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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 3/3/2003 3:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | John thanks for being so open about your past struggle. I got a call today from a girlfriend of mine. She was in tears. She has agrred to let me share her story and ask you all for your thoughts. She has been married almost 18 years. She and her husband attend a Catholic church. She is a new Christian. I don't know if her husband is saved. She is a big woman with an infectious laugh. It broke my heart to hear her cry. She can be a little raucous at times, but she has a heart of gold, and works as a nurse for the elderly.
Today she found some pornography that her husband had hidden. Personally, I think it is a sin, and that he should be confronted in love. I prayed with her for the future of her marriage and asked the lord to prepare her heart to deal with it. But beyond that I am pretty much at a loss. I guess I don't know much about it.
What do you all think? Is is a sin? If so, should she just pray for him, or should she also confront him? If she confronts him in love, what is she supposed to say to him? Is she supposed to keep him accountable? What does that look like?
thanks
Springs
Thy love did read by rote and could not spell. - Friar Laurence. - Shakespeare
Edited by - Springs on 03/03/2003 9:40:36 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 3/3/2003 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
What do you all think? Is it a sin? If so, should she just pray for him, or should she also confront him? If she confronts him in love, what is she supposed to say to him? Is she supposed to keep him accountable? What does that look like?
I don't have the wisdom to confidently answer all of your questions, Springs, but as to pornography being a sin, that's pretty clear. It's sin because pornography is designed to stimulate lust. And as Jesus said, anyone who looks at a woman with lust has committed adultery in his heart. This sin is especially grievious in this case because this guy is married. He has covenanted to become "one flesh" with his wife for life. By looking at pornography he is mentally consorting with women other than his wife. That is a violation of the marriage covenant.
All men, especially Christian men, should practice Job 31:1 "I have made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a woman."
As for the other questions, my counsel is that she should definitely confront him, but not attack him. Rather, she should calmly tell her husband how this habit of his makes her feel and be prepared to show him from Scripture just why it is wrong. If he listens and responds positively, great. If not, I would suggest that she arrange a meeting between her husband and her pastor. If after repeated attempts to graciously confront the issue he remains unrepentant, then she either has to tolerate his behavior or divorce him. If he is stubbornly unrepentant, then I think divorce is a biblical option here (though only as a last resort). He is committing mental adultery on a regular basis with countless women, and if he refuses to repent, then he shows his utter contempt for the marriage covenant. A divorce under those conditions wouldn't end the covenant but rather would recognize that he by his persistent behavior has already removed himself from that covenant.
Hope that helps,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/3/2003 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | I would suggest that she only use "I feel ..." statements in giving her husband feedback about this issue. "You are ..." statements are almost invariably attacking. "You are ..." statements that are backed up by scripture to show the person how they are sinning are typically the most attacking of them all.
There is nothing more powerful than an honest and open "I feel ..." statement to let someone know how they are impacting you.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 3/3/2003 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Boy do men need to talk about this. Here are two books. I’ve read the first. Excellent. The second one I haven’t read but I’ve talked to women who have read it and who liked it.
False Intimacy: Understanding the Struggle of Sexual Addiction by Harry W. Schaumburg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1576830284/qid=1046754380/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0146215-0929479?v=glance&s=books
An Affair of the Mind by Laurie Sharlene Hall
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561794643/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-0146215-0929479?v=glance&s=books
Tom
Love never ends | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/4/2003 1:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast,
Like your response to Springs, my relationship with my wife turned around for the better; when I stopped saying, "You are (statements) and started responding, "I feel (insert emotion), when you (insert fact)" and leaving it alone, ‘cept for prayer, and not saying anymore, unless she asked me to.
Being tempted to lust myself, or just being a man  , I know the difficulties involved in overcoming porn, but here are good tidings.
1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity... | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/4/2003 3:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
I lift a prayer up today for your friend, that can be so incredibly painful, I'm very sorry to hear of it.
I believe pornography is a serious sin because it does a number of very destructive things to people. The title of the book Tom lists hints at that: it creates a false intimacy between the viewer and the person being viewed because it is used as a substitute for true intimacy. The porn industry certainly exploits women and often very young, poor, and vulnerable women at that. No person's body should be exploited and used as an object of lust. It definitely creates a great deal of mistrust in a couple's life because the viewer is getting some of their sexual/intimacy needs met through the "strangers" they view. It can be as damaging as someone having an affair in terms of destroying a marriage and it is one of the major contributors to divorce. The images viewed can come back at any time to a person's mind and that is particularly damaging to a couple. The other reason it is damaging is because it is so often addicting and all addictions create a very psychologically uhealthy cycle of obsession in a person that requires a great deal of hard work and grace to overcome.
