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Hey Modes, just wondering if you would take a longer look at what I was saying. Thanks for the reply.

Firstly, It seems that we could be talking about the same thing but just in different ways. You are right when you talk of life being one success or failure after another but when one fails in light of the grace of God we seek restoration not greater animosity. For example when I burn a CD that I know is protected by copy write law, does it bother me? Yes it does. Now burning a CD seems harmless enough but if the small amount of deceit goes unchecked in my life as a failure I may begin manifesting other deceitful tendencies which show 1) I don’t have love for my neighbor (even though that neighbor may be Bill Gates, an abundantly wealthy man who wouldn’t miss a few dollars as a result of my act) and 2) that I don’t have love for God since he wants me to act in submission to authority, though in this case, earthly as it may be.

The heavy hitters throughout Church history of which we have been speaking could very well be exhibiting the same unchecked character like the example above. By what spirit did these men seek the death of so many as the last resort as opposed to the more gentile, persevering, self abasing, enduring nature of love. Would they not rather seek restitution and harmony than torture and death? The political alliance that the church found with Constantine put many of an ecclesiastical persuasion in a power seat of sorts this could very well work itself out over the years in the same manner as the example above but with a much viler outcome. One quote, “The Empire had a vested interest in the unity of the church, which Constantine hoped would become the ‘cement of the Empire.’ Thus, the state began to use its power to force theological agreement on Christians. Many of the dissident views that were thus crushed may indeed have threatened the very core of the Christian message” (Gonzalez, Justo L., The History of Christianity, Vol. I, Harper San Fransisco, 1984: P 159).

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WE TOO EASILY FOLLOW WHEN SOMEONE ELSE CONDEMNS.

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[imghttp://bobdylanbiography.8k.com/images/dylan_cd_covers/slow_train_coming.jpg" border="0">

. . .

But you're gonna have to serve somebody,
yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil
or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

'Gotta Serve Somebody' SLOW TRAIN COMING '79.

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A rod which parted the sea prefigured the trophy of the Cross, through which we by faith sail the troubled water of life undrowned, escape all the streams of sin and are filled with divine calm.

When Moses made the bitter waters sweet with wood, he prefigured your grace, O Cross; for we too have been delivered from the bitterness of evils by your power; therefore as we now greet you lovingly, make us sweet by compunction of soul.

Godlike Elissaios once drew the iron from a river with wood, from long ago foreshadowing you, all-honoured Cross. For we who through you have also been drawn out of the abyss of error to sure faith are today counted worthy to behold you and to worship you in faith to all the ages.

. . . . . . . . .

The Cross is the harbour of the storm-tossed, guide and support of the wandering, glory of Christ, strength of Apostles and Prophets, boast of Champions, refuge of all mortals. As we all see it set fourth in the midst, we greet it with loving devotion.

When you are about to come on earth to judge the world which you fashioned, Lord, with the Angelic hosts marching ahead and the Cross shining out more brightly than the beams of the sun, take pity on me by its power and save me who fallen more than all mortals.

. . . . . . . . .


When the Cross was fixed in the earth, the fall of demons came about. As we see it now gloriously set forth and as we greet it lovingly we rise up from the sin of our falls.

As we praise you, God and King and Lord, we now embrace with joy the Cross which you have given us as an unbreachable wall and are delivered from perils.

The Cross of the Lord, which grants us all great gifts, appears set forth. Mortals, let us approach, as we draw from it enlightenment of heart and soul.

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Monks of Mesopotamia
(4th Century Egyptian Monastic Influence in Mesopotamia -- as Orthodox monks had to flee the punishing influence of the Arians via governmental pressures.)
www.geocities.com/barhanna2001/monksmeso.html


The Life of Saint Basil the Great, Archbishop of Caesarea
www.stbasil.com/patron.htm

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Theological Purges


Athanasias became the Bishop of Alexandria in 330 AD. He was a theological warrior against heretics such as Arian and Eustathis. It caused as response from Constantinople which was under the influence of Arians and Meletines who had been anathematized by Athanatias. Even before the rise to power by the confrontational bishop of Alexandria there were efforts to bring Egyptian Christians into conformity. Experimentation among monks and clergy began to build to a climax after 313 AD and the Edict of Milan. Constantine tried to bring the Church under his control. He offered protection to the Church and in return wanted the Church leadership to deliver him stability and loyalty.


Eventually even the desert was no protection. While political and economic assaults on the populace drove people out of the cities the monks were not immune from theological attacks. Monks left Egypt as part of the Arian theological controversies that divided and plagued the monks in at least three waves of purges through the 4th century. The first purge seems to have begun around the year 320 AD when St. Augin and his band of disciples headed north and east to Nisibis and Mt. Izla.


The second purge occurred after immediately after Athanatias became bishop of Alexandria around the year 330. The Meletines challenged the legitimacy of his election. Constantinople was under the influence of Arian bishops who in turn turned their hatred against Athanatias of Alexandria. The complaining Meletines aligned themselves with the Arians to try to oust the bishop of Alexandria. To attack his power base, enforcers of the Arian backlash confiscated property, imposed fines and imprisonment, and physically beat up those under the bishop. This included urban monks, priests, and even ascetics living near the villages and towns, the suburban monks. This was the second theological purge which occurred in the early 330’s.


Mesopotamia became a place of refuge beyond the reach of Alexandrian inquisitors. Also it was the source of many heretical leaders. In a kind of counter attack, the monks of Egypt may have gone to upper Mesopotamia to convert and correct the heretical foundations. Yet when many of these monks got to Nisibis at the foot of Mt. Izla, they found people such as Jacob of Nisibis and St. Ephrem who were quite untainted by heresy. The Egyptian missionaries for the most part turned their attentions to the Mithrian and Zoroastrian pagans of the eastern and northern regions.


Emperor Julian (Julianos), who later became Julian the Apostate, was purging the monastic communities of Egypt on the pretense of heresy. He used military powers to collect taxes, extort money from followers of Athanatias. We know these events occurred around 357-362 AD during the Egyptian campaign to enforce the political and religious concerns of the empire. It was a time when Athanatias went into exile for the third time, which was the third major purge.

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gguskid: It seems as though you and others assume that what appears as NOT love (various acts of killing) must not necessarily be NOT love.

Modes: I and others do not assume that all that appears unloving (evil) is in fact unloving (evil).

Electra: My concern with the subject of this thread is not over whether particular teachings and/or practices in church history are loving or unloving. My concern is rather over the impulse to excuse ourselves from aspects of church history we deem unloving rather than taking responsibility for the past and working toward reconciliation for the future (PLEASE NOTE: working toward reconciliation does not PRECLUDE identifying unloving teachings and/or practices in church history, but rather PRESUPPOSES doing so).

Jesus did not fear or resent being associated with sinners. Though the disciples frequently attempted to turn people away from Jesus, he always prevented them from succeeding. The disciples thought they were doing Jesus a favor, and they were confused and sometimes scandalized by who Jesus associated with. We tend to romanticize these sinners, but let’s be realistic. Were all the prostitutes Jesus hung out with “hookers with hearts of gold,” or is it possible that some of them spread diseases and ruined marriages? And what about the wealthy tax collectors who made a living by exploiting their own people for the sake of the Empire?

Jesus’ love was not overcome by evil (i.e. by romanticizing it to make it seem more excusable, or by refusing to be associated with it for the sake of securing his own reputation), but rather overcame evil with good: he forgave sinners and challenged them to go and sin no more. Though he himself was innocent, he took responsibility for the sin of the whole world.

Some words from Bonhoeffer:

The only profitable relationship to others—and especially to our weaker brethren—is one of love, and that means the will to hold fellowship with them. God himself did not despise humanity, but became man for men’s sake.

I believe that God can and will bring good out of evil, even out of the greatest evil.…I believe that even our mistakes and shortcomings are turned to good account, and that it is no harder for God to deal with them than with our supposedly good deeds.

[T]he ruler of history repeatedly beings good out of evil over the heads of the history-makers.…We will not and must not be either outraged critics or opportunists, but must take our share of responsibility for the molding of history in every situation and at every moment, whether we are the victors or the vanquished. One who will not allow any occurrence whatever to deprive him of his responsibility for the course of history—because he knows that it has been lain on him by God—will thereafter achieve a more fruitful relation to the events of history than that of barren criticism and equally barren opportunism. To talk of going down fighting like heroes in the face of certain defeat is not really heroic at all, but merely a refusal to face the future. The ultimate question for a responsible man to ask is not how he is to extricate himself heroically from the affair, but how the coming generation is to live. It is only from this question, with its responsibility towards history, that fruitful solutions can come, even if for the time being they are very humiliating. In short, it is much easier to see a thing through from the point of view of abstract principle than from that of concrete responsibility.

Electra

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8

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Gus, in your post you mentioned both the state-church and the monastics. You emphasized the state-church. Its a matter of what emPHASis to put on which. You choose the former. Personally I find the divide very unhelpful. Do you fail to find ANY Emperors who tried to serve the Lord? Be speciific. Do you fail to find ANY Patriarchs who are of note? Be specific.

To my eyes you still merely panned everything.

Al

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Port-au-Prince has the highest concentration of millionaires in the Caribbean. The Haitian government has been dubbed a “cleptocracy,” because officials keep foreign aid to themselves, without distributing it to the people. Aid that arrives as food is sold for a profit or simply rots in warehouses. Until recently, the government insisted in approving all clerical appointments from the Vatican, establishing a medieval bond between the powers of church and state.

In spite of the fact church power was commandeered to reinforce political power, the Catholic radio station, Radio Soleil, risked mild criticism of the government. But in 1983, the Pope helped open the door to more direct activism and resistance. He refused to visit unless the Haitian government reversed its policy on approving prominent Church positions. In front of tens of thousands of people, with Duvalier (the self-declared “President-for-Life” of the Haitian people) beside him, the Pope spoke forcefully about “the deep need for justice” in Haitian society.

The newspapers were censored, so the Pope’s speech was never published. Instead, a government official’s scathing rebuttal implied a possible repeat of the assassination of Archbishop Romero in El Salvador if clerical opposition continued. Nonetheless, as a violent response to conscientious clerics invites the reproach of the industrialized world, the Haitian government was gradually being forced into tolerating open disagreement from the clergy, whether they liked it or not.

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• "ANY Emperors who tried to serve the Lord? Be speciific.
  


• ANY Patriarchs who are of note? Be specific.

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I did not ask for 'negatives' (as your answer to me suggested: a "blak list of names"). Rather, I asked you pointedly for a possitive list (a white list?) of names

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Servetus: "The Word was a disposition of God, who begot the Son, a visible being."

Servetus: "The Word was an actual being ... manifesting God in bodily form."

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