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notrinity
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   Posted 12/25/2002 2:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Trinitarians believe that God is one in three persons. Thus when they read Exodus 3:, "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," they say that this God is the Trinity God. But I find it fallacious because in Acts 3:13 it says, "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus..." If the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is Trinity God, then it follows that this Trinity God has a Son/Servant whose name is Jesus!

Another thing. The Trinitarians believe that God's essential nature is that of Triunity. To them, the ONLY TRUE GOD is essentially Triune. Now, when Jesus said of the Father, "that they may know thee the only true God" (John 17:3), does it mean that the Father (being the ONLY TRUE GOD) Triune?

Trinitarians should better explain these fallacies or else discard the doctrine of Trinity.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/25/2002 4:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Trinitarians should better explain these fallacies or else discard the doctrine of Trinity.


I'm not sure that notrinity want's to be convinced. But maybe that's OK.

See: www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html


What IS important that God became incarnate "for us men and for our salvation..." That's from the Nicene Creed:

quote:
Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.

And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


Salvation is very, very important. Its worth both explaining and pursuing.

And as to your confusion about "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac"... you are not really confused. It is common sometimes either to speak of "God" directing attention towards the Father (of whom the Son is consubstantial) OR to the Godhead in entirety. But there are certain disctinctions that have a need for keeping them straight. But that's for another time.

(Remember, "traditionalism" is the dead faith of living people; and "tradition" is the living faith of those who are with the Lord.)

Al


Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 12/25/2002 9:47:13 PM
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Starkman
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   Posted 12/26/2002 3:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello notrinity,

The Bible is very clear about God. There are three persons called God in Scripture: a person called the Father, a person called the Son, and a person called the Holy Spirit. Each shows themselves all over the place in Scripture as acting as and like God.

Scripture is equally clear that there is only one God. This isn't fallacy, contradiction or anything else. It's simply the way the Bible presents God. It's simply, according to the Bible, the way God exists. That the Son became flesh is clear. That He "emptied" Himself of that which would be norm for Him when operating as God is clear (Philippians ch 2). There's nothing confusing about this. What is confusing is when we don't wish to accept the concept because it goes against the grain of how and what we are as humans; one person in one body. But that God doesn't exist like this isn't contraditory. It's just how He exists.

For the more and more understanding of God,

Starkman

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honorman
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   Posted 12/26/2002 5:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting name! Is your alias NotBuddha? Or NotAllha?

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honorman
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   Posted 12/26/2002 5:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

As my pastor said in a sermon on John 1:1, God is infinite. We are finite. As such we should expect him to exist in a way that we do not fully understand.




Oh by the way, a good book on the Trinity is James White's The Forgotten Trinity. Might want to pick it up...

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notrinity
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   Posted 12/26/2002 6:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I appreciate your effor to explain to me the doctrine of Trinity, but I guess you're not (im saying this with sarcasm) being honest to yourselves. For example, in Hebrews 1:9, it says, "Therefore God, thy God..." In Heb. 1:8 the Father addressed the Son as God. In verse 9, He said to the Son, "Thy God." Would you say that God has no God when it is clear that God the Son has God?

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Starkman
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   Posted 12/26/2002 11:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
notrinity,

You missed the very point of Hebrews 1:9! The simple, clear and plain meaning is that the Father is called God and the Son is called God.

The Father and the Son are called God
There is only one God
The Father and the Son are the one God

let's look at the whole passage from Hebrews 1:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.
And,
You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord,and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. And they will all grow old like a garment, and like a robe you will fold them up and like a garment they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never run out.
(Bold added)

Notrinity, it's clear. Maybe not too easy to understand, but that's irrelevant. I think what's throwing you is that the Father seems to be saying that He's superior to or better than the Son. But that's not the issue here at all. It simply can't be. There's only one God, and both parties call themselves (or are called by each other) God.

There is, however, something to be said about the concept of the WAY this existance works, for lack of better words; the Father has always been God and has always been in that place of the One who wills. The Son has always been God and has always been in the place of the One who insures that will of the Father is foremost. Finally, the Holy Spirit (though not mentioned in the Hebrews passage) has always been God and has executed the will of the Father in view of the Son's directive.