I have to say that I struggle a lot with having an extremely negative knee jerk emotional reaction to this issue. Everyone has an issue that they find particularly difficult to be gracious about. I become very angry about the women and young girls whose lives are destroyed and exploited by porn and have to REALLY ask God for grace in dealing with those who struggle with porn. The addiction and need to do it is not something I understand. I hope that your friend will seek God's gracious and loving heart before she approaches her husband because grace and mercy is so necessary for those who struggle addictively with this.
I also echo what Icon said about "I feel" statments and was going to say that when she confronts him she should keep the conversation on how it affects her and not get into any commentary on why it is sin or wrong, etc. Not now. She needs to let the Holy Spirit convict him of the sin in his life. That's my advice!
Peace and blessings,
~E
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JCsites.com
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 169
| Posted 3/4/2003 4:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's my two cents on the topic...
Porn is huge huge problem. The internet made it cheap to get, easy to get and private. It's affects on lives and society have been and will be devastating.
Here is the best help I've seen for this issue (from a technology standpoint).www.covenanteyes.com
It costs $7 a month. It does NOT block porn. Why? because pornographers no longer use obvious sex words in their URL's or e-mail messages. Thus the frequency of surfers genuinely stumbling onto a porn site is rapidly increasing and the porn filters are woefully behind on cataloging these sites.
It's a game of cat and mouse between porn sites and porn filters. The filters are losing.
What Covenant Eyes does is a different approach all together. When you sign up for the service and install their tiny, non intrusive, non-computer messing program, you assign an online accountability partner.
This is someone you know that has agreed to be notified via e-mail regarding the sites you have viewed. So there's no way to hide from this person, where you've been.
What you'll need to explain from time to time is Why you went to a site. From time to time accidents do happen.
I think this is a much healthier approach, and wonder if combo or covenant eyes plus a porn filter would really cover things well.
I just want people to be informed about the technology side of this issue as well.
JC Sites Guy
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shell
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 3/4/2003 10:39 AM (GMT -6) | | I have some of the same questions you do Springs.
I know two women who have gone through discovering their husband was deeply involved in pornograhy. One marriage made it through and the other didn't.
Both of these women became so distraught over the issue that it came down to; you need to choose between me and the pornography, choose to be accountable to someone in your life, and if I ever discover you are into it again I am leaving. One woman gave this ultimatum after the second round of discovering the depth of his addiction. The second woman found multiple sources of hard core pornography showing that he was deeply involved in it. One husband chose to become accountable and covenanted with his wife to stop, the other chose the pornography over his wife and daughters, and they divorced.
I agree that this is a form of mental adultery. Should a wife accept her husbands habit of pornography anymore than an adulterous affair? I'm interested what people think of their responses.
Thanks,
Shell
Edited by - shell on 03/04/2003 5:54:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/4/2003 3:55 PM (GMT -6) | | I enthusiastically endorse the ministry of Dr. Neil Anderson, http://www.freedominchrist.org/whoami.htm for help overcoming any and all addictive or habitual behaviors. From Dr. Anderson's site: "Understanding your identity in Christ is absolutely essential to your success at living the victorious Christian life."
Dr. Anderson was a traditional Christian counselor/psychologist who over the years has developed his own "Steps to Freedom," which essentially involve the deliveree being led by the facilitator/counselor through a step-by-step process of renouncing and confessing all known sins and at the same time claiming all the promises of God towards them for deliverance from all evil. (I would be very interested to know how similar this might be to the "TNT training" advocated by Doc). I've personally seen many wonderfully helped through the approach of Dr. Anderson.
In any case, the (persistent and steadfast) will towards God of the one seeking deliverance is absolutely essential to both their initial and continuing freedom.
