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In chapter 11 Paul says that when a woman prays or prophesies in church, she should have a veil on her head. But in order to pray or prophesy in church, a woman would have to be speaking. Apparently Paul was okay with women praying and prophesying in church as long as they are veiled. So what does this mean 3 chapters later when Paul says that it’s a disgrace for women to speak in church?

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Originally posted by Paul5388

Tigress,

A woman can be a preacher to the younger women, but do you think He is going to contradict what He has written as qualifications for the office of elder/bishop or deacon?

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Originally posted by Paul5388

Tigress,

I certainly don't put God in a box.

Let me tell you about my "baby" girl, who will be 30 in a couple of months. She has always been at home, under my care. She has never dated, not even once. She was home schooled since the 4th grade. We have home churched for the past 10 years and there have never been any men her age in attendance. The world, and most of the church, would say there isn't any way she will ever get married, because all of the modern procedures for obtaining a mate are being neglected/ignored/rejected. That's what you call putting God in a very little box! She has set a wedding date of Dec 27 to marry a young man from Dallas (which is 160 miles from here).

The moral of the story is, God can accomplish what He wants, whether it conforms to the world's standards or not. In fact, you might say His response to our standards/thinking is, "Man's thinking be stinking!"

Not only is there a moral to the story, but there is encouragement to be content no matter what state we are in and to wait upon the Lord and His timing.

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Originally posted by Paul5388

Tigress,

It would be helpful if you had any idea of what you are talking about. One does not have to experience sin in order to know it is sin. If I tell my daughter to leave snakes alone, she really doesn't have to grab one in the nesting boxes, or recently in a sewing basket, to know I am right. If I tell her the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, not the length of the slit in her skirt, she then understands we are going to eat until we die, but given time we will get as homely as homemade soap. Looks fade, appetites don't! BTW, she can cook!

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Originally posted by Paul5388

Tigress,

Let's check track records. How many children have you raised to maturity? My oldest is my son, who lives across the highway from me. He and his family moved back from Tulsa to be right across the highway. He could have moved any place on this earth, but didn't. My oldest daughter got married and moved to Dallas with her husband. They now live ten miles from here as I write. They could have moved any place on this earth, but didn't. I have eight grandchildren that visit on a daily basis. I must be a really raunchy old cuss for them to want to come and visit. Now, tell me how many you have raised and how well they turned out.

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Tigress,
Just thought I would pop in.....I over read some interesting comments that you made about that “Paul guy over on the Women in the Ministry thread”. I happen to be that daughter that you commented about that is “being suffocated”. Hmmm...interesting thought for certain !!! I am HAPPILY living by MY choice with my wonderful family and have been for TWENTY-NINE years. A more loving and caring family you will never find. I have been given the “right” to make any choice I want to, but counsel has been given when asked. I am only 29, my Father and Mother are 30 years older than I and therefore have MUCH wisdom....through studying Scripture and living life. I would have made some REALLY stupid decisions in my life had it not been for them guiding me and directing me in the right way. My parents love me very much and WANT the BEST for me. Hence the reason for me ASKING their counsel.

I am NOT suffocated in the LEAST !!! I have been given their blessing to marry a VERY special young man that loves me with all his heart and HE also has lived the same blessed life I have had by staying under his parent’s authority and counsel all HIS life. My parents and I know that I have been given every chance in this world to be the best I can be and I feel they have done a terrific job !!!

That “Paul guy” is a great Dad and I am proud to call him mine !!! I wish their were more Dad’s like him out in the world !!!!

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Main Articles
Nancy Holloway,
The Lenten Journey (1997 Spring)

Kyriaki Karidoyannes FitzGerald,
Silence and the Glad Tidings (1997 Spring)

Demetra Jaquet,
Pentecost Sunday (1997 Spring)

Valerie Karras,
The Holy Myrrh-Bearers in the Church of Jerusalem (1997 Spring)
The Significance of the Maleness of Jesus Christ (1997 Spring)

Karen Rae Keck,
The Life of Mary Magdalene (1997 Spring)
The Holy Myrrh-Bearers (1997 Spring)

Bonnie A. Michal,
From Repentance to Love: The Sinful Woman (1997 Spring)

Teva Regule,
Washing of the Feet (1997 Spring)
Reflections on Holy Week... (1997 Spring)
"Gifts of the Spirit" Conference 2000

Eva Catafygiotu Topping,
After Easter Reflections 1986 (1997 Spring)

Bishop Kallistos (Ware),
The Theotokos, Icon of Human Freedom (1997 Summer)

St. Nina Quarterly staff,
An Interview with Bishop Kallistos (Ware) (1997 Summer)