This isn't something to confuse us and have us going, "Well, rats, if the Father wills, then the Son isn't willing; so he's not God." It's already been established in Scripture that the Son is in fact God. So what you have (in my best attempt here to elucidate) is the functionality of the One God; He is three persons, if you will, who are One in essence and eternity, and there seems to be a method to their madness! Remember, this isn't the way we humans function, but it doesn't mean that God cannot function this way.

You have every right to believe that there is no Trinity, but you cannot escape the fact that Scripture clearly shows One God, three persons; the three persons must therefore be the One God.

Classic example:
Isaiah 45:23 - I solemnly make this oath what I say is true and reliable: 'Surely every knee will bow to me, every tongue will solemnly affirm . . . ." This is God Almighty speaking. Paul, however, comes along in Philippians 2 and applies the very verse to Jesus: As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow
—in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess
to the glory of God the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord.


Now listen, you (not you personally, but you in the sense of everyone) may not like this, but it's really not honest and sincere to monkey with texts like this in order to get them to mean something other than what the plain, simple, and clear language indicates.

John 1:1 is another. How much more clear can the verse be? For that matter, how else could John have said what is so clearly said: the Word was God, the Word was with God. "Well, this just can't be," and so there's attempts to say, "Well, Jesus was created first and then created everything after Himself?" Really? Was God having to sit around waiting until He created Jesus one day before He created anything else? Or, more clearly, do we not see that to try and make the text state that all things were created by Jesus, but Jesus was created first is to put a timeline of limitation on God, for He is no longer eternal? He must have had a beginning, because He is forced to have created one thing first before another. Not just one thing (Jesus), but the very FIRST thing God could ever create. What time was this? When did it happen? How long was it that God didn't create anything because He hadn't yet created Jesus? Or, rather, as the text says, The Word was with God, the Word was God.

A futher look into John 1:1 per Greg Koukl at Stand to Reason (str.org) http://www.str.org/free/solid_ground/SG0007.htm

I have only come across two rejoinders to this proof for Jesus' deity. Each is so weak it merely serves to bolster our argument. The first goes something like this. "Wait a minute, Greg. You didn't read the verse carefully. You missed something in the text. Notice the phrase 'apart from Him.' The apostle excludes Jesus from the count in this verse. If you said, 'Apart from Billy, the whole family is going to Disneyland' you wouldn't mean that Billy wasn't part of the family, just that he wasn't included in the count. Every member of the family is going to Disneyland with the exception of Billy. In the same way, every created thing was created by Jesus with the exception of Jesus Himself. Jehovah created Jesus first, then Jesus created everything else."

Note that this rebuttal turns on the ability to replace "apart from Him" with the phrase "excluding Jesus." Allegedly they're synonymous. OK, let's try the replacement and see what happens. The verse then looks like this: "With the exception of Jesus, nothing came into being that has come into being."

If your brow is furrowed trying to figure this out, I'm not surprised. The reconstructed phrase is nearly nonsense. Strictly speaking, it means that Jesus is the only created thing that exists. Read it again and see for yourself. Obviously, the phrase "apart from Jesus" can't mean "with the exception of Jesus." These phrases are not synonymous.

"Apart from Him" means something entirely different. It means "apart from His agency." It's the same as saying, "Apart from me you'll never get to San Diego. I've got the car." Apart from Jesus' agency nothing came into being that has come into being. Why? Because Jesus is the Creator. He is God. That makes perfect sense in the context.

The second attempt at refutation comes from a handful of more sophisticated Arians who know better than to lean on the bent reed of the first rejoinder. They go back to the opening phrase "In the beginning" and note that it is anarthrous, that is, it has no article in the original Greek. Since John merely writes "In beginning" he could be meaning "in a beginning."

Jehovah created Jesus, the story goes, at some indeterminate time in the past. Then after some unspecified second beginning ("a beginning"), He created everything else through Jesus. The details of verse three apply only to what happens after this second beginning. That's the argument. . . . Nothing in the details of the text itself suggests this alternate translation.