As to men who are involved in pornography, it would require that they truly wanted to be free of it first of all, and then that they continue to renew their mind by the application of the word of God. As apart from physical castration, a man's sex drive will generally stay with him for most of his natural life, there is no "quick fix" to this issue by prayer--a lifetime of devotion to God and one's wife is essential to any hope of sexual purity for men. (Women probably will never understand this, I know, but all hormonally normal men will concede it's true). This is why I think Paul wrote: If they cannot contain themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. (John 8:31)
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 03/04/2003 9:04:00 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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CalvinnHobbes
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 3/4/2003 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | www.xxxchurch.com ----> THE NUMBER ONE CHRISTIAN PORN SITE!!!
This is a legitimate website dedicated to ministering to those who are caught up in the world of pornography. The site discusses various stats on the porn industry as well as its devastating effects on people's lives, among other things. The ministry is pretty new to the scene, so many people still aren't aware of it. I met the founders this last summer in Palm Springs, CA. Craig and Jake are a couple of (roughly) 28 year-old guys, married, quite involved with youth ministry (they're behind Fireproof Ministries), who I know do some speaking at various Christian music festivals throughout the summer.
Their website, last I checked, offered a FREE online accountability software program similar to the one JCSites mentioned. (You go to a questionable site, and it automatically notifies some predetermined accountability e-mail address of your choice.) All you have to do is download it.
These guys are taking the undeniable prevalence and dominion of pornography in so many lives head on. Craig and Jake have rented billboards along major coastline highways in CA and plastered them with XXXCHURCH.COM--THE NUMBER ONE CHRISTIAN PORN SITE. They have even, with their wives at their sides, rented booths in the last couple of years at some of these major national porn conventions such as the Adult Expo in Vegas and offered the patrons there information about what their ministry does and why. The first time, they were allocated some inconvenient location at the Expo; they were actually asked by the convention to return the following year though. That second year, they were given a booth in a very high traffic area of the convention. These guys are serious about this stuff.
I haven't been to their site for quite awhile, but I'm sure they have all kinds of good news on there about what God has been doing through their efforts. Check it out and pass it on.
"The longer I live, the more I read, the more patiently I think, and the more anxiously I inquire, the less I seem to know." ~President John Adams | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 3/5/2003 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's a loaded one...
How do you define pornography?
Do we throw out NYPD Blue ?
Was Brook Shields over the edge in Pretty Baby?
peace and love, don
---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 3/5/2003 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | *fyi: this post may be deleted by the author if it causes a ruckus*
Here's another admittedly loaded question to go with Don's. It sounds like a ploy, but my motive is honest inquiry and challenge. I did wait 24 hours before posting it, for what it's worth.
It seems to me, the major difference between pornography and homosexuality as they are treated on this board is primarily that porn is not PC. Feminism has convinced some who are otherwise hesitant to condemn sins that porn is violence against women, thus clearly wrong. I've even seen some of the arguments, stated as facts, that porn exploits women which is a view that not even all feminists hold.
Do you all have any doubts, that as porn becomes more and more mainstream (and it IS; I see frequent references to masturbation and porn on prime time TV, for instance), we will begin to see apologists apply the same logic to it that have been applied to homosexuality.
To wit:
**Paul doesn't talk about lusting after pictures, but after actual women, therefore porn is actually allowed if not encouraged in the Bible as a way to avoid temptation from "real" women with whom one might actually engage in sex. There is, for instance, no way to 'share a bed' with someone in a porn relationship, and as I read the Greek, that was Paul's argument against adultery.
**There are biological differences in the brains of those who enjoy or become "addicted" (which we will no longer say because it is genetic) to porn. These studies have already begun, by the way; search the web and you'll find, among other things, studies linking porn "addiction" to ADD. Even Dobson more than a decade ago argued that men's brains are wired to be predisposed to visual stimulation but no one allows that as an excuse.
**We can bring up examples of Trule Decent people we know who regularly masturbate to porn and have fine marriages. It is only wives (and husbands) who 'freak out' when their spouses come "out of the closet" about their porn that it causes problems in the marriage. That is, the problem isn't the porn; the problem is that the wives need to learn to embrace and appreciate their husbands' use of porn. Healthy couples even use it as a form of foreplay.
**We could also talk about single men who are quite satisfied and mentally healthy by all definitions in their sexual lives with the exclusive (monogamous) use of porn.
This may best be handled in another thread, or it may stop with this post, but to me the Bible is every bit as clear on the issue of porn as it is on the issue of homosexuality or abortion. Principles can be extrapolated to modern situations even though those exact principles (monogamous gay unions, Internet porn, medical abortion) may not be directly referenced in scripture.
The fact that "we" all agree on one and not the other, to me, says more about political and social influences than on any inherent differences in the relevance or clarity of the Bible.
One more thought: why don't we have the same hand-wringing and ministry-making fervor over women's addictions to romance novels? The secular ones are every bit as bad as your standard Penthouse letters. And, you can find hundreds of the Christian spin on romance novels on the shelves of Christian bookstores. Do those idealized men of the Victorian era or the Olde West make women dissatisfied with their husbands in the exact same way that porn affects men (and women!)? My answer would be yes.
But where are the 'romance novel addiction' groups in churches. Again, I name that sin political correctness.
Terry
"Be God's"
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/5/2003 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry,
Your post is merely positing the same "slippery slope" argument that is continually used as an argument against homosexual unions. We could insert any "sin" and say that "obviously if we condone homosexual unions, soon we'll condone this sin too." It gets said all the time. Your post isn't about pornography, it is an argument against homosexuality and the supposed "political" motives of others. I for one would appreciate it if you either posted it to one of the homosexuality threads or started another thread with this topic. I don't want to fill up Spring's important question about pornography with this argument.
However, I think your question about women and romance novels is a good one and relevant to this thread.
Thanks,
~E
Edited by - Empiress on 03/05/2003 2:54:16 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/5/2003 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Don asked: quote:
How do you define pornography?
Do we throw out NYPD Blue ?
Was Brook Shields over the edge in Pretty Baby?
"I know it when I see it" is often the answer to your question about pornography. But there is no cut and dry answer or easy answer. Since we're talking with Christians about what is appropriate behavior for Christians (and not the wider culture), I think we have to leave it up to people's own conscience. For some, NYPD or an R rated movie is too much while others won't be affected by such programs. It's something every person has to search their own hearts about and determine, "is this sin for me?".
Terry asked: quote:
One more thought: why don't we have the same hand-wringing and ministry-making fervor over women's addictions to romance novels? The secular ones are every bit as bad as your standard Penthouse letters. And, you can find hundreds of the Christian spin on romance novels on the shelves of Christian bookstores. Do those idealized men of the Victorian era or the Olde West make women dissatisfied with their husbands in the exact same way that porn affects men (and women!)? My answer would be yes.
I think the morality or immorality of reading a romance novel depends on the novel and the person reading it. I know some women who read light or Christian romance novels because they simply enjoy reading about the love that exists between two people. Women tend to be much more focused on relationships than sex (a generalization). But I know other women who are actually addicted to serious romance novels who have become isolated from their husbands and family and will read hundreds of these books a month. For them the novels have become a substitute for real intimacy in a similar way that pornography does for men. I believe at this point it has become a sin because it is harmful and destructive.
~E
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JCsites.com
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 169
| Posted 3/5/2003 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | CalvinHobbes: Great Post!
Here's the link to the free software you spoke of:
www.xxxchurch.com/x3watch/download.htm
I will definately be recommending this to those I know.
Again, something like this, coupled with filtering software would be a great combination solution.
JC Sites Guy
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/5/2003 6:33 PM (GMT -6) | | As to whether or not lusting after women with lust in one's heart (whether pornographic images or "in the flesh") is sinful, it would appear to me that Jesus was quite unambiguous:
Matt 5:27 ¶ "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (NASB)
In the above paragraph, Jesus is spelling out precisely what the moral demands of his New Law are, that they exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, and involve the core of one's being (also known as ultimate intention) as opposed to external keeping of the law.
When I was addicted to pornography, great condemnation would come upon my mind after every instance I looked at it. I was sure that I was headed to hell. Now I thank God for His mighty deliverance, and also realize that steady vigilance is essential to my continuing freedom from this. The longer I have been free from it, the temptation it holds over my mind.
I should add that it is totally natural and part of our God-given sexual make-up for a man to appreciate the beauty of a woman (None of us would be here today were it not for the natural sexual attraction of a man for a woman). Sin comes in when a man begins dwelling on the tempting thoughts which generally always come the longer one stares.