Karen Rae Keck,
The Life of St. Macrina the Younger (1997 Summer)

Helen Creticos Theodoropoulos,
The Joy of All Who Sorrow (1997 Summer)

Susan Ashbrook Harvey,
Women in the Syrian Tradition (1997 Fall)

St. Nina Quarterly staff,
An Interview with Susan Ashbrook Harvey (1997 Fall)

A Spiritual Son,
The Life of Gerontissa Gabriela, (1997 Fall)

Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald,
On Holiness, Authority, and St. Brigit of Kildare (1997 Fall)

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Conferences, Retreats, & Seminars
Teva Regule
Gifts of the Spirit Conference for Orthodox
Christian Women, November 17-18, 2000,
St. John of Damascus Orthodox Church,
Dedham, Massachusetts

St. Nina Quarterly staff,
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew Hosts
International Conference for Orthodox Women (1997 Fall)

Cathleen Callen & Lisa Pook
A Journey in Faith: A Conference for Orthodox Christian Women (1997 Summer)

Evelyn Dumas
Living by Acts of Faith: Women’s Conference in Montreal (1997 Summer)

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Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew Hosts International Conference for Orthodox Women



His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew was the host of a conference for Orthodox women entitled "Discerning the ‘Signs of the Times’ (Mt. 16:3): Women in the Life of the Orthodox Church" held in Constantinople, May 10—17, 1997.

Sponsored by World Council of Churches, the conference brought together about fifty women who were the official delegates of the Orthodox Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, representing the concerns of Orthodox women from Eastern and Western Europe, Russia, North and South America.

The focus of the conference included a number of topics related to women in the Orthodox Church. Among those discussed were: "The Holy Spirit in the Life of the Church," "Discerning the Tradition Today," "Growing Up Orthodox and Female," "Women and Contemporary Pastoral Praxis," "Orthodox Women in Monastic Life," "Orthodox Theological Education and Women," "The Ministry of Wives of Priests," "Women as Young Adults," "Women and Aging," "Women and the Body," "The Diaconal Ministries and the Diaconate," and "The Ordination Issue."

Serving as the theological coordinator of the conference, Dr. Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald reminded the delegates that they were present with the blessing of their Church leaders. "Our conference," she said, "is taking place with the full encouragement and blessings of our Patriarchs, Archbishops, and Metropolitans. We are representatives of our churches. Our primates have already affirmed that our meeting is an important one for our churches and for Orthodox Christian witness in the societies in which we live."

Conference participants recommended that the churches take more positive actions in affirming and supporting the vocations of women. The delegates, for example, stressed the need for more women to have the opportunity to study Orthodox theology.

As there were a number of participants from war-torn areas of Eastern Europe, delegates spoke of women as "peacemakers" and called upon the churches to make "a greater commitment to support our sister Orthodox churches in crisis situations. Often in these situations, women and children suffer most."

A number of other concerns which relate to the ministry of women were also discussed. Many of the delegates expressed concern regarding certain liturgical practices regarding the presentation of infants, certain prayers associated with miscarriage, abortion, postpartum mothers, and the assumptions which in some places prohibit women from receiving communion for biological reasons. These concerns were discussed by the participants openly, yet with great sensitivity. The delegates re- cognized the need to examine more thoughtfully the present relationship between theology and praxis (practice).

There were also discussions regarding the rejuvenation of the female diaconate. The delegates were encouraged to reflect deeply upon this tradition. In his welcoming address of Patriarch Bartholomew reminded the participants that "Here, at the Great Church of Hagia Sophia, a number of devoted women such as St. Olympias, served as deaconesses . . . To both women and men, to both clergy and laity, these women saints continue to be a source of inspiration, for it is written, ‘God is revealed in His saints!’" His Holiness also noted the "call for the full restoration of the order of women deacons . . . The order of women deacons is an undeniable part of tradition coming from the early Church. Now, in many of our Churches, there is a growing desire to restore this order so that the spiritual needs of the people of God may be better served. There are already a number of women who appear to be called to this ministry."

"Perhaps one of the most remarkable results of these two international Orthodox conferences, [the other conference was "Discerning the Signs of the Times" held in Damascus, Syria, October, 1996]" stated FitzGerald, "is that, now, at least at a symbolic level, we have for the first time a global consensus regarding a number of the important concerns that affect Orthodox women. This indeed, may prove to be of immediate and future service to the Church."