Further, it strains at a gnat and swallows a camel. A focus on the gnat in verse one misses the camel two verses later. The phrases "all things" and "nothing" in verse three admit of no time restrictions. It's clear from the text that Jesus is God.


Well, I gotta run. I'm off work now (only a temp job, but I'm hoping it goes permenant!)

Thanks,

Starkman




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honorman
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   Posted 12/26/2002 11:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think one of the problems here is the confusion of catagories. Notrinity seems to assume that because one person of the Trinity is talking about another person of the Trinity there is more than one God. But that is a confusion of essense with personhood. There is only one God (essense) but within that essense there are three persons, not three essenses. One what (what they are) and three whos.
I do think, though, that Starkman is making a very valid point. A person cannot, in all honesty, accept the Bible and not believe in the Trinity. The Bible teaches a truine God.
Notrinity, I would be interested in knowing your view of who God is, as opposed to a trinitarian view. I would add that it isn't that we are not being honest with ourselves. I would suggest you are not being honest with what the text says. If the Bible does teach three persons are the one God, then we must accept that it teaches it, even if we don't believe it is true.

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notrinity
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   Posted 12/26/2002 6:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
I appreciate your effor to explain to me the doctrine of Trinity, but I guess you're not (im saying this with sarcasm) being honest to yourselves.


Oh, my! My apologies. If what I really meant was "with sarcasm" I should have not inserted that parenthetical note. What I should have written was "im NOT saying this with sarcasm). Please forgive me.

Well, concerning my view of God, I will post it here later.
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SeanG
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   Posted 12/27/2002 7:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This paper was done for a Jehovah’s Witness at a site… we were debating the topic, but he kept mis-interpreting the doctrine, so this paper was written to clarify terms and understanding… I end with an example for thjis JW to chew on.
    The Trinity
What I am attempting to do: I am going to try to define the doctrine of the Trinity. I will do this by isolating examples, analogies, and statements by (for the most part) modern Christian theologians. Why modern? Because this doctrine isn’t the easiest to comprehend, so modern language and examples seem fitting for the modern mind. Also, I will define other theologies commonly mistaken with the concept of the Trinity.

What I am not attempting to do: I will not defend this doctrine wholly; I want merely to define it. The reader must enter into the following posts not to attack what is here, but to accept these definitions, and then use these definitions in later posts. I want to stress that this doctrine isn’t 100% explainable either. A strong element of mystery (and an equally strong possibility of misunderstanding) will always be present when considering God’s “threeness” because we have no adequate word in English to express the nature of the different existences within the Godhead. This is not a cop-out, by far, instead, it recognizes that trying to reduce God to finite concepts is an exercise in futility. But I will define all this in the following paper.

The Shema
This is probably thee most known verse to the religious Jew. It comes from Deuteronomy 6:4, and simply reads: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (NKJV). I will come back to this verse, but I want to throw the proverbial cog into this statement. In Isaiah 6:8 we find the prophet Isaiah was commissioned to his ministry by non-other than God. Isaiah heard God say, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” Likewise in Genesis we find man being made in the image of God, but God specifically states, “in our image… in our likeness.”

So what about this Shema then? Doesn’t this verse in Deuteronomy make it plain and simple that the concept of the Trinity is the invention of man? It would seem that way, but lets pick this verse apart a little more, and then we’ll move on. This verse may seem to contradict the doctrine of the Trinity, but in fact, it does exactly the opposite. The word “one” used to express this fundamental doctrine is the Hebrew word “ehad,” [or, echad – “compound unity; united one] which means not one in isolation but one in unity. The word “stresses unity while recognizing diversity within the oneness.” (Theological Workbook of the Old Testament, vol. 1, p.30) James Montgomery Boice tells us that “It is never used in the Hebrew Bible of a stark singular entity.” (Foundations of the Christian Faith, “The Sovereign God,” p.139). As a good example of its use, the Bible says that in God’s plan for interpersonal relationships within marriage, “A man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh” ( Genesis 2:24), a statement which could hardly mean that they become one person. Okay, now that I sparked some interest in this matter (hopefully), I will move on.

The Trinity Defined?

    God is one in essence, but three in persons. God has one nature, but three centers of consciousness. That is, there is only one what in God, but there are three whos. There is one it, but three “I”s. (When Cultists Ask, Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes)
This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contrary for Jesus to say that God was only one person but was also three persons, or that God is only one nature but that he had three natures. But to declare, as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence eternally revealed in three distinct persons is not a contradiction.

The three personal “substances” (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being “I” in relation to who are “you” and each partaking of the full divine essence (the “stuff” of deity, if we may dare call it that) along with the other two. They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism); the one God (“He”) is also, and equally, “they,” and they are always together and always cooperating, with the Father initiating, the Son complying, and the Spirit executing the will of both, which is also His will (Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs, by J. I. Packer).

Those were some attempts at formulas that go beyond the traditional “three in one, one in three” that Thomas Jefferson looked forward to seeing thrown out. So when Jesus is praying to the Father, He is not praying to Himself, but he is praying to God, in his human nature (I feel I have adequately explained the incarnation and the dual nature-ship of Christ in a previous few posts with Mughi3). Keep in mind that in Trinitarian thought, The Son is not the Father or Spirit, The Father is not the Son or Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Son or Father.

Jean-Jacques Rousseau even picked up on this fact when he said, “Can the Person whose history the Gospels relate be himself a man?… Yes, if the life and death of Socrates are those of a philosopher, the life and death of Jesus Christ are those of a God.” I will now give some analogies that may help conceptualize this concept – I will save the best (e.g., my favorite) for last. Keep in mind that these are interesting, but are not to be thought as providing a rationale of the divine being

Analogies
  • “Perhaps a better illustration of the Trinity is the illustration of light, heat and air. If you hold your hand out and look at it, each of these three things is present. There is light, because it is only by light that you can see your hand. In fact, even if the darkness of night should descend, there would still be light. There would be infrared light. Although you couldn’t see it, it could be picked up by special equipment. There is also heat between your head and hand. You may prove it by holding out a thermometer. It will vary as you go a cold from room to a warm room or from the outside to indoors. Finally there is air. You can blow on your hand and feel it. You can wave your hand and thus fan your face.”

    “The point is that each of these three – light, heat, and air – is distinct. Each obeys its own laws and may be studied separately. And yet, at the same time it is… impossible to have one without the others. They are three and yet they are one. Together they make up the environment in which we have our being.”
  • (Foundations of the Christian Faith: A Comprehensible & Readable Theology, by James Montgomery Boice.)

  • “Water may serve as a ‘three-in-one’ illustration since it retains its chemical activity whether solid, gas, or liquid state. There is also a triple point for water, a condition under ice, stream, and liquid water can coexist in equilibrium. All three are water, yet distinct from each other.

    The sun, its light, and its power may help illustrate the Trinity…. No one has actually seen the sun just as no one has seen the Father. Yet we learn a great deal about the sun by studying the sunlight just as we learn about the Father through Jesus Christ the Son who is the radiance of His glory (Heb. 1:3). We see the power of the sun as it is involved in the growth of seeds and trees and plants, and when asked what makes things grow, we say the sun does. The Holy Spirit is like the power of the sun and He is God.”
  • (Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide To Understanding Biblical Truth, by Charles C. Ryrie).

  • “In thinking about the triunity of God, we need to hold together the unity of the Godhead and its three-ness. Analogies, though always imperfect, are sometimes helpful in explaining difficult concepts. The following analogies show how something or someone can be both one and three at the same time. An example from nature is that of water: if water in a test tube is frozen at one end and heated at the other, the water in the test tube has three different “forms” – it is solid ice at one end, vapor or gas at the other and liquid in the middle. Another example from nature is the sun: it comes to us each day in three different “modes” – as light, as heat, and as energy. An example from human experience is that of a married person with a child: such a person is, at one and the same time, three different “persons” – someone’s son or daughter, a spouse’s husband or wife and a child’s father or mother.”
  • (The Compact Guide to the Christian Faith, by John Schwarz).
This next example is one of my favorites. I will build off of one of its concepts immediately after it. This is one of the best grouping of examples (analogies) that is experienced daily by us. You may have to read it a few times (slowly) to get the subject/object distinctions down, but it is well worth the read:
  • “(1) God the Father – the unseen source and cause of all things, (2) God the Son – who tangibly reveals the Father to man and who executes the will of God, and (3) God the Holy Spirit – who is (like the Father) unseen and yet reveals the Son to men, especially through the holy Scriptures that He inspired, making real in the hearts and lives of men the experience of fellowship with the Son and Father. This order, however, is not an order of importance or length of existence. All are equally eternal and equally God – one God…. The remarkable fact is that these relationships are beautifully patterned in the physical universe. Everything in this universe can be understood as functioning as a continuum of space, matter, and time. Space is the invisible, omnipresent background of all things, manifesting itself always and everywhere in phenomena of matter and/or energy, which are then interpreted and experience through time. These are analogous to the relationships in the Godhead between Father, Son, and Spirit; the one is a perfect model of the other.

    Note that the universe is a tri-universe. It is not part space, part time, and part matter (that would be a triad) but all space, all time and all matter (where matter includes energy, with matter/energy permeating all space and time). This is a true trinity.

    Furthermore, each component of this tri-universe is also a trinity. Space consists of three dimensions, each of which is equally important and occupies all space. There could be no space – no reality – if there were only two dimensions. All dimensions are necessary, yet there is just one space, and each dimension comprises the whole of space. Note that to calculate the amount of a given space, one does not add its three dimensions but multiplies them. Analogously, the mathematics of the divine Trinity is not 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 but rather 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Space is always identified in terms of one dimension but is only seen in two dimensions and experienced in three dimensions.

    Similarly, time is one entity but can also be conceptualized as future, present, and past time. Each involves the whole of time; the present being the “seen,” or manifested; the past is time experienced but no longer seen. The unseen future becomes manifest in the present; the past proceeds from the future through the present into the realm of past experience. Again, the same interrelationships apply as for the Persons of the Godhead.

    The central entity in the tri-universe is matter, which is essentially unseen energy manifesting itself in motion and experienced in various phenomena. These phenomena all occur in space through time. Unseen but omnipresent energy generates motion, the magnitude of which (velocity) is the ratio of the space to the time. Depending on the rates and types of motion, various phenomena (e.g., light, sound, texture, hardness) are experienced. For example, light energy generates light waves that are experienced in seeing light. It is always thus: unseen energy generating motion that is experienced in phenomena – this is matter, and each of its three components again comprises the whole [one couldn’t exist without the other].

    Thus the physical universe is actually a trinity of trinities, a true tri-universe in the fullest sense. But the same remarkable phenomena can be seen in the realm of human life as well. The Bible says that men and woman were created in God’s image.

    Note that each individual is a person with a body that can be physically heard, seen and touched. But inside that body is the person’s nature, which is unseen and yet is the source of all that he embodies. On the other hand, the person is known to others only through his personality, which is unseen and intangible, yet is the means by which he and his nature exert influence on others. Human life consists of three entities – nature, person, and personality – each of which pervades the whole of his life and yet is distinct from the other two. The nature is the unseen source, revealed and embodied in the person. The personality proceeds from the person, invisible yet influencing the lives of others in regard to the person. Nature, person, and personality (or, perhaps equivalently, soul, body and spirit) thus constitute a true trinity, reflecting in minute detail the Triuneness of the God who created the human trinity.”
  • (Science and the Bible, by Henry M. Morris).
If you are in a room right now, you are in a three dimensional box (for lack of a better word). There is height, depth, and width. These are three separate dimensions, but all three make the entirety of the room possible. If you were to take one of these dimensions away, the room would cease to exist. Alternatively, the Trinity makes up the whole of God, if one were to be taken away (which is impossible), God would cease to exist. These aren’t perfect examples, nor proofs of the Trinity, but merely examples to help the layman – like me – conceptualize a doctrine that seems beyond us.

Misinterpretations of the Trinity

1) Tri-theism: In early church history men such as John Ascungas and John Philoponus taught that there were three who were God but they were only related in a loose association as, for example, Peter, James, and John were as disciples. The error of this teaching was its proponents abandoned the unity within the Trinity with the result that they taught there were three gods rather than three Persons within one Godhead.

2) Sabellianism or Modalism: This teaching, originated by Sabellius (c. A.D. 200), erred in the opposite from that of tri-theism. Although Sabellius spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, he understood all three as simply three modes of existence or three manifestations of one God. The teaching is thus also known as modalism because it views one God who variously manifests Himself in three modes of existence: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Often you will hear people say, “Jesus prayed to the Father, wouldn’t He be praying to himself?” If Sabellianism were true, this would be a valid point. But there are three separate “persons” that are the one God.

3) Arianism: Arian doctrine had its roots in Tertullian, who subordinated the Son to the Father. Origen carried Tertullian’s concept further by teaching that the Son was subordinate to the Father “in respect to essence.” this ultimately led to Arianism, which denied the deity of Christ. Arius taught that only God was the uncreated One; because Christ was begotten of the Father it meant Christ was created by the Father. According to Arius there was a time when Christ did not exist. (#’s 1-3 are from: The Moody Handbook of Theology, by Paul Enns).

The Word “Person,” Straining Our Language
The word persons tend to detract from the unity of the Trinity, and it is readily recognized that persons is an inadequate term to describe the relationship within the Trinity (there is a German word that comes closest and means three-oneness). Some theologians have opted for the term subsistence, hence, “God has three subsistances.” other words used to describe the distinctiveness of the Three are: distinction, relation, and mode. The term persons is nonetheless helpful inasmuch as it emphasizes not only a manifestation but also an individual personality. In suggesting God is three with respect to His Persons it is emphasizes that (1) each has the same essence as God and (2) each possess the fullness of God. “In God there are no three individuals alongside of, and separate from, one another, but only personal self-distinctions within the Divine essence.” (Sytematic Theology, by Berkoff).

This is an important deviation from modalism, which teaches that one God merely manifests Himself in three various ways. This unity within three Persons is seen in Old Testament passages such as Isaiah 48:16 where the Father has sent the Messiah and the Spirit to speak to the restored nation. In Isaiah 61:1 the Father has anointed the Messiah with the Spirit for His mission. These references emphasize both the equality and the unity of the three Persons.

“Person”
Augustine, for example, discussing the propriety of the term “person” in the case of the Trinity, remarked: “When the question is asked: three what? Human language labours altogether under great poverty of speech. The answer however is given ‘three persons,’ not that it might be spoken but that it might not be left unspoken.” How then may we refer to the “three” in the Godhead without endangering God’s unity? The classical formula, “three persons,” has come under increasing strain, since contemporary usage rarely distinguishes “person” from “personality” with the latter’s overtones of distinctiveness and independence. Hence “three Persons” today comes close to denoting three separate gods.

To Conclude ~
As I clearly explained to Mughi3 [a Jehovah’s Witness] a few posts [a must read to understand this post fully] back about Jesus dual nature (100% man / 100% God), I will once again illustrate the verse that decimated the Jewish leaders and caused them to refrain from asking further questions….

David’s Son and David’s Lord
In Matthew 22:43, citing Psalm 110, Jesus said, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’ [Messiah]?” Jesus stumped his skeptical Jewish questioners by presenting then with a dilemma that blew their own neat calculations about the Messiah “Lord” (as he did in Ps. 110); when the Scriptures also say the Messiah would be the “Son of David” (which they do in 2 Samuel 7:12.)? The only answer is that the Messiah must be both a man (David’s son or offspring) and God (David’s Lord). Jesus is claiming to be both the God of the Old Testament and human, at the same time!



SeanG!
    "Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1


Edited by - SeanG on 12/27/2002 12:09:24 PM
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