for God to choose against this would be for God to go against his own nature. which to me, can't happen.

i am willing to be convinced otherwise....

June

June, I hate pickiness. And I was being VERY picky above. But I think that the distinction between "cannot" and "does not" that I am making is not a straight across distinction. I don't think that they are comparable. But I make the picky distinction because they are often compared. (and it often results in problems.)

Try this:

quote:
Basil says:
"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."

I think that when we say that God IS GOOD, in the way I saw you do, we are saying something about his "Essence" -- which we can not know. (above) This is diffent from where in some church liturgies it is said "He is a good God and loveth mankind" which means to me that He does good, and shows us his character/person in loving acts. We can not know God in Essence, but we can know God in his "opperations". (above)

Now, here is an important one:

"If we accept evaluative definitions of the Godhead, we make the personal distinctives of divine love subordinate to them, and consequently do away with it."

If we say that God is good and therefore he CANNOT make choices -- does not have free will -- we run into error.In the language of Yannaras above, we "subordinate" the Person(s) of God to a description. Even worse, to our own ideas of what those descriptions mean. God the Trinity is one in essence and three in persons. But straightjacketing the persons leaves us with a diety resmbling the pagan ones. The "Opennes" debators accuse the "classical" debators of having a frozen God who foreknew a blueprint and is not bound to it. (roughly speaking) The time-avoiding "God" of the Latin theologians presents problems. And it seems to stem back to this very issue you and I are discussing.

This says the same thing:

"being stems not from the essence, which would make it an ontological necessity, but from the person and the freedom of its love which 'hypostasizes' being into a personal and trinitarian communion..."

And:

If we accept evaluative definitions of the Godhead, we make the personal distinctives of divine love subordinate to them, and consequently do away with it. Evaluative categories could refer only to nature or essence, but then personal distinctiveness would be subordinated to the necessity imposed by natural definitions, and consequently, once again, it would be non-existant or substantially curtailed.. In that case, the person of God would "undergo" whatever happened to the nature.

from Christos Yannaras' "The Freedom of Morality",
(Ch. 1 -- The Masks of Morality and the Ethos of the Person, pp. 16-18)

Gotta run!

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/21/2002 11:45 AM (GMT -6)

june: ...but for God to go against his own nature. which to me, can't happen.

PoW: "You" can "cough"; but "coughs" can't "you."

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/21/2002 5:47 PM (GMT -6)

POW

you lost me somewhere in your post, but essentially you're saying that God could really choose sin?

June

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/21/2002 7:03 PM (GMT -6)

June: essentially you're saying that God could really choose sin?

PoW: NO. God is not made out of love. "made out of" is Essence. But because the "mode of existence" of God is personal, trinitarian love, God loves. god's mode of existence as Trinity dictates his loving (moving from left to right in the diagram below); rather than "what God is made of--whih in effect is what you said first--dictating who he is.

PERSON/"Hypostasis".......Divine Essence.......Uncreated Energies

We do not know or experience God in his Essence. The exception is Christ, who is both man and has seen the Father. We can, though, know God in a personal, direct relationship. We can both know his Love and have the direct fruit of the Spirit transforming us:

quote:
We discover, therefore, one God the Father Almighty with His one unique Son (Image and Word) and His one Holy Spirit. There is one living God with His one perfect divine Life, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Life. There is one True God with His one divine Truth, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Truth. There is one wise and loving God with His one Wisdom and Love, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Wisdom and Love. The examples could go on indefinitely: the one divine Father personifying every aspect of His divinity in His one divine Son, who is personally activated by His one divine Spirit. We will see the living implications of the Trinity as we survey the activity of God in his actions toward man and the world.
(Fr. Thomas Hopko, Dean, St. Vladimir's Orth. Sem.)

Short or long version, its importance rises from what can go wrong if it is messed up.

You quipped--maybe to get my attention--that I perhaps meant that God could sin. And of course not. But "what can go wrong" is illustrated when people actually believe that God can not be involved with time--related to foreknowledge. It does matter.

Thanks

PoW

62 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 5:53 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual