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|  OrthodoxBerean Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 82 | Posted 11/27/2002 3:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | In Mark 13 Jesus said that he did not know the day or hour of the return
My question is how can Jesus as a complete person know and now kow at the same time unles he somehow had two seperate minds? If there is one mind does nto not violate the law of non contradiction?
Also, is omniscience a necessay or contingent attribute of God? It seems that if the later is true than there would be an easy way to explain Mark 13 but if the former is true than the passage seems very difficult to understand
Can someone help me through this?
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 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 11/27/2002 4:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | Given that I believe Jesus laid down certain attributes of deity I see no problem in his not knowing. He regained the knowledge when he returned to heaven.
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 |  OrthodoxBerean Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 82 | Posted 11/27/2002 7:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Given that I believe Jesus laid down certain attributes of deity I see no problem in his not knowing. He regained the knowledge when he returned to heaven.
Would you then say that omniscience is not a necessary attribute but a contingent one?
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 11/27/2002 9:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Why think that God is metaphysically bound by what finite human minds deem "necesary"?
What I mean is, Christian theology must give revelation primacy. If the Bible teaches that Jesus didn't know something, then, to the extent that one decides to be biblical, one will need to affirm that Jesus didn't know something. If that indicates that Jesus didn't have omniscience which in turn indicates that omniscience is not necessary, then so be it--philisophical reasoning notwithstanding.
This is only one of the many paradoxical conundrums that arise from the incarnation. Step back and look at the bigger issue, how can God, a necessary being, become human, a contingent being? You have exactly the same problem with regard to omnipresence and omnipotence as well.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/27/2002 9:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | This issue, of Christ's "ignorance" is very real. He really did learn and grow, and experience ignorance. As Theodore the Studite wrote:
quote: "The Inconceivable is conceived in the womb of a Virgin; the unmeasurable becomes three cubits high; the Unqualifiable acquires a quality; the Undefinable stands up, sits down, and lies down; He who is everywhere is put into a crib; He who is above time gradually reaches the age of twelve; He who is formless appears with the shape of a man; and the Incorporal enters into a body. . . Therefore, He is describable and indescribable"
His ignorance was real. That's because his experience of his humanity was that complete. "Fully man." Yet, that does not mean that he ever ceased to be "fully God" either. And I think though it might be tempting to reduce one or the other for comfort or convenience sake, we should not. Because, HE did not!
On the thread Christology: The Unchartered Openness Issue" there is posted this quote:
quote: In de sectus (anon.) "Most Fathers admitted that Christ was ignorant of certain things, since He is in all things consubstantial with us, and since we ourselves our ignorant of certain things, it is clear that Christ also suffered ignorance. Scripture says about Christ: 'He progressed in age and wisdom' Luke 2:52.; this means that He was learning what He did not previously know.." Meyendorff in continuing... Obviously, Byzantine theologians are authentically concerned about recognizing in Christ our fallen humanity, but their minds are less clear about the moment when, in Jesus, this humanity became the transfigured, perfect, and "natural" humanity of the New Man. (p.157)
It's interesting that the emphasis there is on the future of our humanity, becoming "transfigured" into the "New Man," and not a debate about how man-like or God-like Christ was.
I think that in the fun of internet discussions I can too easily loose sight of that.
Some more Meyendorff (did a lot of eccumenical writing and committee work on the WCC, and a seminary dean) might give interesting reference:
quote: From John Meyendorff's "Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends and Doctrinal Themes" (Fordham Univ. Press). Chapter 2: The Christilogical Issue, (pp.38-39)
In Christ, human nature is united with the hypostasis of the Logos and, while remaining fully itself, is liberated from sin, the source of which is the gnomic will. Because it is "en-hypostasized" in the Logos Himself, Christ's humanity is perfect humanity. In the mysterious process which started with His conception in the Virgin's womb, Jesus passes through natural growth, ignorance, suffering, and even death -- all of them experiences of the fallen humanity which He had come to save -- and He fulfilled through the resurrection the ultimate human destiny. Christ could thus be truly the savior of humanity because in Him there could never be any contradiction between natural will and gnomic will. Through the hypostatic union, His human will, precisely because it always conforms itself to the divine, also performs the "natural movement" of human nature.
The doctrine of "deification" in Maximus is based upon the fundamental patristic presupposition that communion with God does not diminish or destroy humanity, but makes it fully human. In Christ the hypostatic union implies the communication of idioms (perichoresis ton idiomaton). The characteristics of divinity and humanity express themselves "in communion with each other" (Calcedon definition), and human actions, or "energies," have God Himself as their personal agent. It can be said, therefore, that "God was born," that Mary is the Theotokos, and that the "Logos was crucified" -- which birth and death remain purely human realities. But it can and must be said that a man rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father, having acquired characteristics which "naturally" belong to God alone; immortality and glory. Through Christ's humanity, deified according to its hypostatic union with the Logos, all members of the Body of Christ have access to "deification" by grace through the operation of the Spirit in Christ's Church.
The essential elements of Maximian Christology provide the permanent terminological and philosophical framework for Byzantine thought and spirituality. They were adopted, together with the Trinitarian doctrine of the great Cappadocian Fathers, in The Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith of John of Damascus.(first half of the eighth century), which served as a standard doctrinal textbook in Byzantium. They also provided the most authoritative frame of reference in most of the doctrinal controversies which arose in the East during the Middle Ages.
Good stuff!
WHAT THAT SAYS IS THIS: That since man is made in God's image, even dispite sin, it is "natural" for us to conform to God. (It is sin that is 'unnatural!') That explains how the incarnation could work without some funny-business like Christ having to hold back part of his divinity. Christ's God-nature could be fully God, and his Man-nature fully man. He could be fully ignorant, and also the Wisdom of God--the Word. And it was not problem. And the crux is what is written in Meyendorff above: that in that union the divine did not in any way contradict the human, or over power it!
I WONDER WHETHER IN MOST DISCUSSIONS OF THIS THE CONCERN RESTS IN FEARING THAT THE DIVINE NECESSARILY WOULD OVERPOWER THE HUMAN. What do you think? If that is the concern, then limiting the divine would seem a necessary answer. And all the thinking-contortions that go with it. But... Maybe that is not necessary.
The empasis NEEDS to be on the completeness of Christ's EXPERIENCE of our humanity, and (Now, mind you, I believe in impassability.) on Calvary, the identification of the divine Word with the very real experience of human hell. What? (That's what you are saying; right?) God could not suffer any more than he could die. They are together. YET, because God Personally (Sanders goes at least half way down this road in Risks.) LOVES us. He FREELY loves us. God's Person is not a derivative of his nature (so the Orthodox say). God, though impassible, loved, chose to sacrifice and die, and KNEW the abandonment from Trinitarian Love that by his nature he can't experience. But he KNOWS!
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I'm going to take a break.
Fred
(I'm not Orthodox. I go to a Christian Reformed Church. But I'm enjoying this discussion.) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/27/2002 9:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | a note: quote: ...the communication of idioms (perichoresis ton idiomaton). The characteristics of divinity and humanity express themselves "in communion with each other" (Calcedon definition),
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 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 11/27/2002 10:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | I believe it is contingent when God is human...
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/27/2002 11:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | I "crossed paths" with you, Modes. (Welcome back!)
Good point you made.
The focus is on the mission.
Since, therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. For surely it was not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect ... to make expiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted (Heb 2:9-18).
Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/27/2002 11:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | honorman, I'll buy what you say about "contingent" (I'm not to familiar with the term) IF it does not interfere with the perichoresis of the Trinity.
As to his ignorance: As a man Jesus experienced all normal and natural human experiences such as growth and development, ignorance and learning, hunger, thirst, fatigue, sorrow, pain, and disappointment. He also knew human temptation, suffering, and death. He took these things upon himself "for us men and for our salvation." (Hopko)
I see what Modes means when he says that the ignorance question is just part of, and the same thing as, the basic matter of the incarnation. (No pun intended. )
quote: Modes: Step back and look at the bigger issue, how can God, a necessary being, become human, a contingent being? You have exactly the same problem with regard to omnipresence and omnipotence as well.
Fred
Edited by - fred on 11/27/2002 6:27:02 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/27/2002 1:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | Has anyone given thought, lately, to the fact that the same Son who 'walked on the water' also held its hydrogen and oxygen molecules together?
BOTH of those, would, I think, qualify as non-necessary (as contingent); would they not?
From that rises the fact that way back with Maxumus the Confessor THREE Incarnations of the Word are identified: the Creation, the revealed Word, and Christ. Kallistos (Timothy) Ware points out that GOD'S RISK began with Creation! | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 11/28/2002 4:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | OB-
Omniscience has historically (and I think correctly) been believed to be a necessary attribute of God. For God to not believe what is true or to believe what is false would make God less than omniscient and other than perfect in knowledge.
I could be wrong, but I also think the two-minds view of Christ has historically been the prevalent view. If this view is the correct one, then there doesn’t seem to be a problem right? It’s only if the incarnate Christ is believed to have possessed one indivisible mind that the question of his not knowing something appears to pose a problem for omniscience, right?
Any “one-mind” advocates out there want to address this?
Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 11/28/2002 4:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Wow, I posted without noticing how many others posted since yesterday! Just to tag onto what Modes says, "biblical" does indeed begin with what is "revealed" and then go from there. Still (to refer to something we discussed, and that Alan nicely summarized, about the role of "reason" in it all, since we cannot meaningfully embrace or live what we ourselves admit to be self-contradictory...I think you know where I'm going), it's precisely because of what is revealed...
a) God knows all there is to know b) Jesus is God c) Jesus didn't know something there was to know
...that we have an apparent difficulty, right? So OB's question is good. Something that's revealed, namely, "Jesus didn't know something" is clear. Jesus did not know the day or hour of his return. And something else that's revealed is clear, namely, "God knows the day and hour of Jesus' return" and "Jesus is God." How to fit these together is NOT revealed.
To make it even more confusing, if we argue from 1(2?)Peter that the day and hour of Jesus' return is not eternally determined in the mind of God, that we impact the timetable, then how might this affect our understanding of what Jesus is saying about the Father, for there IS no certain day or hour of Jesus' return? Wouldn't we have to understand Jesus to be saying something more akin to, "The Father alone reserves the right to decide when the moment is right for me to return (i.e., the Father alone keeps track of that one)", in which case this saying of Jesus draws us in even more deeply into the mystery of the Trinity than does it if it's only about "omniscience" per say?
With honorman, I don't see a problem with Jesus not knowing something and still being divine. Though I think omniscience is a necessary attribute of God, God was not limited to the incarnate Christ.
Just thinking out loud, Tom
"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred
Edited by - TGB on 11/28/2002 9:47:47 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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