I should add here that I am not interested in gaining any glory by saying by God's powerful grace and my choice to obey I have overcome this habitual sin. I only want to give glory to God for his mighty works, and to encourage other men.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 03/06/2003 8:52:14 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 3/5/2003 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Your post is merely positing the same "slippery slope" argument that is continually used as an argument against homosexual unions. We could insert any "sin" and say that "obviously if we condone homosexual unions, soon we'll condone this sin too." It gets said all the time. Your post isn't about pornography, it is an argument against homosexuality and the supposed "political" motives of others. I for one would appreciate it if you either posted it to one of the homosexuality threads or started another thread with this topic. I don't want to fill up Spring's important question about pornography with this argument.
I'm trying to stay out of this but this is so UNFAIR to Terry. Back on the "Questions" thread people kept injecting different sins (i.e. divorce) in the mix when discussing homosexuality yet now when Terry injects homosexuality unto this thread all of a sudden this becomes an issue? I honestly don't understand the difference??????
trosie
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/5/2003 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiress
Your post isn't about pornography, it is an argument against homosexuality and the supposed "political" motives of others.
trosie
I'm trying to stay out of this but this is so UNFAIR to Terry. Back on the "Questions" thread people kept injecting different sins (i.e. divorce) in the mix when discussing homosexuality yet now when Terry injects homosexuality unto this thread all of a sudden this becomes an issue? I honestly don't understand the difference??????
Iconoclast
Terry is making an argument about homosexuality on a pornography thread - he is off the subject of the thread.
The other sins people were injecting on the questions thread were related to arguments about homosexuality - which was the subject of that thread.
Not that I am very conscientious myself about staying on-topic but I don't see a discrepancy here.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 3/5/2003 7:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks to everyone for giving me your thoughts on this!
Alan, thank you for the bible verse. I agree that it is a violation of the marriage covenant. Your suggestion of talking to him about it without attacking him, and Iconoclast’s advice to use “I feel” statements are a pretty tall order. I hope she has practiced these skills before. Why is grace the hardest when it’s essential? Great advice all the way through, guys, thanks. Tom, thanks for hunting down those titles. I am getting another title from my sister.Tim, thanks for the verse. Shell, thanks for your thoughts. I do think it is adultery.
Empiress, thanks for the prayer. You are so right on, about the intimacy and the destroyed lives. I really relate to your heart for the young girls. This area is kind of a knee jerk issue for me too. My heart goes out to the men. I feel hopeless for them sometimes. In our society they are bombarded by sex constantly. Women are objectified so often, it becomes commonplace. Pornographic temptations are everywhere, even at their fingertips as they work. The pervasiveness of porn combined with the male sex drive can be overwhelming. It is a tremendous struggle for them to resist. As I have read over this thread and prayed about it I have come to believe that the only deliverance is through Christ. I hope in him for the men.
JC Sites guy, thanks for the Techno tips. What a great tool for accountability. That would definitely be a job for a buddy of the husband. CalvinnHobbes, great information! That site sounds perfect. Thanks.
John, I’ve used Neil Anderson’s Steps for Freedom in the lay counseling ministry at WHC for other issues. It is definitely a good program. It is similar to TNT in that it stresses having your identity in Christ. They both incorporate prayer and taking thoughts captive to Christ although the methods differ a bit.
Might-be-Don, I’m with Empiress that it’s hard to draw a fine line on the definition. But I feel I’ve seen soft porn on regular television.
Terry, porn is not PC? Some women don’t think it exploits women? I have never heard of that. I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just remarking. I can’t even imagine a porn apologist. I think you are right about the romance novels though. Not good. Maybe there are not ministries for that because only a small percentage of women do that. Or maybe it’s cause people that don’t read them, have no idea how graphic they are. I really don’t know.
Again, thank you everyone for the great advice and resources. I am encouraged and better equipped.
Springs
Thy love did read by rote and could not spell. - Friar Laurence. - Shakespeare | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 3/5/2003 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | John, I just read your most recent post. I praise God and thank him for his spirit in you. I am also thankful that you can be a witness for resisting temptation in Christ. Thanks for the verse too. When the subject came up the only verse I could remember was the one about the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.
It is so hard nowadays for young boys because they have barely learned how to be ethical beings before their character is put to the test. Or should I say to the nuclear bombardment.
You give me hope for men.
Springs
Thy love did read by rote and could not spell. - Friar Laurence. - Shakespeare | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 3/6/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I should add that it is totally natural and part of our God-given sexual make-up for a man to appreciate the beauty of a woman (None of us would be here today were it not for the natural sexual attraction of a man for a woman). Sin comes in when a man begins dwelling on the tempting thoughts which generally always come the longer one stares.
John,
Thank you for sharing your struggle and your testimony to God's grace and deliverance. I am sure this was a very difficult road...taking every thought captive in our society is so difficult when there is a constant sexual bombardment going on. I appreciated your above statement..it's wrong when Satan gets a hold of the thought and twists it into something demeaning to both the woman and the man.
Your input has helped me have compassion for men that struggle in this area. Seeing my two friends go through what they did, and hearing them share how damaging it was to their feelings of self-worth and the destruction of intimacy with their husbands was so hard to see and hear...but hearing your perspective on the guilt you felt, feeling that you were going to hell, and the struggle to overcome, just shows how Satan desires to destroy both women and men through pornography.
Shell
Edited by - shell on 03/06/2003 10:14:12 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/6/2003 2:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Trosie,
Just a note although Icon explained the reasoning behind my request very well. I personally would LIKE to interact with Terry on his post, but I didn't feel I could in a thread about pornography when his post was going to start a debate about homosexuality all over again and totally overun this thread. I didn't feel THAT was FAIR to Springs.
I hope that Terry will re-post it in a place where people feel free to dig into the homosexual arguments again, and there are plenty of active threads to do this. I don't believe we should de-rail Spring's thread for such a hot topic as homosexuality when there are plenty of other places it is being discussed.
My goal was to be fair to Springs and this topic.
Thanks,
~E
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Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 3/6/2003 6:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Terry, porn is not PC? Some women don’t think it exploits women? I have never heard of that. I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just remarking. I can’t even imagine a porn apologist. I think you are right about the romance novels though. Not good. Maybe there are not ministries for that because only a small percentage of women do that. Or maybe it’s cause people that don’t read them, have no idea how graphic they are. I really don’t know.
Hi Springs,
My heart goes out to your friend and I pray they fight for their marriage. I pray she feels to comfort of Jesus, since you mentioned she is a a big woman. From what I've read and heard, women discovering their husband's porn often question themselves: "if I had been more sexy, more ready for sex, thinner" etc. I pray for you and her other friends to have wisdom if she wrestles with those issues.
To address your comments, porn is becoming more mainstream and so I do think we will see an increase in 'christian' chruches defending it. The American church espeically, is rarely resistant to American culture any more. I hope your friend is in a biblically strong (evangelical?) church since she is a new christian.
Here's one of many sites that will give you an outline of a feminist account that is Pro-pornography. The response is fairly weak IMHO, but it will give you the flavor of the argument and some links to pursue. I doubt you'll find the arugment compelling, but it is not "fringe" or unheard of.
http://members.aol.com/Craig4Congress/issues/porn_debate.htm
And, in about five minutes of google searching, I found sites like this one
http://www.zeta.org.au/~andrewa/aja543.htm
that attempt to blend Christianity with a pro-masturbation and pro-porn agenda. Granted, that site is fairly pathetic and the attempt to reinterpret /pornaias/ is facile, but the movement is still fairly young. In three years I will probably have book-length treatments to cite.
TO BE CLEAR: I am NOT recommending these sites, for you or especially for your friend. I hope their response to the sin of lust and adultery is guided my the Bible's advice about marriages rather than any political or social argument.
Finally, my point about the romance novels was more about the topic of porn generally, not by way of any advice. My suspicion is, that although the sin is similar, God does recognize male and female difference on the issue. I do wonder, though, what advice you would give a man who just found out his wife had hidden a stack of Harlequin novels? Most of us probably wouldn't say anything, nor would the husband likely be devastated. That probably says more about our culture than the sins themselves. In times past, it was women's infidelity that was the 'bigger sin.'
Sorry to rant on so much about homosexuality yet again. 
*hugs* Trosie!
Terry
"Be God's"
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/7/2003 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry said: quote:
Sorry to rant on so much about homosexuality yet again.
No worries. I'd like it if you did post your argument somewhere on this forum so that we can discuss it though. I felt by posting your comments here and drawing a link between those who argue for homosexuality and their supposed "political" motivations that it was a way of making an accusation against us and our views without giving us the opportunity to defend ourselves (because to do so would mean de-railing Spring's thread). That felt very frustrating and unfair to me.
Terry posted this link:
http://members.aol.com/Craig4Congress/issues/porn_debate.htm
The arguments made here is from an entirely secular perspective on seuxality and not at all from a Christian or even spiritual perspective. This is not a theological reflection on pornography. People in the wider culture can and do defend anything, but I don't see any correlation between this woman's argument and a theological argument a Christian might make as you imply.
Terry said: quote:
http://www.zeta.org.au/~andrewa/aja543.htm
that attempt to blend Christianity with a pro-masturbation and pro-porn agenda. Granted, that site is fairly pathetic and the attempt to reinterpret /pornaias/ is facile, but the movement is still fairly young. In three years I will probably have book-length treatments to cite.
I read this article and I didn't hear the author defending pornography at all, everything he wrote was about masturbation. Does anyone else see a connection?
Terry said:quote:
Finally, my point about the romance novels was more about the topic of porn generally, not by way of any advice. My suspicion is, that although the sin is similar, God does recognize male and female difference on the issue.
I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this idea, it is an intriguing one. What kind of differences do you think God recognizes between males and females?
Terry said:quote:
I do wonder, though, what advice you would give a man who just found out his wife had hidden a stack of Harlequin novels? Most of us probably wouldn't say anything, nor would the husband likely be devastated. That probably says more about our culture than the sins themselves. In times past, it was women's infidelity that was the 'bigger sin.'
Do you think that a woman reading Harlequins is automatically just as serious or problematic as a man viewing pornography? Would you say that for any woman to read a Harlequin novel is it akin to "infedility" to her husband?
Thanks,
~E
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 3/7/2003 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Simple question (s), meaning short, that make you say...Hmmmm. Responses might be another thing.  Though this is a thread about pornography, I fear it could "degenerate" into thinking that ANY exposure to nudity would be a sin. Sooo...
Does pornography by necessity include nudity? Can we not have pornographic violence, pornographic advertising, pornographic sentiment?
Would a missionary avoid 'half dressed' natives or their native stories? Would you? If we are "ambassadors for Christ" in our culture and movies, print, music, etc are the "stories" of our culture, how should we respond?
Is the contemporary church's obsession with nudity, misguided, misleading, and even harmful? Misguided because we all know that we can be provoked to lust by a lot less than nudity? Misleading because the emphasis on nudity (and swearing) distracts us from equally egregious temptations? Harmful because our focus on the negative aspects of nudity and sex often skew our perspective and lead us to denigrate something that God sees as beautiful and sacred? I don't believe that seeing a naked woman or man is necessarily wrong. However, if looking at nudity provokes me to lust, then I have to examine my own heart (the problem may be the person) and allow the Holy Spirit to redeem that part of my life and/or flee from that temptation. Hence, refer to my questions on the Noonan thread.
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1862
Is there a difference between a man lusting after Halle Berry (HOT), Mona Lisa (REALLY HOT, Damn!!), or The Little Mermaid's Ariel? <----now she's REALLY, REALLY, HOT!!! Who's yer Daddy?? Luv them shells by the way.
Is the problem generally nakedness itself, or is it but the commercial glorification of false ideals?
What can be said of a film that is billed as a spicy erotic thriller, but when it's all said and done, adult viewers leave the theatre chewing on the importance of marriage fidelity and commitment?
Is it not how [nudity] is used—if it is in context with the story and not if it's used for the sheer purpose of titillation what is important?
Do not each of us respond differently to stimuli, with different levels of spiritual maturity? Therefore others cannot determine for another individual what is or is not appropriate for viewing?
Can a film shy away from the nudity, in which that film that is all about relationships, and in a film where a few of those relationships happen to be sexual, work against the film and not for it? And what if that was a film that had profound significance from a Christian point of view?
What if movie censors removed nudity from some of the cinematic stories that have powerfully affected our thinking about good and evil, ethics, and relationships, both personally and nationally, would those films never have "worked?"
Can sexual matters also be metaphors for the film's spiritual, social, and political context?
If the Bible was made into a movie, would Christians boycott it?
So. What is right? And what is wrong? Or do you give a @%#*& about it? 
Brandon
"And don't say it's love that broke your heart when you trusted someone. Cause love's the victim, not the crime."--Jody McBrayer, Love Can Break Your Fall www.jodymcbrayer.com
Edited by - BBBCanada on 03/07/2003 2:39:33 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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