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Gifts of the Spirit
A Conference for Orthodox Christian Women
Teva Regule, Managing Editor for The St. Nina Quarterly
Home

Nearly two hundred and fifty women gathered this past 17 an 18 November at St. John of Damascus Orthodox Church in Dedham, Mass. to participate in a conference for Orthodox Christian women entitled, "Gifts of the Spirit." Sponsored by the St. Nina Quarterly and the Council of Eastern Orthodox Churches of Central Massachusetts, and with the help of a dedicated local planning committee, this was the first time that Orthodox Christian women in the New England area gathered as one to explore the ministry of women in the Church. The event offered an opportunity to meet other Orthodox Christian women, exchange our experiences and ideas of ministry within the Church, grow in our understanding of ministry, and further explore the various ministries of women in the Church.

It was a tremendous success. Although originally envisioned as a regional event, the conference attracted women from all over the United States. They came from many different ethnic jurisdictions and parishes, and ranged in age from teenagers to women in their eighties (we had quite a few mother-daughter pairs). Some had graduate degrees in theology. Some were faithful women in their parishes who had never studied theology formally. We were a diverse group, but we gathered as one in Christ. We formed new friendships and renewed old ones. We shared experiences and feelings. We discussed and debated theology. We lived, shared, and exalted in the gifts and ministries of women in the Church. It was an exhilarating experience for many of the participants.

The conference began on Friday evening with registration, music rehearsal, and a light supper followed by Daily Vespers. Each participant received a workbook, with a cover icon of the Myrrhbearing Women by iconographer Diane Lee, containing descriptions of the numerous breakout sessions scheduled for Saturday, questions for consideration, and resource information. We also included copies of recommendations from a number of past international Orthodox conferences for women (1976–Agapia, Romania; 1988–Rhodes, Greece; 1996–Damascus, Syria; 1997–Istanbul, Turkey; and 1998–Nairobi, Kenya); a ministry worksheet; and the conference evaluation. In addition, each conferencee received a bookmark with the quotations from the scroll given to St. Nina, a conference pencil, and a print of one of nine different icons by a number of women iconographers. (These icons were later used to designate the respective discussion group to which each conferencee was assigned during the closing plenary.)

After Vespers, Susan Arida, a member of the conference planning committee, introduced the ministry worksheet that was included in each participant’s packet. She explained that the worksheet was offered as a starting point for our discussions for the weekend and as a resource for helping us work through the many ideas that were presented at the conference. The questions on the worksheet focused on the purpose of ministry and our understanding of the various gifts of the Spirit.

Susan Ashbrook Harvey, professor of religious studies at Brown University, immediate past president of the North American Patristics Society, and a representative of the Antiochian Archdiocese on the North American Eastern Orthodox-Roman Catholic Bilateral Theological Consultation was the opening keynote speaker. In her talk, "Gifts We Have Been Given: Women in Orthodox History," Dr. Ashbrook Harvey presented the stories of various women from the past (in situations not unlike our own today), who, in spite of societal circumstances, distinguished themselves as disciples of Christ. She drew on biblical and patristic sources, as well as ancient writings to show the many ways in which women have offered their gifts to God in the past.

After a lively question and answer session, everyone enjoyed the hospitality at the opening reception. With live piano music in the background, conferencees browsed through the conference bookstore as well as the many displays and videos featuring the various ministries of women in the Church including: Holy Trinity and Hellenic Nursing Home and Rehabilitation centers; St. Herman Food Pantry; International Orthodox Christian Charities; Project Mexico; Orthodox People Together; Orthodox Peace Fellowship; Theophany School; the St. Macrina study group; Circle of Healing care ministry; Philoptochos Society; Antiochian Women; Women’s Orthodox Ministries and Education Network; and the St. Nina Quarterly.

Saturday began with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. The service was conducted as a teaching liturgy with the altar table and table of preparation in front of the iconostasis. The main celebrant, Fr. Nicholas Apostola, explained the various parts of the liturgy and those in attendance were able to watch and gain a deeper understanding of the service. The participants were also given a service booklet prepared especially for the conference including the prayers, petitions, and musical responses so that everyone could actively join in worship. We were further inspired by the homily given by Susan Arida, M. Div., who reflected on the readings of the day and, in particular, what it means to follow Christ. It was uplifting to hear everyone offering their gifts to God–singing, praying, and exchanging the Kiss of Peace together. We are truly one in Christ.

Following a continental breakfast, participants attended the morning breakout session of their choice. The topics included: Educating our Children and Ourselves in the Faith: In Our Homes; Pastoral Ministry–A Lay Ministries Panel that included women representatives of the various pastoral care ministries in the area; Language and Imagery in Worship: Iconography and Sacred Space; Saints and Sisterhood: Women in the Church Past and Present; and Women and the Church Canons. Each session provided a chance for participants to explore a particular area of interest and to engage in a question and answer session. For those who wanted either to continue or participate in the various discussions, a number of tables at lunch were designated as theme tables.

The luncheon featured a delicious lenten middle eastern buffet. The International Orthodox Christian Charities generously donated prayer cards that were placed at each place setting featuring the before and after meal prayers so everyone could lift up their voices together. It was also at this time that the editorial board of the St. Nina Quarterly paid special tribute to Ms. Clara Nickolson, a member of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, by presenting the first St. Nina Award–an engraved wooden cross (According to the Life of St. Nina, she was presented with a vine-covered wooden cross from the Theotokos as a sign of special protection during her ministry.) –in recognition of all her years of work in support of the ministry of women in the Orthodox Church.

Dr. Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald gave the second keynote address, "Offering Our Gifts: Our Faith and Praxis." Dr. FitzGerald is an Orthodox theologian, educator, pastoral counselor, and licensed psychologist, as well as author of several books including Women Deacons in the Orthodox Church: Called to Holiness and Ministry. She began her talk by outlining some of the mistaken notions about Church service, explaining our life of discipleship that begins with our baptism and chrismation, the necessity of placing God first, love of our neighbor, and our place in the Christian community. She then focused on the ministries of women, pointing out the many ways that women had served the Lord in the past as apostles, prophets, deacons, nuns, ascetics, etc. and highlighting some of the ways that women may be called to serve in the present.

In addition, she presented a number of concerns from the past international conferences for Orthodox women to illustrate the global consensus regarding a number of vital issues that are important to all Orthodox women. As the Orthodox theological coordinator for both the Istanbul and Damascus conferences, Dr. FitzGerald related some of the concerns of the delegates at these conferences: "even regarding ministries which we know are appropriate to the laity, there appears to be an issue of inequity regarding the ministry of laywomen." As examples, she cited the dissimilar ways in which infants are churched, the welcoming of only male acolytes (altar servers) and tonsured chanters. She concluded by emphasizing that when we speak of women’s public service to the Church, we must be "careful to differentiate between the cultural norms of the time and our life-giving theology." During the question and answer session, many conferencees shared some of their own experiences in the Church.

Many of these topics were further developed during the afternoon breakout sessions. Topics included: Educating Our Children and Ourselves in the Faith: In our Parishes; the Female Diaconate; Language and Imagery in Worship: Translations and Hymnography; Saints of Our Day–An Oral History Project; and Women and the Writings of the Fathers/Mothers of the Church. Once again, participants attended the session of their choice.

In the late afternoon the conferencees gathered once again for the closing plenary. First, everyone was divided into small discussion groups (determined by the icon print they had received during registration) during which they had the opportunity to refer back to the ministry worksheet that had been introduced at the beginning of the conference and to reflect on their understanding of the questions. In addition, everyone had the opportunity to evaluate the conference and to begin to address the question, "where do we go from here?" One universal answer was to have more conferences for Orthodox women. (We have already received several inquiries about replicating this past conference in other major metropolitan areas in the United States including Chicago, Washington, D.C., Berkeley and the Seattle/Portland area.)

Valerie Zahirsky, M. Div., who led the education breakout sessions, gave a closing mediation on the conference. She highlighted the events of the conference and set the mood for returning to our home parishes. As a final serenade, Bonnie Michal, musical coordinator for the conference, assembled a quartet to bid the conferencees a peaceful farewell by singing the French Orthodox setting of, "I leave you my peace."

With the glow of the conference still with us, we turn our attention back to publishing the issues of The St. Nina Quarterly with a renewed spirit and common purpose. Our experience and our understanding of our Church continues to grow. Our celebration of the Divine Liturgy at the conference was, as one participant said,

the most beautiful, peaceful, prayerful, uplifting Liturgy that I had ever attended. It was wonderful to pray where so many women were using their gifts for the glory of God–iconographers, chanters, readers, homilists. . . .

Truly, as we proclaim in the motto of the Quarterly, "To each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the Common good." [1 Corinthians 12:7]

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For more information regarding the Gifts of the Spirit Conference, including tapes of the main talks or the St. Nina Quarterly, please contact The St. Nina Quarterly, PO Box 397252, Cambridge, MA 02139. EmailW.O.M.E.N.

The St. Nina Quarterly plans to publish an issue devoted to the conference including the main talks, a synopsis of the various breakout sessions, the ministry worksheet, the sermon, reflections and pictures.

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It is not permitted to a woman to speak in the church; but neither is it permitted her to teach, nor to baptize, nor to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, nor to say sacerdotal office. De Virginibus Velandis, 4.

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